Cert flight with cluster or multistage rocket or unconventional recovery?

mikec said:

You're more likely to fail, so it's not a good idea for that reason, but why make it illegal? (Assuming the rocket is acceptable to the RSO, of course.)

I did my L2 with a simple motor eject flight, but lots of people do it with a dual deploy flight. Should we make dual deploy cert flights illegal just because there are more ways to fail?

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Not the point. DD is well within the capability of someone going for L2, and if you fly on fields with high upper level winds (like in NM), DD may be the smarter way to go to avoid losing the rocket, so there are good reasons to use DD on an L2 cert.

Bill Hanson said:

Why then, should it be permissible for someone of less experience who has one prior HPR launch (L1 cert) and then just walks up to the RSO table with a completed L2 exam and a 2-stager for their second HPR launch

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So where do you want to draw the line for being acceptable? The second flight on. J motor? What if they certify in the morning on a 3FNC can they then fly a 2 stager in the afternoon? And again what makes it any better if you have a flight failure on your second or subsequent flights on J motor flight vs your first?

solid_fuel said:

Does it really make a difference if whatever happens happens on your L2 cert flight vs your next flight as a L2?

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I suppose not. And there is nothing about maturity or good judgement in the NAR (or TRA) certification material, so that's not a factor either.
I was thinking of a scenario where someone who has only one prior HPR flight (L1 cert) walks up to the RSO table with a completed L2 exam and a 2-stager, and the RSO has never built or flown a 2-stager. What could go wrong?
But as you point out, the same thing could happen on a non-cert flight.
I guess it's a good thing that those situations are very rare ... oh well.

solid_fuel said:

So where do you want to draw the line for being acceptable? The second flight on. J motor? What if they certify in the morning on a 3FNC can they then fly a 2 stager in the afternoon? And again what makes it any better if you have a flight failure on your second or subsequent flights on J motor flight vs your first?

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Agreed. See my previous post.
Plus you responded while I was editing the post for just that reason. LOL

Bill Hanson said:

I was thinking of a scenario where someone who has only one prior HPR flight (L1 cert) walks up to the RSO table with a completed L2 exam and a 2-stager, and the RSO has never built or flown a 2-stager. What could go wrong?
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I am sure it can happen that an RSO has never built or flown a High Power two stager.
The question is, IF/WHEN that happens, SHOULD the RSO decline the flight UNTIL an RSO with two stage experience is available, even if it means that rocket doesn't fly that day? And SHOULD it be different if the guy or gal with the two stage rocket is bringing the rocket for his/her first two stage flight or has 50 or more previous two stage flights under the belt?

I don't know if NAR or Tripoli has specific rules on this, if not, I think each club should decide such in advance and make the rules known on their web sites.

It does get a bit touchy, do you have the same rules if the RSO hasn't flown glider or helicopter rockets, or rockets with unique motors or recovery setups?

Can a person RSO their own rocket under NAR or Tripoli rules?

solid_fuel said:

Can a person RSO their own rocket under NAR or Tripoli rules?

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The answer should be NO, you can pre-flight and double check your rocket but an RSO check is a 2nd party preflight safety check. Actually any preflight safety check is just that (even with a check at the RSO table), the RSO is a individual with respondsibilty to make safety decisions for an event.

As and individual who regularly serves as an RSO, I have no experience with 2stage HPR ( and only some experience with MPR electronic 2 staging) but with information learned from those who do, and personal failures and successes with electronic staging at MPR level I am able to make calls (or to make a call to someone with lots of experience).

I've RSO'd one 2 stage flight in all my times volunteering at MWP. Anyone wanna guess which one it was...
My gut feeling was no, but I let him talk me into Okaying it... And we all know how that turned out...
I didn't know as L2 RSO, I could override a L3 flier. I do now

solid_fuel said:

Can a person RSO their own rocket under NAR or Tripoli rules?

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High power rocket inspection is required to be done by the RSO or a person the RSO delegates. That’s NFPA 1127 Chapter 4. It’s best for that to be someone other than the flyer (as Rich says), but it’s also allowable for a person to launch all alone so there are times it is done by the flyer (and there are times it’s not done, which is technically a violation of the Safety Codes).

