Vendor Boycotts

Please do not boycott honest rocketry vendors because you have an issue with who they use as suppliers.

1. The vendors are doing there best to serve the community, no need to attach their livelihood.
2. Rocketry is a small fraction of the supplier's in question business. Your target will not be damaged in proportion.

I don't agree with this. It's a matter of ethics and personal choice. Vote with your dollars if the products are produced by suppliers you aren't comfortable supporting. Force the marketplace to squeeze poorly performing or unethical suppliers out of the rocketry space.

There are more than one I have blackballed.

llickteig1 said:

I don't agree with this. It's a matter of ethics and personal choice. Vote with your dollars if the products are produced by suppliers you aren't comfortable supporting. Force the marketplace to squeeze poorly performing or unethical suppliers out of the rocketry space.

There are more than one I have blackballed.

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Well, there's that.....

jderimig said:

Please do not boycott honest rocketry vendors because you have an issue with who they use as suppliers.

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I don't think there's any suggestion of dishonesty, but the retailer should be responsible for the customer experience regardless of what wholesalers or other sources he uses.

The retailer takes the money. If the retailer has a supplier that repeatedly fails to deliver, the retailer needs to get a different supplier or refund the money, even if they already sent it to the supplier.

As a consumer I definitely don't find it an acceptable excuse that somebody further down the supply chain is having issues except in very limited circumstances - like if it's very clearly a pre order situation and the vendor makes it clear that there's no real timeline to get, say, an Aerotech case. If the vendor doesn't take care of me in some timely fashion obviously I'm going to be leery of that vendor. I don't know if "boycott" is the right word but why in the world would you buy from somebody who doesn't stand behind what they're selling? Or who uses deceptive practices like selling something they don't have in stock without making it clear what the circumstances are?

I would tend to agree that some sort of "organized boycott" on a vendor is not healthy for this hobby. But choosing not to spend one's own money at a retailer who is unreliable (regardless of the reason) is simply smart shopping.

Really curious what this is actually about!?!

There's a manufacturer (A) of components/kits that has been notoriously unreliable and unresponsive over many years. But he makes great stuff. There is a vendor (B) who sells kits and parts by said manufacturer. People pay B who resells stuff from A. But A fails to deliver, and both customers and B are left holding the bag. Some people feel B should know better and only sell products he has in stock, and not sell items in advance of delivery.

Or something like that.


Tony

There's a thread in this very subforum about the issue. And I just realized it was locked, which means we're contributing to a reopening of a locked thread, which most forums frown on. So I'm done.

manixFan said:

There's a manufacturer (A) of components/kits that has been notoriously unreliable and unresponsive over many years. But he makes great stuff. There is a vendor (B) who sells kits and parts by said manufacturer. People pay B who resells stuff from A. But A fails to deliver, and both customers and B are left holding the bag. Some people feel B should know better and only sell products he has in stock, and not sell items in advance of delivery.

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So, the folks who know that Vendor A is flaky, should boycott any products made by Vendor A.

And Vendor B should have learned by now not to sell anything from Vendor A that he/she does not have in stock already, since Vendor A has proven untrustworthy. If I was a theoretical "Vendor C", I would only carry Vendor A's products if they shipped them to me first and on delivery I paid only after inspecting everything was there and legit.

Cory said:

Really curious what this is actually about!?!

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Cory,

I promise not to start pointing fingers or naming names.

The problem revolves around filament-wound Rocketry components and the fact, with one exception ( which I will not name, by request and out of respect for him), that virtually EVERY Kit Manufacturer gets their components from ONLY ONE SUPPLIER.

Without the SINGLE SUPPLIER, essentially, there would be no composite tubing or nose cones for Rocketry.

The SINGLE SUPPLIER has a long-standing history of "less than stellar" ( I'm being polite ) performance in delivering items, demanding that orders be prepaid in full, in advance, often taking months or even years ( sometimes never ) to, eventually, fill the orders.

Now, when a Rocketeer has ordered Kits or Components and paid in full, in advance, from a Company . . . The Kit Manufacturer then "takes his profit margin" and pays the SINGLE SUPPLIER in full, in advance . . . The SINGLE SUPPLIER, then, either manufactures the ordered items ( or not ) . . . Often, the SINGLE SUPPLIER uses the funds received to fill other orders that he is severely back-ordered on, rather than making the items which have just been ordered . . . A "vicious cycle", then, ensues.

