Has anyone else noticed a change to the way CTI is producing 54mm motors?

Theory said:

its been a few days now; curious what the actual issue is

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Have not forgotten. CTI has promised to get back with me this week, just hope some of you won't be disappointed.

IMO the change (if intentional) is probably a good one and not a big deal unless you're standing in the middle of a field after driving 800 mi and spending $100s only to be unable to get the motor lit on your big project.

Hmmm. Missing BP pellet? Will be interesting to find out, thanks for the update.


Tony

manixFan said:

Hmmm. Missing BP pellet? Will be interesting to find out, thanks for the update.


Tony

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Don't steal my thunder Tony It's not that loud in the first place. Unless you happened to hear me cursing from pad 77 and the away RSO. No call today from CTI.

Have you seen this before in CTI 54s?

jahall4 said:

Don't steal my thunder Tony It's not that loud in the first place. Unless you happened to hear me cursing from pad 77 and the away RSO. No call today from CTI.

Have you seen this before in CTI 54s?

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I’ve seen it. Not every Pro54 motor had the BP pellet. Those that didn’t had an igniter, not an electric match.

Steve Shannon said:

I’ve seen it. Not every Pro54 motor had the BP pellet. Those that didn’t had an igniter, not an electric match.

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How long ago?

I have flown 10 or so 54s 2 of them being this same J430 and dozens of smaller Pro Series, never seen a reload w/o a pellet from CTI. There is nothing in the instructions or online that I can find saying that they made a change. Nothing with the reload either. In fact no instructions at all, like they purposefully did not included them because the instructions would have been wrong. My vendor did not know anything about the change and its taken CTI month to confirm and I'm still waiting.

No BP pellet? My 54mm 4G K630 didn't have a pellet. That was almost two years ago for my level 2 cert. Not all 54mm motors have pellets and all 75mm and up don't have pellets either. It's as simple as that.

jahall4 said:

How long ago?

I have flown 10 or so 54s 2 of them being this same J430 and dozens of smaller Pro Series, never seen a reload w/o a pellet from CTI. There is nothing in the instructions or online that I can find saying that they made a change. Nothing with the reload either. In fact no instructions at all, like they purposefully did not included them because the instructions would have been wrong. My vendor did not know anything about the change and its taken CTI month to confirm and I'm still waiting.

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Probably 3 years ago. I only noticed it because it was an igniter instead of an e-match.

Fired 2 54 CTI's recently, L935 and L805, one of them didn't have a pellet, can't remember which. And it came with an e-match, not an ignitor.

jahall4 said:

How long ago?

I have flown 10 or so 54s 2 of them being this same J430 and dozens of smaller Pro Series, never seen a reload w/o a pellet from CTI. There is nothing in the instructions or online that I can find saying that they made a change. Nothing with the reload either. In fact no instructions at all, like they purposefully did not included them because the instructions would have been wrong. My vendor did not know anything about the change and its taken CTI month to confirm and I'm still waiting.

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K2045 (RIP) never had a pellet, instead coming with a rather beefy dipped igniter. I believe some of the smaller Vmax loads also didn't have a pellet, but I'm not certain.

Did the J430s without pellets come with dipped igniters or ematches? Based on the fact you had an issue, I'm guessing ematches, but I just want to be certain.

Maxwelljets said:

Did the J430s without pellets come with dipped igniters or ematches? Based on the fact you had an issue, I'm guessing ematches, but I just want to be certain.

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This is where its gets “ugly”, the root of the problem for me and anyone else unprepared for motors w/o pellets… My latest J430 (but not the priors) in fact had a rather crudely “dipped” igniter; however, nothing that looks like what is used for CTI’s larger motors…



What was provided appeared to be a MJG ematch doubled over and dipped in some type of pyrogen concoction that resembled brittle clay, not commercial or professional looking at all, something I might do myself. Worse was that the dipped section of the ematch (as packaged) was hidden under the coil so neither I nor the vendor would have noticed the change.

