Passing the Kármán Line

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JCRL

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I have a very ambitious question to ask: Has an amateur rocket builder ever passed the Karman Line? I know that a few university programs have done so, but I'm curious how realistic it is for someone without those resources. I'd love to hear the stories of anyone here who's rockets have made it to outer space.
 
As far as I know only the USC team has passed the Karman line, in April of this year.
They state 90% confidence of that mark after analysis of the data.
https://www.uscrpl.com/traveler-iv
In 2004 the CSXT team (of 30 civilians) officially passed the Karman Line with their GoFast rocket.
Don't think any individuals have done it yet.
 
I believe they accidentally launched that rocket with people around the pad and without arming electronics. They then went on to call it a complete success in myopic engineering student fashion.

I'm looking for sources to back up my comment.
 
I believe they accidentally launched that rocket with people around the pad and without arming electronics. They then went on to call it a complete success in myopic engineering student fashion.

I'm looking for sources to back up my comment.

There was a miscommunication, the students did not hit the launch button. The launch controller asked if they were ready, and they said no over the radio, but then there was a count down and their rocket was launched. The radio link was poor, and the communication system was not explicit. For their second year, they established a clear no / no-go protocol.

Also, they didn't claim success their first year, because they had no telemetry data. The second year was a success.
 
An important part of the GoFast story is the time and money they spent. I saw the approximate figures once; though I don't have them now either in memory or to hand, I know they were big. Part of the reason that no individual or small team has done it is that, even if one person has all the know-how, one would have to be independently wealthy in order to spend that kind of time and money on a hobby project. Many hands and wallets make light and affordable work.
 
I would absolutely love to hear how much GoFast cost overall. From my scant research, it appears that it took them 10 years and 5 or 6 unsuccessful attempts to pass the Karman Line. And that was with 30 people and corporate sponsorship. It would be a really cool thing to talk a NAR section into attempting; I know I'd be willing to volunteer in anyway that I could be useful to such a team.
 
I haven't been able to find an estimated cost on the rocket, but I did see that a CSXT team member said that the propellant was $30k per flight
 
S powered rocket, I saw the payload section and a small display with a few pictures and information from the CSXT Gofast rocket, very cool and inspiring for sure. As for me I find my self pondering what could be done with 1 large rocket motor and a few individuals with more time then money, or a boosted dart project to high altitude.

~John
 
S powered rocket, I saw the payload section and a small display with a few pictures and information from the CSXT Gofast rocket, very cool and inspiring for sure. As for me I find my self pondering what could be done with 1 large rocket motor and a few individuals with more time then money, or a boosted dart project to high altitude.

~John

With a dedicated team, anything is possible these days. Look at Copenhagen Suborbitals, that's a group of volunteers who are going to put a man in orbit one day. A backyard space program is getting more and more achievable.
 
I believe they accidentally launched that rocket with people around the pad and without arming electronics. They then went on to call it a complete success in myopic engineering student fashion.

I'm looking for sources to back up my comment.

How's the search for sources coming along?
 
To be accurate it was intentionally launched before recovery was armed. I don’t know if there were people within the safe distance radius. I never received a clear answer when I asked. I did receive assurances that they had since corrected their procedures. Their subsequent launch this spring was not a Tripoli Launch. It appeared that they were successful and for that I congratulate them.
 
Thanks.

What post in that thread is your source for "They then went on to call it a complete success in myopic engineering student fashion."?
He pulled that bit from, well, you know.
USC RPL is a great example of iterative success, failures along the way, and perseverance. But of course they're university students so someone will always want to go out of the way to p*ss on their parade because, well, idk?
 
