EVENT BALLS 28

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Nytrunner said:
Man that was an uncomfortable video to watch of Kip's flight. Tilt/altitude inhibits on the next workbench?



How much over?
Click to expand...

I’m not sure what exactly happened, I heard he had a plain timer on board... but that’s all I can say. All 16 Class 3 projects had went wrong in some way, if it was a Cato, shredding, fins coming loose, second stage not lighting, or not recovered. Jim Jarvis was the only successful Class 3 flight but only reached 147,000ft, less than half of what his project was simmed for.
 
Buddy Michaelson said:
I’m not sure what exactly happened, I heard he had a plain timer on board... but that’s all I can say. All 16 Class 3 projects had went wrong in some way, if it was a Cato, shredding, fins coming loose, second stage not lighting, or not recovered. Jim Jarvis was the only successful Class 3 flight but only reached 147,000ft, less than half of what his project was simmed for.
Click to expand...

You probably shouldn’t repeat something like that if you don’t know for a fact.
Deb, the Launch Director, said that all staged flights at BALLS were required to be tilt inhibited. It’s definitely being looked at to figure out what went wrong. Unfortunately Kip’s sustainer hasn’t been found.
 
My first Black rock adventure was pretty good .
I set my personal best altitude with an Aerotech M685 in a custom carbon mach 3 to 33K and change.
The next day i killed my Punisher but i think i can fix it, that one has sentimental value to me.
Got to meet a bunch of nice people i talk to on the phone and with email .
Overall a pretty good trip
 
Buddy Michaelson said:
I’m not sure what exactly happened, I heard he had a plain timer on board... but that’s all I can say. All 16 Class 3 projects had went wrong in some way, if it was a Cato, shredding, fins coming loose, second stage not lighting, or not recovered. Jim Jarvis was the only successful Class 3 flight but only reached 147,000ft, less than half of what his project was simmed for.
Click to expand...
While I did not RSO the project, I know who did. There was NO timer on board Buddy.
 
Buddy Michaelson said:
I’m not sure what exactly happened, I heard he had a plain timer on board... but that’s all I can say. All 16 Class 3 projects had went wrong in some way,
Click to expand...

I thought Jim Deveau's staged flight was successful, but I could be mistaken.
 
There was a lot of misunderstanding about Kip's rocket going around. I think the timer issue stems from the fact that he may have intentionally delayed staging, as is often done, for altitude or speed reasons. So there may have been a time delay built into the sustainer ignition, but as part of the overall flight plan. Staging was not just a simple timer.

This was one of the least successful BALLS I've witnessed. There were a lot of large projects that did not go as planned. But I think that is more a matter of how hard folks are now pushing the envelope of amateur rocketry rather than anything else. Many of the projects were far bigger than anything from even 10 years ago.

I had 3 good flights, including a new personal best of 24,385' with a MD 54mm CF shortened Mongoose clone. I traveled to BALLS with Ken Overton, who had one of the few successful class 3 projects. So for us at least it went well.The Featherweight tracker system worked flawlessly and allowed me to quickly recover all my rockets. We were setup next to Buddy Michaelson who was extremely helpful with a couple of chutes and taught me a lot about how to rig my systems better. Vern from Multitronix loaned us a Kate to fly in Ken's big P motor project which was instrumental to us recovering it - without Kate it would have been a much harder recovery.


Tony

it's great when you can just drive right up to your rocket: (flight line in far distance, 75mm MD flown on an M motor)75mm-rocket-recovery.JPG
 
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Watching the big shots go off was a spectacle at Balls 28, my first time out on the playa. As LCO on Fri morning, I really enjoyed punching the button for many of the flights. Meeting many of you TRFers was a particular treat. :) My project, a modular design, went well. However there was a bit of undesired pitch just after it left the rail. I know there was some wind a bit off the playa, but the pitch experienced seemed a bit much to attribute solely to wind. Caliber off the pad is about 1.7, 13lbs with the L850, Rocksim says it should have been about 61mph off the rail. Sim also said max V would be 914, telemega recorded 901mph. I'm assuming then that the sim was very close to actual rail departure velocity as well. So, I'd appreciate any ideas as to why I got so much pitch. TIA.

