Report a Malfunctioning Engine

Estes E12-4, Date Code: D 19 06 19

Blew out both the nozzle and delay cap.

MESS report filed, as well as an email to Estes.

beantownJPL said:

Estes E12-4, Date Code: D 19 06 19

Blew out both the nozzle and delay cap.

MESS report filed, as well as an email to Estes.

View attachment 397845

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Thank you!!

Speaking of motor CATO's. Many years ago, Perhaps in the early 80s, I was flying a 3 cluster FSI F-7 in my rocket. I THINK they were F-7s. They also had the F-100s. They were fun to fly. One of them failed and split just above the nozzle and blew completely out of the rocket and spewed hot propellant on my bare legs since I was wearing short pants. I had 2nd and 3rd degree burns on the insides of my legs near my scrotum which was fortunately missed. I still have the scars to prove it...

When I called and told the old man what had happened, he blamed me. Hmm...I wasn't asking for anything. I just wanted him to know about the failure of the motor. I did everything the instructions called for as far as igniter insertion goes. It was just a bad motor.

Yesterday something odd happened.

I have a T fin rocket, and one of the T tops got singed. The rocket flew straight and rather high. I wonder if that was deflection from the pad plate? I doubt the motor was malfunctioning in any way. I've launched this many times. Still a ...

don carter said:

Speaking of motor CATO's. Many years ago, Perhaps in the early 80s, I was flying a 3 cluster FSI F-7 in my rocket. I THINK they were F-7s. They also had the F-100s. They were fun to fly. One of them failed and split just above the nozzle and blew completely out of the rocket and spewed hot propellant on my bare legs since I was wearing short pants. I had 2nd and 3rd degree burns on the insides of my legs near my scrotum which was fortunately missed. I still have the scars to prove it...

When I called and told the old man what had happened, he blamed me. Hmm...I wasn't asking for anything. I just wanted him to know about the failure of the motor. I did everything the instructions called for as far as igniter insertion goes. It was just a bad motor.

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Back in the early 80's a cluster or 3 F7 "Steam Machines" or F100's would have been over the Total Impulse limit ( 80 Nt-Sec at that time, until 1986, when it was increased to 160 Nt-Sec. & 53 oz. Max. Liftoff Wt.

However, being BP motors, you would have exceeded the 125gr Max. Propellant Wt. Limit. , still in effect today, unless it was flown as an HPR model.

Dave F.

ALPHAROCKETGUY said:

I have been out of the sport for 40 years, just found my old motor stash of FSI F-100 motors and some Enerjet. Do you think they will work after 40 years in storage?

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I would love to take some of those F100's off of your hands if you'd be willing to sell some, even some of the Enerjets too.I'm soon to acquire an old FSI OSO kit and the F's would be just perfect for it.I'm just like you,I haven't flown anything in thirty plus years.Be a cool way to start up again by firing up some of those power fountains.So if you want to move some of them let me know.

It was an F-7 that CATOE-d NOT an F-100!

This is response to CB who and Dave. The F-7 I flew DID indeed malfunction. It split from the clay nozzle up about halfway.

In regards to you Dave, So what? You weren't concerned about my burns as much as me flying something "over the limit?" You gotta love it!! LOL! The motor failed. I got burned. THAT WAS THE PROBLEM!!

Motor, weight Nazi's. Yep, still around Mark. If the shoe fits...

don carter said:

Speaking of motor CATO's. Many years ago, Perhaps in the early 80s, I was flying a 3 cluster FSI F-7 in my rocket. I THINK they were F-7s. They also had the F-100s. They were fun to fly. One of them failed and split just above the nozzle and blew completely out of the rocket and spewed hot propellant on my bare legs since I was wearing short pants. I had 2nd and 3rd degree burns on the insides of my legs near my scrotum which was fortunately missed. I still have the scars to prove it...

When I called and told the old man what had happened, he blamed me. Hmm...I wasn't asking for anything. I just wanted him to know about the failure of the motor. I did everything the instructions called for as far as igniter insertion goes. It was just a bad motor.

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How close were you to the motor when you launched it? If you were following the safe distance tables I’m trying to understand how you got burned. I’m glad it wasn’t worse.

