Vendor Boycotts

rfjustin said:

I could not agree more on both points. My orders with Madcow have been flawless. Since Madcow does not sell products that are not in stock, that is the most effective shield for customers.

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While I personally do not have a "dog in this fight" since I've never ordered from Madcow, nor do I have any idea who "CT" is... I will say this. Whenever I order rocketry products, I do NOT place an order for something that is not in stock! Most of my stuff has come from a vendor in my neighboring state of GA, and he fulfills my orders and has them on my doorstep within 2-3 days. If something he lists is not in stock and waiting on the supplier to fill orders, I simply don't order it and find an alternative!

The fact that MC will not sell something that is not in stock is a HUGE plus in my opinion, and I'll check them out next time I need to place an order and my preferred dealer doesn't have it in stock!

GaryT said:

And where are you getting your facts from?? You haven't a clue as to what your talking about... this entire thread should! have been shut down long ago.. "ALMOST" everything here is Here say, I know a guy, this person said that, I heard this etc etc not 1 single person here should be posting on this subject unless something actually and unequivocally happened to them and that's only after they made every effort to contact the vendor and clear said trouble up first.

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I have a near weekly log of emails to the vendor with replies promising "two weeks" for the past year. It's actually become a running joke in our club who are all aware of the situation. And yes, I do know quite a bit of the background and the history which is why I've been VERY patient. However, behaviors don't seem to be changing if it's been a year and 30+ emails and calls later. "Communicating" with dollar losses is a much more poignant way to elicit change.

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swatkat said:

I have a near weekly log of emails to the vendor with replies promising "two weeks" for the past year. It's actually become a running joke in our club who are all aware of the situation. And yes, I do know quite a bit of the background and the history which is why I've been VERY patient. However, behaviors don't seem to be changing if it's been a year and 30+ emails and calls later. "Communicating" with dollar losses is a much more poignant way to elicit change.

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PM sent

rfjustin said:

"this entire thread should! have been shut down long ago"

Why sir? John's original intention for this thread was to ask folks to not boycott a vendor based on issues encountered with a manufacturer. That was John's original ask, which in my opinion was perfectly reasonable.

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Thanks sir. I will be requesting that the mods clean up this thread, again.

The thread should not be shut down but perhaps moderated to stay on topic.

This thread is not about litigating the reputation of a rocketry component manufacturer. It is about should a dealer be held responsible for a supplier's reputation even the dealers reputation is solid.

No mods, having too much fun today!

I must have some kind of luck that is good?
I have never had a "bad" transaction with any vendor (their web site, ebay, amazon, people on TRF or mail orders {giving my age away now}).
In fact, many has sent a small gift or freebee with an order. Sometimes, even without an order.
Nothing has ever come damaged unless I bought it knowingly it was damaged. (kinked body tube comes to mind)
I think Jolly Logic has the best model as a vendor. He sets the price, vendors sell his products AT his price. It's fair to everyone.
He makes X on every item, vendors make X on every item, and if we like, want and use his products we know the cost and you get choose which vendor benefits from your purchase. At least I think so because every where I look, his products are always the same price.
Cut Throat pricing only benefits a few for a short period, and hurts everyone in the long run. Just as Mr. Beans explains.
I have very little money these days, so price IS the deciding factor. In past years that wasn't the case.
I had select few I bought from, and tried others on various odd ball things I might have needed.
One very favorable vendor unfortunately is no longer with us. One has all but got out of rocket hobby. Many are still around.
Vendor-boycotting isn't the answer. I would only do a pre-order from a manufacturer, and only pay when it shipped.
Anything you pay now and ships later from a non-manufacturer is just asking for problems, IMHO.
Isn't this a problem we have seen in recent history with a vendor that closed doors, didn't ship paid for items, didn't return emails and phone calls, had legal problems, etc?

rfjustin said:

1. I only buy CT manufactured components that are in stock. I have never and will never pre-order any.

2. Care to answer my simple question? You buy CT components, do you not? If so, it would be an obvious conflict of interest for you to weigh in here. Do yourself the favor, don't put yourself in that compromised position.

3. Your ask "Can someone tell me the exact item they are waiting for or have paid for and never received?" is not in the context of this thread, but if you want to start a thread on that subject, I'll grab some popcorn, head on over and watch the show!

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I see NO conflict of interested what so ever, YES I buy my parts from CT your point? I'm not a full time Vendor, I also buy from Wildman, Performance Hobbies, Mad Cow Etc, in your thinking should I never post in a thread that concerns them?? It is most definitely the content of this thread, every single person is bad mouthing said manufacture yet I only see ONE person with a problem and even that has its own flaws.

Replied offline with the data.

GaryT said:

It is most definitely the content of this thread, every single person is bad mouthing said manufacture yet I only see ONE person with a problem and even that has its own flaws.

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Granted, the content of the thread has morphed a bit, but discussing who is missing what was not the original context or intent of this thread.

jderimig said:

Thanks sir. I will be requesting that the mods clean up this thread, again.

The thread should not be shut down but perhaps moderated to stay on topic.

This thread is not about litigating the reputation of a rocketry component manufacturer. It is about should a dealer be held responsible for a supplier's reputation even the dealers reputation is solid.

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Here again is my point, Respectfully, your insinuating it the suppliers at fault without knowing any

rfjustin said:

Granted, the content of the thread has morphed a bit, but discussing who is missing what was not the original context or intent of this thread.