Here's the video:
 
kevindcornwell said:
Watching the big shots go off was a spectacle at Balls 28, my first time out on the playa. As LCO on Fri morning, I really enjoyed punching the button for many of the flights. Meeting many of you TRFers was a particular treat. :) My project, a modular design, went well. However there was a bit of undesired pitch just after it left the rail. I know there was some wind a bit off the playa, but the pitch experienced seemed a bit much to attribute solely to wind. Caliber off the pad is about 1.7, 13lbs with the L850, Rocksim says it should have been about 61mph off the rail. Sim also said max V would be 914, telemega recorded 901mph. I'm assuming then that the sim was very close to actual rail departure velocity as well. So, I'd appreciate any ideas as to why I got so much pitch. TIA.
Click to expand...

I think its just rocket being a rocket. Our rockets are passively guided so these sorts of things just happen - I'm guessing. How many rail buttons are on this bird? If there was three is there a possibility that once the forward most botton cleared the other two might be ever so slightly misaligned thus producing the slight pitch? I don't really know myself so I'm sorta guessing here. I'd be really interested in hearing what others who know a lot more have to say.
 
kevindcornwell said:
Watching the big shots go off was a spectacle at Balls 28, my first time out on the playa. As LCO on Fri morning, I really enjoyed punching the button for many of the flights. Meeting many of you TRFers was a particular treat. :) My project, a modular design, went well. However there was a bit of undesired pitch just after it left the rail. I know there was some wind a bit off the playa, but the pitch experienced seemed a bit much to attribute solely to wind. Caliber off the pad is about 1.7, 13lbs with the L850, Rocksim says it should have been about 61mph off the rail. Sim also said max V would be 914, telemega recorded 901mph. I'm assuming then that the sim was very close to actual rail departure velocity as well. So, I'd appreciate any ideas as to why I got so much pitch. TIA.

Here's the video:
Click to expand...


Beautiful flight. That just looks like it could have weathercocked when it reached an altitude with higher speed winds. The wind on the playa is one thing, but the wind 100 feet up can be completely different. Take a look at your Telamega data to see what the actual velocity was leaving the rail.
There are apps that let you see what the winds are at different altitudes and it’s amazing how much they differ, as well as how much the direction may differ. It could also be exacerbated by a rail button dragging or rail whip. Sometimes a motor will have a period of off axis thrust for some reason. As DAllen said, it’s just a rocket being a rocket.
 
kevindcornwell said:
...<snipped>... So, I'd appreciate any ideas as to why I got so much pitch. TIA.
Click to expand...
Looking at the video frame by frame it took 6 frames (.2 seconds) to clear the rail. Assuming an 8ft rail, that is a speed of about 40fps, or about 28 mph. Winds aloft were very strong, we were seeing horizontal drift of 40-70 fps under drogue and mains. Looks like classic weathercocking due to a low velocity off rail. Check your altimeter data for actual liftoff speed.


Tony
 
Buddy Michaelson said:
I’m not sure what exactly happened, I heard he had a plain timer on board... but that’s all I can say. All 16 Class 3 projects had went wrong in some way, if it was a Cato, shredding, fins coming loose, second stage not lighting, or not recovered. Jim Jarvis was the only successful Class 3 flight but only reached 147,000ft, less than half of what his project was simmed for.
Click to expand...

2x 147k feet + change is approaching space, is there any more info on the rocket Jim Jarvis was flying?
 
Buddy Michaelson said:
Wow amazing job as always Jim and Stu! Great to see a fantastic flight and recovery. Btw what cameras were used? The fin shot is very interesting.
Click to expand...
Nothing exotic. The sustainer video is from something called a "Muvi Veho Pro".

https://www.amazon.com/Veho-VCC-005..._1_3?keywords=veho+muvi&qid=1569937296&sr=8-3

The battery will last for 2-3 hours depending on how you use it, and the form factor has some features that allow it to be easily mounted.

The fin-cam is just an 808 #16. It has a flat bottom, so I just use a little CA to glue it to the fin.