You should understand that was OVER 30 years ago. Memories fade. If I were to guess it would be well over 100’. The motor split, came spinning out of the rocket missing my father by feet. It sure didn’t miss me!!

don carter said:

...and spewed hot propellant on my bare legs since I was wearing short pants. I had 2nd and 3rd degree burns on the insides of my legs near my scrotum which was fortunately missed. I still have the scars to prove it...

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Holy mackerel! How short were your short pants?

Getting a little personal?

don carter said:

Getting a little personal?

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Says the guy who posted about his scrotum.

Hey Cnorm. I guess you’re wanting to know about THAT too!

You GOTTA love THIS crowd! Lol!

Anyway, thanks for removing the nastiness. There’s no place for that kind of talk. I was simply attempting to explain where and how I got burned. That’s all.

I used to have a lot of fun with F-100s. GREAT BP motors. Not so much with the F-7s. Sort of wimpy. And the one that burned my inner thighs certainly wasn’t so good.
Let’s face it. All sorts of motors fail. From the ones you buy at the hobby shop to the ones we see on TV attempting to put satellites in orbit and everything we see in between! As the saying goes, “it is what it is.” Cracks in propellant, poor design, bad chemicals, I could go on and on but I think you get my point. Any number of things can (and do) cause motor failure.
So what’s my point? Exactly this. Motors fail. Be ready for it. I just happened to be in the way of a large black powder motor (F-7) that failed and burned me. Always be careful when mixing, casting, popping cores, trimming propellant, drilling cores, etc. Not only that, but be careful when launching your rocket. Things can and have gone wrong at the pad

I say these things because I don’t want you to get burned like I did.

I’ve STILL got a slew of old CROWN composite motors I bought many years ago as well as a bunch of F7s and F-100s. I collect old motors.

Good Information !!

Any solid “MOTOR” (not engine. Engine is the word used for liquids) can fail. Even those made by the “professional” motor manufacturers are subject to failure!! Anybody remember the Challenger?

don carter said:

Any solid “MOTOR” (not engine. Engine is the word used for liquids) can fail. Even those made by the “professional” motor manufacturers are subject to failure!! Anybody remember the Challenger?

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You don't say?

don carter said:

Any solid “MOTOR” (not engine. Engine is the word used for liquids) can fail. Even those made by the “professional” motor manufacturers are subject to failure!! Anybody remember the Challenger?

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The Challenger Disaster....what happens when politicians overrule the engineers....never mix politics and safety/reliability...

CoyoteNumber2 said:

You don't say?

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Yeah, I DO say. Especially to rocket nerds! Lol!

Filled out a mess report on 6 E12-4 - A111511

cwbullet said:

Filled out a mess report on 6 E12-4 - A111511

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Those are over a decade old, right?

lakeroadster said:

Those are over a decade old, right?

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Yes. I bought them two years ago at Hobby Lobby. I have had numerous packs, and nearly all have Catoed. The rest will fly on the ground.

rharshberger said:

The Challenger Disaster....what happens when politicians overrule the engineers....never mix politics and safety/reliability...

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That's hard to do at a Government run company like NASA. At the top of the chain of command... is a politician.

Many years ago I had an FSI motor (an F-7 I think) I had prepped and ready to fly. It was a hot summer day and I had short britches on. My dad was with me. When I pushed the button the motor blew out of the rocket airframe and was spinning around spewing out hot gasses. It literally landed between my unprotected legs burning me on my inside thighs very close to my private parts. I turned to my father and said, “daddy, that thing burned me up!” My father took me to the hospital and I had 3rd degree burns on my inside thighs. It was very painful.

When I called up Harold Reese, the owner and told him he said “well if you sue me you’re not going to get anything!” I told him I wasn’t going to sue him but that I just wanted him to know that motor failed. The cardboard case just above the nozzle had split! Harold acted angry with me! Hmm…!

I thought that to be interesting.

There was 4 Cesaroni failures at the TTRA on the 25th and 26th of last month most was a total loss of the Rocket one of them being mine doing my L1 attempt. 100% for sure I will never run a cesaroni again. Destroyed the casing and my whole rocket was a total loss including the electronics.

i Have attached a picture, you will see the engine exploding during flight

Cesaroni 2 grain Smoky Sams. The liner is bonded to the case. It burnt through one of the cases and the forward closure and delay are stuck inside both cases! One flew at Midwest Power back in October 2022. The 2nd motor flew at Thunderstruck 2023 on April 14th.