New computer: thoughts? input? avoid? recommendations?

So, the annual Christmas bonus this year should be put towards a new household computer. Our current model is old (abut 7 yrs) and is showing its age / running slow, especially with Windows 10...

The question is:
Desktop or laptop?
Nvidia or ATI?

We've always had a desktop. Although the thought of a gaming laptop is intriguing, as we can take it with us on vacation & such. We did briefly have a laptop that was supposed to be gaming-ready, but found it a little .. less that expected.. The desktop was still superior .. at the time! And was running Win 7.. The laptop was running Vista..

It's only the wife & I who use it. We game quite a bit with it, and she does her office & business stuff on it.. I do the occasional CAD stuff, and also do photo editing. So, there is a need for good / current graphics & 3D capability. And, I've always been a Nvidia guy, but had issues when we changed over to win 10.. We would plug in a keyboard & mouse, and our larger monitor when at home, which would be most of the time..

I am starting to look, but am a little out of date / touch with a lot of the newer tech, trends, lingo, and such.. I've typically had a custom PC built for me, by the company's IT supplier*: choosing the video card, RAM & such.. But is that still necessary? Can a laptop rival a desktop PC for graphics speed for gaming & some CAD work? And at the same cost? Windows 10 has left me a little jaded, so searching reviews & offerings may or may not be as honest as I would want / expect.. (And then the endless stream of ads for PCs & laptops!!)

So, thoughts? comments? opinions? recommendations? scary stories?


* I used to work at a small company, so we had our IT needs farmed out. I could get a deal on a new PC.. Now, I'm at a company that has an internal IT dept.. I will ask them for their opinion, but want a wider audience / opinion poll since I'll be 'going at it alone'.

STAY AWAY FROM DELL. VERY FAR AWAY....
Laptops are good because of their mobility, but are completely restricted in regards to hardware upgrades. Single board computers, like the Raspberry Pi 4, are making great strides in MIPs per dollar.

Yeah, that is one thing I did read about, that a lot of the "out of the box" PCs are loaded with adware & bloated with extras & add-ons you really don't want or need. If I recall, Compaqs had their cards soldered into the slots, so upgrading was impossible.

That is a concern with a laptop, that upgrading is very limited.. and that the life of the laptop is [apparently / possibly] much shorter than a desktop..

I couldn't live without both a good desktop (I have 3, one for general family use, one for CAD and one linux box), and a laptop ( I can't be tied down to a desktop location).

I have had good luck with Dell laptops, I have an XPS13 for several years now no issues and I am happy with it. My college children have higher end Lenovo's and HP and both went back for service.

Although desktops are upgradeable I have never had the need other than increasing hard drive space. Our office laptop is 8 years old and still serves our needs.

You will not find a gaming laptop that can touch a gaming desktop, not in the same price range anyway. They can cram a lot into that small space sure and then you have heat issues. The higher end desktops will use the larger motherboards (mobos) to allow for, aside from room for upgrades, airflow. It's why my old desktop had 5 case fans alone, another on the power supply, two on the graphics card, and an upgraded CPU cooler.
And of course liquid cooling is nice. It is available in a laptop but it is impractical and cumbersome.

Desktops can utilize more and faster RAM, more and bigger graphics cards, larger power supplies, more speakers, more displays, and of course more drives. Cram that thing full of SSDs and set up a RAID, wicked fast.

Yes avoid Dell altogether. Laptop wise, HP or Lenovo are okay for basic stuff.

I've always like AMD and ATI (Radeon), which is owned by AMD. But Nvidia is just as good. I've been out of the loop a while myself so I don't know the features of either...Intel/AMD or Radeon/Nvidia or ASUS/MSI/Gigabyte and so on.

Desktop or laptop, custom is the best way to go. You don't get all the adware and unnecessary garbage that drags down the machine. Ibuypower, cyberpowerpc, Google will reveal several companies. Alienware is Dell just without stupid Dell form factor, meaning you can put in off the shelf parts.

Personally I would avoid crap like McAfee and Norton as well. I've fixed computers that were locked up simply because McAfee was uninstalled.

I use my laptop more than my desktop nowadays. My desktop is 10+ years old and showing it's age. My laptop is less than a year old, but the old desktop still holds it's own with some things. Especially OR for some reason. Sims for my ViperIV uses airstarts and dual deploy and will not finish running on my laptop, not sure why. Maybe Windblows 10.