Good topic and question. If you have been flying amateur rockets for awhile, and also watching other people fly large/complex - fast - high rockets you really get a feel for how difficult something like this is. I often hear new flyers talk about launching a rocket to space when they start HP rocketry. I think it's natural if you are a true rocketeer to desire this. But, after say 10 years, these same people want to fly to 50K' and believe that would be a great accomplishment - which it is btw.
But, the goal is space. :) The development of new electronics affordable to the amateur is encouraging. This makes it possible to track a rocket going so fast and high. (Also, it's always nice to recover what you launched along with that on-board video.)
Probably best with a must-stage rocket, and the talent to do something like this exists; probably about a dozen people on this forum with existing knowledge and skill could do it as a team. The major problem is the team building that would be necessary, and having the team members have equal ownership in the project. You see, lots of people would like to launch a rocket to space, I know I would. But, people just don't get up in the morning and realize that their life mission is to make Richard's dream a reality. They want it to be their project and their accomplishment. But, unless you have lots of resources and can pay for most of the stuff, you are not going to do it yourself. I'll give an example of the problem with team building for something like this. So, a large conventional amateur rocket would probably need a launch pad. So, who wants to build this pad? Then, you could say, "I built the pad for the second amateur team that launched a rocket to space." Hum... And, that's the second problem, someone has already done it! People tend to loose interest if they are racing to be second. So, another good question would be what's next?
Personally, I wouldn't mind being second or third or whatever. You have to feel comfortable being an important part of something larger; motivated by the challenge and building something unique.
 
Good topic and question. If you have been flying amateur rockets for awhile, and also watching other people fly large/complex - fast - high rockets you really get a feel for how difficult something like this is. I often hear new flyers talk about launching a rocket to space when they start HP rocketry. I think it's natural if you are a true rocketeer to desire this. But, after say 10 years, these same people want to fly to 50K' and believe that would be a great accomplishment - which it is btw.
But, the goal is space. :) The development of new electronics affordable to the amateur is encouraging. This makes it possible to track a rocket going so fast and high. (Also, it's always nice to recover what you launched along with that on-board video.)
Probably best with a must-stage rocket, and the talent to do something like this exists; probably about a dozen people on this forum with existing knowledge and skill could do it as a team. The major problem is the team building that would be necessary, and having the team members have equal ownership in the project. You see, lots of people would like to launch a rocket to space, I know I would. But, people just don't get up in the morning and realize that their life mission is to make Richard's dream a reality. They want it to be their project and their accomplishment. But, unless you have lots of resources and can pay for most of the stuff, you are not going to do it yourself. I'll give an example of the problem with team building for something like this. So, a large conventional amateur rocket would probably need a launch pad. So, who wants to build this pad? Then, you could say, "I built the pad for the second amateur team that launched a rocket to space." Hum... And, that's the second problem, someone has already done it! People tend to loose interest if they are racing to be second. So, another good question would be what's next?
Personally, I wouldn't mind being second or third or whatever. You have to feel comfortable being an important part of something larger; motivated by the challenge and building something unique.
1st loser syndrome?
 
Good topic and question... You see, lots of people would like to launch a rocket to space, I know I would. But, people just don't get up in the morning and realize that their life mission is to make Richard's dream a reality... And, that's the second problem, someone has already done it! People tend to loose interest if they are racing to be second. So, another good question would be what's next?
Personally, I wouldn't mind being second or third or whatever. You have to feel comfortable being an important part of something larger; motivated by the challenge and building something unique.
Well said. When I win a few hundred million in the lottery I'll happily foot the bill and try to build the team. Until then, my time and money have more important places to go.

As to what's next, the obvious answer is, unfortunately, not a good one. The specific energy of an object in low Earth orbit is (I calculated this a long time ago) more than 30 time that of a stationary object at the same altitude. So amateur to orbit is a HUGE step beyond crossing the Karman.

Breaking the altitude record would be something. Payload mass to space would be something. With my lottery millions I think I'll try to launch not only a rocket but a mission, i.e. to do something in space. What sort of science mission could we launch? It doesn't have to be ground-breaking, but something, some actual mission.
 
When replying to a youtube question, I knew the conversation was going nowhere when they asked "I don't want to orbit, I just want to know how high I have to get so I just hang there and stay in space?"
 
Well said. When I win a few hundred million in the lottery I'll happily foot the bill and try to build the team. Until then, my time and money have more important places to go.