One might, logically, ask the obvious question, " Why didn't the SINGLE SUPPLIER already have the funds necessary to complete all of those previous orders ? " . . . Now, THAT is a DAMN GOOD QUESTION !

Another logical question might be, " Why do Kit Manufacturers keep using the SINGLE SUPPLIER, since he continues to do what he does ? " After some research, I have come to understand that he, basically, keeps them "on the hook" in 3 ways :

(1) He is the "sole source" . . . ( except for the one I can't mention ) . . . A "Monopoly".

(2) He has the "lowest prices" . . . ( by how much is unknown ). I suspect that, if all of the Kit Manufacturers "put their heads together" and approached the "other supplier", the prices could be the same, possibly lower. If that happened, the SINGLE SUPPLIER would be "up the creek, without a paddle" and, likely, go out of business.

(3) The SINGLE SUPPLIER owes so many Kit Manufacturers so much product that they can't risk ticking him off and NEVER getting their items and losing their money. So, they keep ordering, and paying in full, in advance, because of the way the SINGLE SUPPLIER runs his business, where he constantly needs "money up front" to, retroactively, fill orders. At present, he is the ONLY Supplier and has a "Monopoly", at least for now. This needs to CHANGE !

Sorry to be so long-winded . . .

Dave F.

I will choose to spend my money how I see fit. That includes not supporting vendors and suppliers whose business practices conflict with any beliefs I may have. Everyone can choose to do what they'd like. If one of the vendors has an issue with said supplier (I've been waiting now a year for a product I've paid for in advance) they should take it up legally with said supplier.

I will add, that I've been nothing by fair and VERY patient with said supplier, and his responses have been equally fair given his set of circumstances. Would I buy from him again? No, the events that I've had to miss with friends that got their kits from both him and a different vendor that offers the same kit under a different name more than make up for any price deltas or fair responses.
BTW, you assume that 4-5k a year in rocketry items (what I've been spending) won't add up. I'm sure if 10-12 folks of my level of spending stopped doing business with a particular vendor, it would certainly get their attention. Word gets out quickly.

There are two vendors that I will never work with again. Both due to accusations against my character. There was a massive long thread on this topic many moons ago, which was subsequently taken down, but then cross posted to another forum (that has an unhealthy dislike for this one) by me (both vendors have voluntarily left here with their various beefs). If you want to know the story, check there. I don't mention their products or names here, unless someone suggests that I go to X for whatever it is I need. You'll notice that I'm not calling for an all out organized boycott of these vendors, but I sure as hell won't buy from either of them... ever... again. They wouldn't knowingly sell to me either.

Those bridges were not merely burned... They were nuked from orbit, the ashes were collected up, then dumped into steaming pits full of manure.

Put your $ where you feel supported. Plan ahead for possible delays? Try and be patient. Breathe in, breathe out, move on...

I’m fortunate that it is a hobby and not a vocation that could impact my livelihood. I think it would be tough for a kit manufacturer.

I hope things get better.

Bad business practices by a supplier have sunk many of businesses. I would say buy from a reputable business that delivers. I am not picking a side, but I buy from the onfield vendor or from someone I trusty online.

My advice, if you are buying composite Kits or Components, is to confirm with the Vendor, in advance, that they have all items in stock, via email, so you have a record of what was said, before you place an order with them.

On a side note . . . I have often wondered how many Vendors actually do not have many composite components "in stock" but, rather have them "drop-shipped" to Rocketeers to reduce their overhead costs. I sincerely hope the number is zero, or only one or two, but I am curious !

Dave F.

Ez2cDave said:

My advice, if you are buying composite Kits or Components, is to confirm with the Vendor, in advance, that they have all items in stock, via email, so you have a record of what was said, before you place an order with them.

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As a best practice, I think you are spot on.

As you said before, folks getting stiffed by manufacturer CT has been a long standing problem. I recall hearing some very vocal exchanges at LDRS 22 (2003). Some folks that used to fly with us in IL/IA/WI were promised delivery of some large components and were delivered nothing but hot air.

It is interesting to note that the largest vendor of CT goods does not sell anything they don't have in stock, likely for good reason.

As to the original post, vote with your wallet.

I will be more specific in from my original post.
CT has a reputation for screwing over individuals.
CT has a reputation for screwing over a certain vendor.

Madcow Rocketry as far as I know has a good reputation with order fulfillment.
Madcow Rocketry uses CT alledgedly. Madcow's actual supply chain is private information.