The only advantage laptops have is portability. The more stuff crammed into the less portable it becomes. One reason is weight of course another is battery capacity.

https://www.xidax.com/
This is the company I went with for my custom built PC. The best part is that their customer service is excellent and quick to respond (even on a Friday afternoon :O) I went with the X6 case as I liked the curved edge on the front but they have a large number of options.

dr wogz said:

So, the annual Christmas bonus this year should be put towards a new household computer. Our current model is old (abut 7 yrs) and is showing its age / running slow, especially with Windows 10...

The question is:
Desktop or laptop?
Nvidia or ATI?

Click to expand...

No question: desktop. Laptops that approach what gaming desktops can do are more expensive and, unlike a desktop, everything inside cannot be gradually updated over time. The laptop's SSD and memory can be upgraded in most cases, of course. The CPU and GPU can't be, but can be in a desktop. Battery life of gaming laptops is usually horrible. I think the only time a gaming laptop is called for is if you are a hard core gamer who wants to travel with a game machine or take it to a locally networked game at a friend's house. For the latter, many game fanatics make "miniature" portable desktop systems instead of buying laptops.

Right now and probably for years to come, AMD CPUs are destroying Intel CPUs. The 1st generation AMD Ryzen CPUs absolutely trounced Intel CPUs on price/ performance, but were slightly behind on single thread performance. The 3rd generation now trounces Intel even more on price/performance AND leads in single thread performance. Also, unlike Intel lately, AMD CPU socket longevity is much longer allowing you to drop a newer generation AMD CPU into your "old" motherboard. AMD right now has the AM4 socket which is compatible with the three Ryzen generation up to now, but I think they'll be coming out with a new socket for their 4th generation.

Right now, from what I've read, nVidia is ahead of AMD (who bought ATI). That will possibly change in 2020.

It also depends upon what you want to spend. For max price/performance, I'd buy a well reviewed AM4 gaming motherboard board which is Ryzen gen 2 compatible which are even cheaper than before now that gen 3 is out and buy an even cheaper than before (since gen 3 is out) Ryzen 5 2600 or Ryzen 7 2700 (the "2" in 2x00 indicates gen 2) CPU to put on it. Then, after they come down in price after gen 4 comes out, buy a Ryzen gen 3 CPU. You won't be able to take advantage of all of the gen 3 CPU improvements on a gen 2 motherboard, but those you can't aren't tremendously important.

Two thoughts:
1. For <$300, you can get a used i5-7500 PC with SSD and at least 8 GB RAM, on eBay, off-lease business machines with Win10Pro. Optiplex, ProDesk, that sort of thing. These are small form factor or mini-tower based on your preference. Here's one example:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/HP-ProDesk...095357?hash=item593dedf93d:g:XMMAAOSwBsld8tKH
One that is i5-6500 runs my home camera recording system; another is my younger son's desktop. Great bang for the buck.

2. For about $500, I built my older son's desktop around a Ryzen 3400G. Blazing fast; he's a gamer.

Would never consider buying a new pre-built PC.

Winston said:

......

Right now and probably for years to come, AMD CPUs are destroying Intel CPUs. The 1st generation AMD Ryzen CPUs absolutely trounced Intel CPUs on price/ performance, but were slightly behind on single thread performance. The 3rd generation now trounces Intel even more on price/performance AND leads in single thread performance. Also, unlike Intel lately, AMD CPU socket longevity is much longer allowing you to drop a newer generation AMD CPU into your "old" motherboard. AMD right now has the AM4 socket which is compatible with the three Ryzen generation up to now, but I think they'll be coming out with a new socket for their 4th generation.

....

Click to expand...

AMD was destroying Intel back when I bought mine all those years ago. I have a Phenom Black. Back then Intel bragged about 6 or 8 cores but only a few were actually usable, like a V8 with 5 spark plugs. AMD is easier to overclock, or at least was.
Intel is like Apple where AMD is Android. If you want something that simply works and you are okay with it working well, then get Intel. But if you want something that works superbly; you have much more control over; you want to peek inside and see what it is doing; and want it to scream (in a good way), and you are an adult who can tie your own shoes (that's a joke toward Apple more than Intel ), go with AMD.

MikeyDSlagle said:

AMD was destroying Intel back when I bought mine all those years ago. I have a Phenom Black. Back then Intel bragged about 6 or 8 cores but only a few were actually usable, like a V8 with 5 spark plugs. AMD is easier to overclock, or at least was.
Intel is like Apple where AMD is Android. If you want something that simply works and you are okay with it working well, then get Intel. But if you want something that works superbly; you have much more control over; you want to peek inside and see what it is doing; and want it to scream (in a good way), and you are an adult who can tie your own shoes (that's a joke toward Apple more than Intel ), go with AMD.