As to what's next, the obvious answer is, unfortunately, not a good one. The specific energy of an object in low Earth orbit is (I calculated this a long time ago) more than 30 time that of a stationary object at the same altitude. So amateur to orbit is a HUGE step beyond crossing the Karman.

Breaking the altitude record would be something. Payload mass to space would be something. With my lottery millions I think I'll try to launch not only a rocket but a mission, i.e. to do something in space. What sort of science mission could we launch? It doesn't have to be ground-breaking, but something, some actual mission.
You've just described the difference (up to now) between SpaceX and Blue Origin. So far Blue Origin has only gone to space and not even on an actual mission, just tests to see how their equipment performs. SpaceX has done something with their equipment, namely launched satellites and restocked the space station.

I have no doubt that someday BO will be doing similar things, and both companies will eventually get astronauts into orbit for missions.

But you're so right in that there's a HUGE difference between "up and down" and "orbit".
 
I feel like it'll be done in the next 3-5 years. There's at least one build thread on this forum that hit 140k' and Curt von Delius's PHX4 hit 200k' last year. I'm waiting for some news to drip out from BALLS this year from someone who I have a hunch is looking seriously at the Karman Line ( ~330k feet ).
 
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LOL.
Yeah, if you ever want to generate some chuckles and moans around the campfire, just bring up amateur rocket to orbit. Well, we are going to need some realllly good epoxy.
I wish there was a different perspective to accomplishment; maybe more of a scientific approach, and this would be the motivator. This is why I'm watching university 'rocket to space' programs closely. Will it be, first to launch university multistage rocket to space? Or, perhaps first university reusable rocket to space? I would rather see, 'what other teams did is really cool, this is what we plan to do, this is what we did. First, second, or whatever, we did this and it's an advancement'.
I don't want to initiate something that will go OT, but think about Apollo and the space program. The major problem is that the then Soviet Union stopped, not us. Same kind of thing with amateur rocket to space. How long ago was it that this happened? Wasn't anyone else working on this at the time? What happened?
I brought this up before on the forum, but how about first amateur rocket over the Atlantic ocean? Keep in mind that I consider this because of the interesting things that would have to be accomplished, not really caring about the being 1st thing. For example, high-velocity deployment (we all have a lot of experience with that ;-) ), but this would end in successful recovery.
 
I don't want to initiate something that will go OT, but think about Apollo and the space program. The major problem is that the then Soviet Union stopped, not us. Same kind of thing with amateur rocket to space. How long ago was it that this happened? Wasn't anyone else working on this at the time? What happened?
I brought this up before on the forum, but how about first amateur rocket over the Atlantic ocean? Keep in mind that I consider this because of the interesting things that would have to be accomplished, not really caring about the being 1st thing. For example, high-velocity deployment (we all have a lot of experience with that ;-) ), but this would end in successful recovery.

This is a fascinating to get everyone's thoughts and perspectives on. Being the first is great, but my headspace is geared to democratizing these endeavors. We are at a point where we see space exploration moving from the domain of nations, to the domain of corporations, and given enough time, space exploration will become the domain of citizens. Demand for the tools to reach space now, will reduce the cost for everyone in the future. I feel like jqavins does, let's go to space and do some work. Let's send up science experiments, experimental hardware and software, cameras, people, commodities... I know some may find this uncouth, but if we desire to build space capable launch vehicles, then let's find others who want to reach space for work and profit, and get them to pay for our toys. In my perfect reality, I'd position an endeavor like this to ultimately transition into an Up Aerospace. In 20 years, the space economy is predicted to be valued at $2 Trillion, the demand is only going to get higher and SpaceX, Rocket Labs, Blue Origin, and Virgin bring down launch costs. Maybe the time has already passed to be the "The First" but there's still plenty of time to be a pioneer and to prove that the impossible is very much possible.
 
Ooh, I haven't heard anyone mention Up Aerospace in a long, long time. I was working for a small satellite company called Aero Astro at the time, which had flirted with partnering with Up Aero, before Up went down.
 
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