Jim
 
Steve Shannon said:
Beautiful flight. That just looks like it could have weathercocked when it reached an altitude with higher speed winds. The wind on the playa is one thing, but the wind 100 feet up can be completely different. Take a look at your Telamega data to see what the actual velocity was leaving the rail.
There are apps that let you see what the winds are at different altitudes and it’s amazing how much they differ, as well as how much the direction may differ. It could also be exacerbated by a rail button dragging or rail whip. Sometimes a motor will have a period of off axis thrust for some reason. As DAllen said, it’s just a rocket being a rocket.
Click to expand...

I'm actually surprised to hear you say this Steve. Rockets are predictable. Only questioning and understanding will increase our knowledge of why things like this happen.
I would suggest looking at the pad. Was there a blast deflector, and how is the pad configured? I question sim exit velocity vs actual for many flights I've seen including my own. There needs to be more data on this.
Maybe it would be better if pad rails were longer, there was passive retention at launch, or blast deflectors were not attached to the structure of the pad?
The wind velocity at increasing altitude is interesting at Black Rock. Because it's smooth, there should only be gradual increases in wind velocity immediately above the deck, well, until you are over a thousand feet and the mountains are less of an obstacle. I know this all too well from a two stage flight last year at XPRS.
Second thing I heard in this thread is "what happens at BALLS stays at BALLS." This is funny of course, but probably really true and a little disappointing. I believe that a lot of knowledge is being concentrated with a few people and teams because of a lack of sharing. I would be interested in hearing why? Maybe there wouldn't be so many failures if information flowed a bit more freely. This is also why I believe that Class 3 project participants should be encouraged to write post-flight reports.

Do suppliers of altimeters using accelerometers with tilt protection test their products to assure they will work correctly? I can test my barometric altimeters in a vacuum chamber, but how to test an accelerometer for it's safety features? Again, is this something we are going to accept and repeat?
 
Richard Dierking said:
I'm actually surprised to hear you say this Steve. Rockets are predictable. Only questioning and understanding will increase our knowledge of why things like this happen.
I would suggest looking at the pad. Was there a blast deflector, and how is the pad configured? I question sim exit velocity vs actual for many flights I've seen including my own. There needs to be more data on this.
Maybe it would be better if pad rails were longer, there was passive retention at launch, or blast deflectors were not attached to the structure of the pad?
The wind velocity at increasing altitude is interesting at Black Rock. Because it's smooth, there should only be gradual increases in wind velocity immediately above the deck, well, until you are over a thousand feet and the mountains are less of an obstacle. I know this all too well from a two stage flight last year at XPRS.
Second thing I heard in this thread is "what happens at BALLS stays at BALLS." This is funny of course, but probably really true and a little disappointing. I believe that a lot of knowledge is being concentrated with a few people and teams because of a lack of sharing. I would be interested in hearing why? Maybe there wouldn't be so many failures if information flowed a bit more freely. This is also why I believe that Class 3 project participants should be encouraged to write post-flight reports.

Do suppliers of altimeters using accelerometers with tilt protection test their products to assure they will work correctly? I can test my barometric altimeters in a vacuum chamber, but how to test an accelerometer for it's safety features? Again, is this something we are going to accept and repeat?
Click to expand...

I’m not sure what part of my reply surprised you (and seemingly disappointed you). My two paragraphs discussed various factors that might have caused the flight to divert as it did. Those are things that should be understood while flying.
If you’re surprised by me repeating the phrase “It’s just a rocket being a rocket”, then you are reading too much into that. Rockets have no free will, motivation, or personalities. They obey physical laws of motion regardless of any attempts at humor.
 
Yup, as soon as I posted I realized that it was too harsh. Particularly for a post. Posts are not chatting in person, and if we were it would be different I think.
It's the rockets being rockets thing. So, sorry. Although hopefully, you don't disagree with all of the stuff I said. You are the guy btw that I quote when I'm getting kicked for some of the things I believe.
Frankly, I've been in a pissy mood since the space shot sub-topic thing and I need to get over it.
 
Richard Dierking said:
Yup, as soon as I posted I realized that it was too harsh. Particularly for a post. Posts are not chatting in person, and if we were it would be different I think.
It's the rockets being rockets thing. So, sorry. Although hopefully, you don't disagree with all of the stuff I said. You are the guy btw that I quote when I'm getting kicked for some of the things I believe.
Frankly, I've been in a pissy mood since the space shot sub-topic thing and I need to get over it.
Click to expand...

I agree with all you said!
 

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