Click to expand...

I had a Phenom X4 9850 Black in a build a while back and really liked it. That said, I don't think your Apple and Android analogy is accurate. Intel CPUs have pretty consistently drawn less power for the same performance, which when you're overclocking or really pushing a CPU starts to make a difference. I'm pretty sure they use different methods to define power consumption, but my Intel builds have run consistently cooler at similar loads to comparable AMD setups. I'm not sure what you mean by peek inside, either. I've got an i7 7700k and can screw around with just as many settings as I can on a Ryzen, and the comparable Intel CPUs seem to have a little more "headroom" due to the lower power consumption. I don't really run anything overclocked and kind of play around with it for fun, but I haven't had a harder time screwing up settings on my Intel setups than with my AMD stuff.

Intel almost killed themselves with Northwood and Itanium.
Then they almost killed AMD with illegal business practices.
That helped hold AMD off long enough to copy x86_64 extensions and HT as QPI.
Then Intel let their process advantage slip and AMD is giving it to them with both boots.

It's a good year to be a CPU consumer.

I should also mention that I'm not a fan of Windows 10, but it is what we have, and what we'll get, and is what it is..

And I don't know what or how to believe the hype about privacy, google & all, marketing, adware, ad services, etc..

dr wogz said:

I should also mention that I'm not a fan of Windows 10, but it is what we have, and what we'll get, and is what it is..

And I don't know what or how to believe the hype about privacy, google & all, marketing, adware, ad services, etc..

Click to expand...

Just turn off all the tracking things (you are prompted during installation) and you can Google (ironic, isn't it?) some further steps to reduce W10 tracking. Just be sure to get W10PRO not home. Pro gives more control, such as better ability to defer updates for a period of time. Other than built-in Windows antivirus, I defer updates for about a month to let the rough edges get knocked off.

How good are your building skills? Do you think you could build one from scratch? If so that's the route I'd go. And right now AMD Ryzen processors are kicking Intel butt. I just built a computer for a friend's son who is starting up a CNC shop. He needed something that could handle SolidWorks. I ended up building a nice CAD machine for $700. And it is fast!!! And if you have a valid Windows 7 key you can still use it to install Windows 10. You can download the latest version on the Microsoft website. And the nice thing is that Microsoft isn't installing all the crapware currently like they started out with. I guess they actually listened to customers.

AMD Ryzen 5 2600 processor 6 cores/12 threads
AMD 100-505974 - AMD FirePro W5100 Graphic Card - 4 GB GDDR5 (the most expensive component)
MSI Gaming Mobo
16 GB DDR4 RAM (2 x 8)
ADATA XPG SX8200 Pro 512 GB M.2 NVMe SSD
Hitachi 2T Hard drive
Seasonic 450W PSU
Thermaltake Versa H22 mid-tower case

dr wogz said:

I should also mention that I'm not a fan of Windows 10, but it is what we have, and what we'll get, and is what it is..

And I don't know what or how to believe the hype about privacy, google & all, marketing, adware, ad services, etc..

Click to expand...

If you build a machine & install Win 10 do NOT do the standard install. It will leave all sorts of back doors open for MS to see what you're up to.Do a custom install and shut all the back doors.

And there are a number of programs, free & paid, that allow one to customize how Win 10 looks & behaves. Stardock's Start 10 ($5) is one of them.

MikeyDSlagle said:

AMD was destroying Intel back when I bought mine all those years ago. I have a Phenom Black. Back then Intel bragged about 6 or 8 cores but only a few were actually usable, like a V8 with 5 spark plugs. AMD is easier to overclock, or at least was.
Intel is like Apple where AMD is Android. If you want something that simply works and you are okay with it working well, then get Intel. But if you want something that works superbly; you have much more control over; you want to peek inside and see what it is doing; and want it to scream (in a good way), and you are an adult who can tie your own shoes (that's a joke toward Apple more than Intel ), go with AMD.

Click to expand...

Yep, AMD is BACK to what they used to be AND MORE. They were for a LONG time the best price/performance choice until they went astray for many years with a really lousy architecture.

Their current Ryzen Infinity Fabric architecture allows a multi-core CPU to be broken down into smaller dies which results in MUCH higher yields per wafer and, therefore, an inherently cheaper CPU. PLUS, that allows this which drives the per-CPU cost down even further:

AMD Zen 2

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zen_2

The multi-chip-module approach allows using the same chips for different types of processors. The CPU on the left, aimed primarily at the general consumer market, uses a smaller IO die and up to two Core Complex Dies (CCDs), whereas server processors (pictured on the right) use a larger IO die and up to eight CCDs.