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If someone is complaining about it, its work talking about regardless of how the thread started out. I'm talking to the OP so basically your opinion is moot. Have an awesome day.

To me this is kind of simple

1. If I buy something from a vendor that they do not clearly note is not in stock, they are on the hook. I did not buy from the manufacturer.
2. If I buy from a vendor that I know is out of stock and an agreement is made to a delivery date which is then blown with no option given to me for a refund, it is the vendor's fault. Again, I did not buy from the manufacturer.
3. If I buy from a vendor something that is not marked as in stock and do not make a delivery agreement, that is on me. Though if things go awry and I am not likely to see my goods, I will probably never give that vendor my business again.
4. If I buy from a vendor a product based on a material provided by a supplier that has a reputation for poor performance, I hold the vendor responsible, and consider myself dumb.
5. In my simple opinion, the vendor does not have the right to spend money I paid until they can classify it FOB origin.

GaryT said:

Here again is my point, Respectfully, your insinuating it the suppliers at fault without knowing any


If someone is complaining about it, its work talking about regardless of how the thread started out. I'm talking to the OP so basically your opinion is moot. Have an awesome day.

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Gary, go back and read post #1 and tell me where I insinuated anything about anyone?

The only bad experience I ever had with a vendor was some outdated technical info on a tube diameter of a very specific 29mm CF tube and this vendor EVEN resolved the database void weeks later. And my worst experience even with MC wasn’t a bad one. He was jammed full of orders and I was on a deadline. Quite frankly unless a vendor has scammed someone for real I think this boycott X or Y crap is overblown. Most of these vendors bend over backwards for us. You may not get what you want on time but generally the communication is excellent. These vendors live or die on reputation and it shows they try really hard. I’ve heard we should boycott a certain tube manufacturer lol...

Andrew_ASC said:

The only bad experience I ever had with a vendor was some outdated technical info on a tube diameter of a very specific 29mm CF tube and this vendor EVEN resolved the database void weeks later. And my worst experience even with MC wasn’t a bad one. He was jammed full of orders and I was on a deadline. Quite frankly unless a vendor has scammed someone for real I think this boycott X or Y crap is overblown. Most of these vendors bend over backwards for us. You may not get what you want on time but generally the communication is excellent. These vendors live or die on reputation and it shows they try really hard. I’ve heard we should boycott a certain tube manufacturer lol...

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My thoughts exactly Andrew, especially the lol part.

Okay, so if we can't agree on who we should boycott, may I suggest a list of "Approved" FWFG vendors. I know there's a broader thread for approved vendors and such, but as this seems to be specific to FWFG, and we can't reach a consensus on whether or not boycotting is the right thing to do, I call for nominations.

And no one gets to nominate Teddy, that's like cheating. Also, you can't nominate yourself.

Edit: John Beans is allowed to nominate himself.

Heyyyy,,
I heawd dat..
I'm standing right here...
Can't you wait till I leave,, lol..

Teddy

My question to all of this is simple...how is it that some companies are able to obtain parts from the party that shall not be named but other companies and individuals that are still waiting get to keep on waiting? To me it's a slap in the face to see kits rolled out of these parts knowing that others have been left holding a very large bag for a very long time. As far as boycotting this or that, I only boycott unethical behavior such as IP theft or outright lying and obfuscating.

Good question! Some folks have been waiting for over a year on a certain order to a certain vendor!
Yet the kits seemingly keep on flowing to other vendors!

grouch said:

...<snipped>... As far as boycotting this or that, I only boycott unethical behavior such as IP theft or outright lying and obfuscating.

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IP theft? You mean in a hobby where some companies entire product lines are based on the design work of someone else? Unless something is protected by Copyright, Trademark, or Patent, it's not illegal to take a publicly displayed item and copy it. For example, I designed a sanding jig and posted it here, it's not IP theft if someone takes that design and markets it, as I have no legal protection on that design. Unless you are an artist creating original works of art, publicly displaying an object without first protecting it subjects it to fair use. One of the exceptions is Trademarks, which generally can only be established after they have actually been in use.

I'm not a lawyer but I do have and have applied for Trademarks, Copyrights, and Patents, so I have some very expensive experience in this area. I'd like to hear a case that you consider to be IP theft in the rocketry world.


Tony

PS: in reply to Eljay below, perhaps this is a thread derail better left to a new thread. Also, edited for brevity

Perhaps a different thread would be better for that.

manixFan said:

IP theft? You mean in a hobby where some companies entire product lines are based on the design work of someone else? Unless something is protected by Copyright, Trademark, or Patent, it's not illegal to take a publicly displayed item and copy it. For example, I designed a sanding jig and posted it here, it's not IP theft if someone takes that design and markets it, as I have no legal protection on that design. Unless you are an artist creating original works of art, publicly displaying an object without first protecting it subjects it to fair use. One of the exceptions is Trademarks, which generally can only be established after they have actually been in use.

I'm not a lawyer but I do have and have applied for Trademarks, Copyrights, and Patents, so I have some very expensive experience in this area. I'd like to hear a case that you consider to be IP theft in the rocketry world.


Tony

PS: in reply to Eljay below, perhaps this is a thread derail better left to a new thread. Also, edited for brevity

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Not at all worried about the legalities of it. I am concerned with the ethics.