School me on these rules

"Launch area will accommodate launches up to the full NAR Model Rocket Safety Code. No High Power."

Sooooo... what is the largest motor I can use?

Aerotech 137G80-BT

CTI 159G54-RL

A combination of motors less than 320 N-secs and with less than 125g of propellant. The rocket loaded on the pad must be less than 1,500 grams (53 ounces).

This is overridden by whatever rules the club and RSO decide is best for the launch site.

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jsdemar said:

This is overridden by whatever rules the club and RSO decide is best for the launch site.

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FlyingMonkey said:

"Launch area will accommodate launches up to the full NAR Model Rocket Safety Code. No High Power."

Sooooo... what is the largest motor I can use?

Click to expand...

Just to reinforce the previous replies, the high power threshold involves several measures besides impulse. You'll see them repeated in rule #7 here: https://www.nar.org/safety-information/model-rocket-safety-code/ The quick and dirty answer to your question is G80. Did you get the rule you quoted from a club website ? If so, it's always best to talk to those folks directly about their flying field rules.

FlyingMonkey said:

"Launch area will accommodate launches up to the full NAR Model Rocket Safety Code. No High Power."

Sooooo... what is the largest motor I can use?

Click to expand...

The BEST answer will come from the person who wrote the above sentence.

The NAR model rocket (not high power) safety code allows the use of a cluster of two G motors on a launch site where the shortest side is 1500'

Thank you! Quick and dirty is all I needed.

The field is a giant dry lake bed. Almost endless. I was curious what I might see fly out there. I'm about to build a Lance Delta which will be my first rocket worth driving waaaay out there to launch.

Cesaroni motors are Classified as High Power by the CA State Fire Marshal - even those that should be Classified as Model Rocket Motors.

insurance would be void if you fly Cesaroni at a legal Model Rocket launch in CA.

High Power Motors can only be fired at permitted High Power Rocket Launches.

The NAR Model Rocket Safety Code is online and defines the max weight and total impulse.

There are hyperlinks to the NARMRSC in the pdf online.

shreadvector said:

There are hyperlinks to the NARMRSC in the pdf online.

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Got it. I'm gonna try to make it to the Lucerne launch next time around.
I tried using the email I have for the club but was told it was the old one.

shreadvector said:

Cesaroni motors are Classified as High Power by the CA State Fire Marshal - even those that should be Classified as Model Rocket Motors.

insurance would be void if you fly Cesaroni at a legal Model Rocket launch in CA.

High Power Motors can only be fired at permitted High Power Rocket Launches.

The NAR Model Rocket Safety Code is online and defines the max weight and total impulse.

Click to expand...

We asked John Hochheimer about this specific item a few months ago regarding CTI motors at Fiesta Island and got this response:

"You would be in compliance with our insurance coverage as long as you practice the appropriate safety code requirements for the motors being used. From your description, you are meeting the distance requirements for G motors on the HPR safety code, so you are good from an insurance perspective. Since you are conforming to the higher standard, there is not really any gray area for interpretation with respect to the CA classification of HPR vs. Model Rocket codes.

John"

CTI motors that fit the definition of a model rocket motor ARE NAR-legal. Lots of TARC teams use them, mainly due to the wider variety of thrust curves that they have vs Aerotech. They're also CA OSFM certified... if they weren't you couldn't fly them here at all. Like Loki...

cerving said:

CTI motors that fit the definition of a model rocket motor ARE NAR-legal. Lots of TARC teams use them, mainly due to the wider variety of thrust curves that they have vs Aerotech. They're also CA OSFM certified... if they weren't you couldn't fly them here at all. Like Loki...

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They are CA OSFM Classified as High Power Rocket Motors.

HPR motors can ONLY legally be fired in CA at a fullylegal and permitted High Power Rocket launch.

If you do not have a permit for a High power launch, then firing these motors would violate the state fire regulations and your insurance would be VOID because you did not launch legally.

A launch conducted under a Model Rocket launching permit only (not HPR permit) cannot allow HPR motors to be fired.

It also can violate your land use permit (from the park or other government entity) if the permit specified that it was a Model Rocket launch.

This is crystal clear.

We advise TARC teams to launch their Cesaroni motors ONLY at a fully legal and permitted High Power Rocket launch. If they choose to ignore our advice, we can't control that beyond not allowing them to launch at our legal and permitted Model Rocket launches.

SOLUTION: have Cesaroni get their model rocket class motors reclassified by the CA OSFM. We had the law revised as of Jan 1, 2016 and have informed them several times. They have not done so, so it is up to the rest of you who want to launch them as Model Rockets to contact them and ask them to get them re-classified.

If you don't want to do that, you can stick to Estes and Aerotech Model Rocket motors. or drive to the legal High Power Rocket launches, like those hosted by ROC monthly.

shreadvector said:

They are CA OSFM Classified as High Power Rocket Motors.

HPR motors can ONLY legally be fired in CA at a fullylegal and permitted High Power Rocket launch.

If you do not have a permit for a High power launch, then firing these motors would violate the state fire regulations and your insurance would be VOID because you did not launch legally.