Intel makes huge, single, monolithic dies which are far more expensive because of lower yield. They will remain TOAST against AMD until they come up with their own Infinity Fabric-like architecture or better. They fully realize that but aren't, of course, explicitly saying that. You just need to watch what they're doing:

Intel's Interconnected Future: Combining Chiplets, EMIB, and Foveros
April 17, 2019

https://www.anandtech.com/show/14211/intels-interconnected-future-chipslets-emib-foveros

No issues building a machine. I just don't know all the lingo & acronyms, and why one is better than the other..

(the last PC I built, the CPU was known as a 'Pentium'!)

How does one go about getting Win 10 pro?

How do you know what is a back door, and what is a legit need?

dhbarr said:

Then they almost killed AMD with illegal business practices.

Click to expand...

Exactly!

Intel - Anti-Competitive, Anti-Consumer, Anti-Technology
Jul 26, 2017



BTW, I used to pay VERY close attention to CPU tech back when Intel didn't have a virtual monopoly. After they did, I didn't. I am now kicking myself because if I had still been paying attention I could have made an absolute killing with AMD stock! $1.85/share (28 Aug 2015) to $42.60/share (16 Dec 2019)!

dr wogz said:

How does one go about getting Win 10 pro?

Click to expand...

There are sites where you can get very cheap license keys to be used with a copy of the Windows OS downloaded from Intel, but even though I've seen claims that this is legal, I doubt that it is. The keys are supposedly from bulk licenses meant for businesses and I really doubt that the associated user license agreement allows keys to be sold to people not part of the business or corporation.

Buy a Microsoft OEM DVD from a trustworthy vendor. Personally, I always want to go with a hard copy (DVD) instead of just a download or flash drive.

Don't waste your time building one. Get a Dell or Lenovo. i5/i7 with an SSD. AMD Ryzen Depending on what sale they are having you may be better off getting the SSD separately and putting it in yourself. Add an Nvidia card for however much money you want to spend, probably a 1650 is fine. 8GB of RAM is fine, you can upgrade to 16GB if you are working with really large photos or videos.

Dell Alienware are really nice PCs. They've got an i5/1650/8GB/1TB HDD for $1100. Throw in a 1TB Samsung SSD from Amazon and you are all set. It comes with a 1 yr warranty, it's worth spending a couple of bucks to bump it to 3 years.

Windows Home is fine. Uninstall the apps you don't want.

FWIW I'm speaking with 30 years of PC building/repair experience. Currently a systems administrator with a building full of Dell/Lenovo PCs.

cheers

markg said:

Don't waste your time building one. Get a Dell or Lenovo. i5/i7 with an SSD. AMD Ryzen Depending on what sale they are having you may be better off getting the SSD separately and putting it in yourself. Add an Nvidia card for however much money you want to spend, probably a 1650 is fine. 8GB of RAM is fine, you can upgrade to 16GB if you are working with really large photos or videos.

Dell Alienware are really nice PCs. They've got an i5/1650/8GB/1TB HDD for $1100. Throw in a 1TB Samsung SSD from Amazon and you are all set. It comes with a 1 yr warranty, it's worth spending a couple of bucks to bump it to 3 years.

Windows Home is fine. Uninstall the apps you don't want.

FWIW I'm speaking with 30 years of PC building/repair experience. Currently a systems administrator with a building full of Dell/Lenovo PCs.

cheers

Click to expand...

I agree. My perception was that he wanted to build it himself.

Having worked there for a while, an Intel processor is my dead last choice. AMD whenever possible. I've got many stories about how Intel screwed their customers, suppliers, and employees.

I just replaced my Alienware Aurora R4 (6TB RAID 0 drive C and 2 10TB drives) with a Dell XPS 8930. The Aurora couldn't boot from a SSD, windows 7 was running out, and it was never stable. Random reboots every few hours to every few days. The Aurora was running a 4930K at 4.1 GHz all 6 cores.
I purchased the XPS with a single 2TB M.2NVMe drive C and moved the 2 10TB drives to the new computer. This computer is running a I9 9900 at standard speed.

At work most of us are running 6yo i7 16gb Dell Optiplex desktops and Lattitudes laptops. and are upgrading w7 to w10 with no signs needing a hardware refresh. I am wanting to see how long before many start to fail/degrade. I still have some i5 8gb out there that are being upgraded to w10, those are not end user machines, ie conference rooms...