But still that’s not really a problem right, wrong… because CTI took no precautions to protect the more fragile “igniter” and because it was hidden from view, neither I nor the vendor could see that the pyrogen cocoon was cracked in multiple place, so when it was pulled from its little bag, it came completely apart and the pieces fell to my feet.

Normally this is not problem, I keep MJG ematches (which are also igniters for every CTI motor I have ever purchased) in my supplies. So I reach my vendor by phone and ask if he is aware of CTI making a change, is there any reason that I can’t use a MJG ematch as my igniter as I have done before, he says no to both questions. So I head to the away RSO and the pad with my MJG ematch taped to the rocket. You can guess what did not happen.

The key issue here is that CTI failed to communicate the change to a flyer that had no reason to keep any extra igniters in their supplies, leaving me no way to light the motor. What’s worse is that’s it’s been a month and CTI has been unable to confirm they started using “igniters” in their 2 grain 54s.

Please don’t misunderstand I am a strong proponent for using CTI reloads particularly 24, 29, and 54s, it’s all I fly in reloads. I have never had a CTI CATO. Also CTI has been very generous on a school project (https://www.facebook.com/notes/the-marvin-wright-rocket/propulsion/2346705558757768/), sponsoring all the hardware even making sure my vendor got the preferred motor (a 54mm) for the project when their production was halted due to the accident. My main contact is wonderful; she has always been attentive even on this issue. Maybe that’s why I’m so disappointed from a technical side… for CTI to make a change, not document, not provided adequate packaging, not provide any notice on the packaging, and then fail to follow up after a month when it was brought to their attention.

I will continue to fly CTI if not I wouldn’t have made the effort here. I simply want them to communicate and produce a dependable product like before. IMO the change is an improvement they just need to ship it with a professional igniter in packaging that protects ALL the components of the reload.

Everyone, thanks for patience on this, I wanted to give CTI every opportunity to respond with some official information.

Everyone, thanks for patience on this, I wanted to give CTI every opportunity to respond with some official information.

jahall4 said:

What was provided appeared to be a MJG ematch doubled over and dipped in some type of pyrogen concoction that resembled brittle clay, not commercial or professional looking at all, something I might do myself. Worse was that the dipped section of the ematch (as packaged) was hidden under the coil so neither I nor the vendor would have noticed the change.

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Yep, that's how the igniters were with the K2045s, as well as on all reloads 75 and larger. Just an ematch, folded over on itself a couple times, dipped in something gray and fairly brittle. I can personally confirm that the pyrogen does still function after it cracks if you superglue the pieces back together. I completely agree that they do an unacceptably poor job of protecting the pyrogen.

That being said, if a reload comes with a full on igniter rather than an ematch, it's a fair bet that an ematch is insufficient. If you want to have an alternative for the future to keep it from happening again, I'd recommend purchasing a small Aerotech Blue Thunder hobbyline reload and cutting it into strips. Taping a blue thunder strip to an ematch produces a fairly reliable igniter.

Edit: The fact that they included a dipped igniter instead of an ematch means this is almost certainly a purposeful change rather than a mistake. It's possible that they're gonna go back once the pellet situation is sorted, but I think the odds of it being an error are slim to none.

I had a CTI 54mm reload a couple of years back that had the pyrogen cracked off the igniter. The igniters are taped onto the outside of the cardboard tube that has the reload, making them susceptible to mechanical damage during transport. They are done that way so as to reduce the chance of the igniter setting off the motor during transport . Luckily I managed to scrounge another igniter on launch day, or I would have been dead-in-the-water with that flight.

Their large dipped igniters are soggy wet garbage in a sunny day. I lit my M2020 with a Wildman Biggun and a D18 blue thunder grain and it went fine. I used the suppled igniter for the M2020 on an L1000 and it failed to ignite. It just made a sooty mess.

Oh yeah, I've had a few of those crumbly igniters.