A launch conducted under a Model Rocket launching permit only (not HPR permit) cannot allow HPR motors to be fired.

It also can violate your land use permit (from the park or other government entity) if the permit specified that it was a Model Rocket launch.

This is crystal clear.

We advise TARC teams to launch their Cesaroni motors ONLY at a fully legal and permitted High Power Rocket launch. If they choose to ignore our advice, we can't control that beyond not allowing them to launch at our legal and permitted Model Rocket launches.

SOLUTION: have Cesaroni get their model rocket class motors reclassified by the CA OSFM. We had the law revised as of Jan 1, 2016 and have informed them several times. They have not done so, so it is up to the rest of you who want to launch them as Model Rockets to contact them and ask them to get them re-classified.

If you don't want to do that, you can stick to Estes and Aerotech Model Rocket motors. or drive to the legal High Power Rocket launches, like those hosted by ROC monthly.

Click to expand...

What's the sticking point that classifies CTI as high power? The metallic casing?

Exactimator said:

What's the sticking point that classifies CTI as high power? The metallic casing?

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For a long time after Reloadable motors were recognized by the N.F.P.A., the CSFM said that they were going to ignore the lines in the State Law (Health & Safety Code) that prohibited metallic casings and handling of ingredients. They said they would get the law revised when they had time. They never did that.

Then there was "unpleasantness" with a certain motor making personality. When they charged him with making and selling motors illegally, he said something to the effect of "well if you're going to cite me for this part of the law/regulations, then you need to ENFORCE ALL of the LAW on ALL of the manufacturers".

The CSFM then sent letters to the manufacturers telling them that all reloadable motors submitted for Classification would need to be High Power Rocket Motors. And, they would reclassify any already classified as Model Rockets for free if they requested it.

Aerotech never requested the reclassification.

CTI was just starting to submit MR sized motors and they were told they had to be HPR motors.

I tried to get our community to support a change to the law. I met MASSIVE resistance from loud people in the lower part of CA who were completely WRONG. Nothing happened for 2 years.

Then I met with my State Senator and handed him the proposed rewording of the two paragraphs. I got excellent support and folks in central CA even went to Sacramento to testify at a hearing (including TARC students). Within a year it was passed and became law.

I informed Aerotech and CTI. CTI was busy and did not request reclassification. Then they had the fire. it has been a long time and I had contacted them again, but still nothing. I will not contact them again. That is up to everyone else who cares.

Aerotech has submitted new motors since the law change and they are Model Rocket motors, including the 24/60 RMS new reloads. This is one reason there were no new reloads for that casing for so many years.

I can't find anything in the OSFM docs regarding specific manufacturers names or hardware; only the note about non-metallic casings in the health & human safety section. Can you post a link to the info you're explaining?

Exactimator said:

I can't find anything in the OSFM docs regarding specific manufacturers names or hardware; only the note about non-metallic casings in the health & human safety section. Can you post a link to the info you're explaining?

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i will assume you are looking at the out of date study guide for fireworks or something like that.

The LAW is the CA Health & Safety Code.

The regulations are established by the CSFM and if they are in conflict with the LAW or they become in conflict after the LAW is changed, then that portion of the regulations is no longer valid. in other words, regulations cannot over-ride the LAW. And a study guide, which is a reference document and not the source data, is not to be used in place of the actual LAW or Regulations.

Here are some past threads. Some have links in them. I do not have time to find them all for you.

https://www.rocketryforum.com/threa...erning-authorities.149890/page-2#post-1889349

https://www.rocketryforum.com/threads/new-ca-motor-regulations.133765/

https://www.rocketryforum.com/threa...del-rocketry-code-ab-467.125985/#post-1462875

The metal motor casing thing makes no sense... local hobby shops have been selling AT Hobbyline RMS's for years, way before the CA laws were changed. They've been flown everywhere I've ever been, including the SCRA launch site, and I'm pretty sure that CTI model rocket motors have been flown by TARC teams too.

cerving said:

The metal motor casing thing makes no sense... local hobby shops have been selling AT Hobbyline RMS's for years, way before the CA laws were changed. They've been flown everywhere I've ever been, including the SCRA launch site, and I'm pretty sure that CTI model rocket motors have been flown by TARC teams too.

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Federal law (CPSC) requires that metal cased motors be sold only to those who are 18 and up.

Steve Shannon said:

Federal law (CPSC) requires that metal cased motors be sold only to those who are 18 and up.

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True, but those under 18 can USE them under the supervision of an adult (i.e. TARC mentor).

cerving said:

True, but those under 18 can USE them under the supervision of an adult (i.e. TARC mentor).

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That’s correct and I’m not taking CSFM’s side, just pointing out the law.

cerving said:

The metal motor casing thing makes no sense... local hobby shops have been selling AT Hobbyline RMS's for years, way before the CA laws were changed. They've been flown everywhere I've ever been, including the SCRA launch site, and I'm pretty sure that CTI model rocket motors have been flown by TARC teams too.

Click to expand...

Read all the words I have typed in this thread and the referenced threads. You are not following the linear chronology.
I wii not retype it all.