We've had an Asus tablet that did really well.

Personal bias: used Thinkpad t-series laptops in college & use them at work, a bit square and fairly resilient.

Not necessarily racecars though.

I just built an enthusiast desktop. Some takeaways:

Just get avryzen 3600x. It'll last you a decade at least. It's fast, clocks itself up and down appropriately, and the new chips today are so efficient, you don't need water-cooling unless you really plan to up voltage and clocks but honestly, those gains are minimal and vanity today. There are great air coolers that are near dead silent and although some money, not as much as water systems.

3600 ram, cause ryzen 3k is most efficient with it and loves tight memory timings. You won't need more than 16gig for the next decade. Unless your encoding 4k YouTube videos or compiling huge code while gaming, that's all you'll need for a long time. M.2 drives are new and plug into the motherboard, size of a Wrigley's gumstick. They're fast. Obscenely fast. Get a 500gig for your OS drive. Graphics. You do not need a top end 2080 or even 2070 card unless you are driving a 4k monitor or a 21:9 1440, which I'm using and game well with a 1070gtx....although I'm at the limit of that card. Especially if your driving a 1080 widescreen, a 2060 or 5700 and card will be fine...and that 5700 is awesome. Look into freesync vs. gsync if you game a lot and are monitor shopping as well.

You do not need a thousand watts unless you are driving dual cards and overclocking...and even then, you don't need that. A 500-600 is all you need in today's world and it also may be too much.

And get a case that compliments the workspace. A nice art piece is pleasant instead of a black box under the desk that's forgotten about and packs up in dust.

That's my takeaway. You can shop all around for Intel v. AMD and drive yourself nuts but for the money and value, 3600x a day long. I run an 8 core 3700x and will never use it's potential. If you are on a budget and want cores, look at the 2700x 8-core, it's on sale. And if so consider 3200 ram for that.

Cybertron.com
Made in the USA, they will build it the way you want (suggest AMD).
They will negotiate the final price as well.
I'll never buy any where else the rest of my life.
Ask for Bill Workman, greatest sales specialist they have.
Did everything through Email, but ya can call if ya want to.
Excellent Customer Service, warranty and free shipping if you have a problem.
Business Solutions, Gaming, Multi Monitor solutions, and every day use.
I'll be buying one for my son my next back SSI check in 4 months.
Dual duty, Gaming and college. May, or may not, be a lap top.

Rob40 said:

you don't need water-cooling unless you really plan to up voltage and clocks but honestly, those gains are minimal and vanity today

Click to expand...

Yeah, I've never overclocked anything. As far as I'm concerned, that's mainly for seriously competitive gamers who want to up their FPS in games, people doing CAD or media production. On PITA water cooling, fortunately the feature size on AMD CPUs (now 7nm!) allow a lot of cores yet amazingly low TDP.

7nm is already incredibly difficult:

https://www.rocketryforum.com/threa...l-cool-electronics.133919/page-4#post-1781814

So the rapid progression to 5nm is even more amazing:

AMD's next-gen Zen 4 could arrive on new 5nm or 6nm in 2021 - Intel struggles to get to 10nm, AMD is already at 7nm and we're already talking 5nm/6nm CPUs with Zen 4

https://www.tweaktown.com/news/65832/amds-next-gen-zen-4-arrive-new-5nm-6nm-2021/index.html

dr wogz said:

No issues building a machine. I just don't know all the lingo & acronyms, and why one is better than the other..

(the last PC I built, the CPU was known as a 'Pentium'!)

How does one go about getting Win 10 pro?

How do you know what is a back door, and what is a legit need?

Click to expand...

As someone who built the computer he is typing at, pc terms don't change much. Google is an excellent resource if you don't know what, say, the advantage of a pcie ssd is. Windows 10 (home and pro versions) is available from any decent place that sells computers. As a programmer, anything that allows anyone else so see something from your computer without you sending it to them is a back door. Whether or not it is legit is something you will have to decide for yourself.

I'm also really out of touch, and my computer out of date. In the past I've been an nVidia guy, mainly because I likes SLI better than ATI's offering. And in particular, I've been very happy with the performance, price, and reliability of nVidia chipset cards from eVGA.

Decide how much RAM you need then double it. Decide how much hard drive you need and then double it.

I agree win Winston about backing off from the bleeding edge. You get very good performance and lots better price for performance by going one and only one generation back.