Most have worked just fine.

When they haven't, I've used a quick burst igniter and off they go.

Maxwelljets said:

That being said, if a reload comes with a full on igniter rather than an ematch, it's a fair bet that an ematch is insufficient.

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...and hence the call to my vendor who said he was not aware of a change and that the ematch should work. Not his fault, keep in mind that a 2 gran 54 is not a large motor. I can get real igniters and would have purchased some spares if I had known.

seth_cooper said:

This is not a big deal in my opinion.

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Agreed except when you have driven 800 miles and spent $100s only to have no way to light your biggest project

Again, I think using a real igniter is an improvement as long as it something like what is pictured in the CTI 75mm instructions (above). Still if they are going to make a production change it is irresponsible NOT to communicate the change to their customer so their customer can be prepared to mitigate failed packaging in this case.

jahall4 said:

Agreed except when you have driven 800 miles and spent $100s only to have no way to light your biggest project

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There were plenty of vendors there to provide igniters, including MitchMatch. He’d of set you right up.
Also I think every 75mm CTI motor I’ve bought came with the crappie igniter you mentioned, always seemed cracked/crumbled too so this really isn’t new, at least in my experience.

timbucktoo said:

There were plenty of vendors there to provide igniters, including MitchMatch. He’d of set you right up.
Also I think every 75mm CTI motor I’ve bought came with the crappie igniter you mentioned, always seemed cracked/crumbled too so this really isn’t new, at least in my experience.

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Actually no one was there or was packing up by the time we figured out what was going on. My vendor was on the way out and CTI had long since gone. We are talking about 54s which as documented are supposed to have a pellets. Again mine have always had them, including the 2 prior J430, until now. No one one has come forward on this thread saying their 1 or 2 grain 54 was missing the pellet. I did find this today in a Jim Hendricksen post form 2014 that seems to corroborate CTI has made a recent change in the 54 shorts: "...CTI uses E-matches to ignite their 24-29-38-54mm [54 shorter] motors. long 54's all 75&98mm use dipped igniters." So only the "longs" which in the past has been at least 3 grain and above if not longer.

I can never keep track of which motors use pellets and which don't, so I have a trick.

I pull the forward bulkhead out (like I'm gonna drill the delay) and look to see if it has a pellet. Then I choose an appropriate motor starter for the situation. Then I fly it

(Don't forget to put the forward bulkhead back in )

p.s. Agreed on the dipped things that CTI ships being... not great bob. I don't know if I've ever seen one work in a big motor on the first try, and they're always smashed to bits by the time they get to me.

+1 Dr. DR uuuummmm....kinda has a ring to it.lol



Always...ALWAYS have an extra motor starter on hand in case the first one fails. This is standard procedure with all serious fliers I know.
One should also know and understand the motor they fly and ignition needs. Yeah I know they should supply blah blah blah...but ultimately it s up to each individual.

After all, it IS rocket science !

You can always remove pellet if supplied match is lost or you burn it up and can't find another. Then use a standard igniter.
This list came from CTI showing what motors needed standard or dipped in pyro igniters...of course V-max now gone.
All motors 75mm and larger also.
If some one has a new list please post.

blackjack2564 said:

This list came from CTI showing what motors needed standard or dipped in pyro igniters...of course V-max now gone.

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Handy, thanks!

Like most Prefects (now past), I have a small ammo box full of various “starters” that I’ve accumulated over the years. I can never keep the small ones on hand but I have several “Big ‘Uns” in the box for people who need one. I’d encourage keeping a few extra, but I understand Allen’s frustration.

Cheap way to get some spare igniters: Whenever flying an AT Blue Thunder, use an e-match and keep the FirstFire. Worked well so far from about H242 sized to the K1100. I think I'll try different propellants in the future with ematches on launches where I'm not too concerned about misfires.