IMO Madcow should not be punished because maybe CT is in his supply chain as long as Madcow conducts his business honestly and shields his customer's from CT's faults.

Again that is my opinion that's all.

jderimig said:

I will be more specific in from my original post.
Madcow Rocketry as far as I know has a good reputation with order fulfillment...
IMO Madcow should not be punished because maybe CT is in his supply chain as long as Madcow conducts his business honestly and shields his customer's from CT's faults...

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I could not agree more on both points. My orders with Madcow have been flawless. Since Madcow does not sell products that are not in stock, that is the most effective shield for customers.

jderimig said:

I will be more specific in from my original post.
CT has a reputation for screwing over individuals.
CT has a reputation for screwing over a certain vendor.

Madcow Rocketry as far as I know has a good reputation with order fulfillment.
Madcow Rocketry uses CT alledgedly. Madcow's actual supply chain is private information.

IMO Madcow should not be punished because maybe CT is in his supply chain as long as Madcow conducts his business honestly and shields his customer's from CT's faults.

Again that is my opinion that's all.

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I completely agree with this.

And as a result of CT being the source of MC's tube and parts, MC has a metric butt ton of stuff out of stock most of the year. Now that we've seen the cycle repeat over several years, it's clear that they horde parts/kits for seasonal sales. Probably because that's the only way that they can do business due to their supply issues.

Sad state of affairs.

You know, if its such an issue to buy CT tubing you could always just buy one of the awesome paper tube kits from Madcow and just glass/CF those tubes instead.

Banzai88 said:

Now that we've seen the cycle repeat over several years, it's clear that they horde parts/kits for seasonal sales.

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If they're doing that, and I have no evidence they are, it's a cost/volume tradeoff it's their decision to make. I've never had any problem getting items from Madcow when I've wanted them seasonally or otherwise myself, but I don't buy that frequently.

I'm lost

They are trying to be obtuse AfterBurners. They don't want to come right out and use the names. If you don't buy this type of stuff just move on as there is nothing to see here.

AfterBurners said:

I'm lost

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Here is a "Road Map" . . . Following a two decades long path.

Rocketeers order parts from Vendors, who have to buy them from the only current manufacturer.

The Vendor takes his profit and then pays the only current manufacturer, in full, in advance.

The only current manufacturer then either takes the money, uses it to fill an old back-order, or does nothing, at all.

The Rocketeer who ordered the parts calls his Vendor and says, "Hey, where's my stuff ?" . . . Various Replies ensue.

Meanwhile, other orders are placed with the same or other Vendors and the "vicious cycle" continues.

Eventually, Rocketeers begin demanding refunds, eventually get their items ( up to a year or more later ), or never receive them at all. Vendors are under extreme pressure, since "good news travel fast and bad news travels faster" in the Rocketry community.

The Vendors are stuck in the position of having accepted payment in full, in advance, from Rocketeers. They have taken out and spent their profit margin. Yet, they are financially responsible to the Rocketeer for the entire purchase amount, while the only current manufacturer does nothing to fix the problem.

The solution is for all Rocketry Vendors to combine forces and move to a new manufacturer, en masse, leaving the old problem behind. to whatever fate awaits it !

You are now no longer "lost" . . .

Dave F.

Dave F.

Zeus-cat said:

They are trying to be obtuse AfterBurners. They don't want to come right out and use the names. If you don't buy this type of stuff just move on as there is nothing to see here.

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No, the truth is that, if we use the "real names", the Moderators will likely lock the thread, as has happened on numerous other threads on this forum. It always turns into "factions" arguing over the problem.

If you want to know the specifics, shoot me a PM.

Dave F.

mikec said:

If they're doing that, and I have no evidence they are, it's a cost/volume tradeoff it's their decision to make. I've never had any problem getting items from Madcow when I've wanted them seasonally or otherwise myself, but I don't buy that frequently.

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They have all but told me that this is what they're doing when I tried to get a few kits earlier this year that had been out of stock for most of the year. SUDDENLY there's a ton of stock for BF/BS/CM sales. I know it's their decision to make, but it's a real screw job for the rest of us. And one more reason I won't purchase anything, from anyone, that puts a single $$ in CT's pocket. knowledge is power.

And K at PH and anyone that purchases anything fiberglass from PH should know better by now as this problem has been going on for AT LEAST the last 5 years running, trending only worse and worse.