There is definitely 2 schools of thought for certification, looking at the opinions here.

1 - build a basic rocket, get the cert then have fun.
2 - build something you want to fly and have fun.

Both are completely valid and have their merits.

For me I wouldn't do level 2 if I could just do a basic rocket for it. I already have 3FNC rockets and have no intension on building a bigger one for the sake of it as I wouldn't fly it again. What I am planning will be single stage and not clustered for cert, but will be by no means a conventional rocket.

The big thing for me though is I am running my planning decisions through our clubs RSOs before and as I build, and they know my experience and competency. Im not going to turn up on they day and try and fly a complex rocket out of the blue. I can understand the problem of people who dont do this, and think we need to encourage people to engage this way and support RSOs to say no to a flight that they aren't comfortable with.

BABAR said:

I am sure it can happen that an RSO has never built or flown a High Power two stager.
The question is, IF/WHEN that happens, SHOULD the RSO decline the flight UNTIL an RSO with two stage experience is available, even if it means that rocket doesn't fly that day?

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By that logic, nobody would EVER be allowed to fly a model with onboard guidance, or R/C rocket boosted gliders,, unless the RSO has flown rockets with onboard guidance, or R/C R/G's themselves to the same power level (or more) than the model at hand. And that's not very common.

Or, to make this a far more frequent scenario, should an RSO not allow anything to fly unless that RSO has flown the SAME exact type of critical onboard electronics, themselves? I do not refer to guidance or R/C. I refer to every single dual deploy system, every timer, every single electronic device tat is used for any pyrotechnic event (ejection, air-starts, staging, etc), and not just ones sold today but old ones that fliers may be using. Dozens and dozens of electronic types. Also, DIY or semi-DIY like Arduino-based systems (nobody can fly an Arduino-based system unless the RSO knows Arduino programming and can read a long print-out of the programming at the field, to search for a bug?) .

Also to break this down ever further, if the RSO can't trust that all fliers know how to set up and use those devices, then how does the RSO know the modeler assembled reloads correctly? Packed the chutes properly? Has a strong enough recovery system, end-to-end, from anchor to how the shroud lines are attached to the canopy?

How does the RSO know if a clustered model is set up right, and that every ignitor in the model is suitable to ignite different types of motors at the same time? Never mind wiring it up.

I mean, take this to the "logical conclusion in the name of safety", and you'd have to have many RSO's to hand-hold and baby sit every single model (and motor) as it is being prepped from step one.

There has to be a level of reasonability about this.

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georgegassaway said:

There has to be a level of reasonability about this.

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Absolutely agree. But the RSO is by definition responsible for the safety of the flyer, the fellow flyers. The spectators, the parking lot vehicles, the waiver, and the surrounding area whether that be playa, desert, nearby crops, or nearby neighborhoods. You are right, he or she doesn't HAVE to know everything, but needs to know enough to confidently say, "yes, you are cleared to put your bird on the pad and I am confident it will be a safe flight."

If, based on the RSO's experience OR LACK THEREOF, he or she should NOT just clear a rocket for the pad simply because the technology of the rocket is beyond his or her experience. Ignorance is never an excuse. As I believe a previous poster has said, an L2 RSO can (and should) nix an L3 flight if something doesn't feel right. Also as a previous poster has said, even if the RSO doesn't have personal FLYING experience with technology of that level, if based on the experience they DO have (say flying mid power multistage but not high power. Or observation of such flights from prior launches) and thorough review of the rocket the RSO is comfortable with the safety profile, then good to go.

Point is, no matter how experienced, a rocketeer can't just take a complex rocket of any type to the table and say to a less experienced RSO, "just clear it, I have more experience than you and its gonna be fine." It is RSOs job to understand enough to be confident of the safety profile of that rocket, and the RSOs job to say NO if he or she had doubts, again whether those doubts come from experience or lack thereof.

In larger fields in some cases there is the option of using the "away" pads, calling a heads up flight, or as we have done at Mid South Rocketry, flying the bird either early or late when most of the spectators are gone.