Reinhard

Jim, thanks for the list so far you're posts (albient one from 2014) have provided more insight than CTI. Never new a list existed, again another communication shortcoming of CTI.

blackjack2564 said:

Always...ALWAYS have an extra motor starter on hand in case the first one fails. This is standard procedure with all serious fliers I know.

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...and I always do. I had flown the J430 before.

blackjack2564 said:

One should also know and understand the motor they fly and ignition needs.

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... and again I do. I had flown the J430 before.

blackjack2564 said:

This list came from CTI showing what motors needed standard or dipped in pyro igniters...of course V-max now gone. ... If someone has a new list please post.

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... the list is NOT complete, it is now missing the non-vmax 2G motors and maybe 1Gs. There is no way to know, the whole point of this thread. And I would love to provide a new list, but after a full month I can't get CTI to even confirm they made the change to the J430.

The lesson here is that one can't depend on CTI to advise their customers of a change, even after the fact, and that flyers should stock supplies that don't know they will need.

With regards to the brittle gray CTI igniters, I always open them up and paint them with fingernail polish. Keeps them together and makes them much stronger. Sometimes I’ll re-dip them once in J DeMar’s BKNO3 thinned slurry, then paint with nail polish after dry for a little extra punch.

“60% of the time, it works every time.”

Steve Shannon said:

Like most Prefects (now past), I have a small ammo box full of various “starters” that I’ve accumulated over the years. I can never keep the small ones on hand but I have several “Big ‘Uns” in the box for people who need one. I’d encourage keeping a few extra, but I understand Allen’s frustration.

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Thanks Steve, and that is what people are missing in these posts. I have never needed anything other than ematches to light CTI motors because I have never lit a motor requiring anything else and per the docs and every post I can find here should still not need anything else. This may seem trivial to someone who launches larger motors, but that's a rather myopic response especially when CTI fails to advised you and your motor vendor of a change and you are advise to use an igniter that won't work.

BryRocket said:

With regards to the brittle gray CTI igniters, I always open them up and paint them with fingernail polish. Keeps them together and makes them much stronger. Sometimes I’ll re-dip them once in J DeMar’s BKNO3 thinned slurry, then paint with nail polish after dry for a little extra punch.

“60% of the time, it works every time.”

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That's a good idea, but I don't have problem purchasing real igniters like CTI use to provide.

jahall4 said:

This may seem trivial to someone who launches larger motors, but that's a rather myopic response especially when CTI fails to advised you and your motor vendor of a change and you are advise to use an igniter that won't work.

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Maybe it's just me being a grouchy old TAP, but this attitude ain't the recipe for success. It's ultimately the flyer's responsibility to understand and verify the form, fit, and function of your vehicle's components, CTI's advice or no.

NFPA 1125 8.2.6 requires the reporting of "changes exceeding manufacturing tolerances" to the certifying org. "Manufacturing tolerances" are self-defined in each manufacturer's quality plan (7.8.2), so really it comes down to their own engineering judgment. And because sometimes manufacturers don't understand every nuance of their product, what they truthfully believe is a trivial change might end up being much more than that (see: spongebob J350s, K1440 cure cycles, red delay insulators, et al.).

And that's fine! It's a hobby, the stakes are pretty low thanks to our launch practices, and achieving something closer to perfection would take far more time and money than we'd be willing to pay. You've said the change "is not a big deal," which is exactly right. Nobody got hurt, and you've learned something (all the different ways to light hobby motors and how they work!), so now you're one step closer to ultimate rocket nirvana Full interest and ownership are a good thing (tm).

Btw, even in the professional rocket world, changes happen that aren't always flowed to the customer. And that's with multiple levels of oversight (from internal to DCMA) watching the whole operation. It ain't right, but it happens--and ultimately we catch it before flight because we know these things inside and out. I take particular pride in that... maybe it contributes to my myopia though, I'm constantly working on self-awareness, add me on Co-Star, etc.

(see also: "my rocket kit didn't come with labeled parts so now I can't kitbash it you monsters," yikes)