First rocket for Bob Moore, World Kite altitude record holder

I'm the team leader of the group that spent 10 years trying to break the altitude record for a single kite in Australia. We did it in 2014 with a flight to 16,009 ft. above ground level. I have become interested in rockets after consulting members about electronics. Some members have become interested in the kites and i have offered to make a kite at cost. (see my response to his post). I am planning further high altitude flights with targets of 25,000 ft. and 40,000 ft. for a single kite and a train of kites. I thought it would be interesting to launch some beginner rockets at our remote location when we visit. Who knows, I may become addicted and go for rocketry altitude records. What do you think would be a good rocket to start with?
Bob Moore

Hmmm, I would recommend: Any rocket you can get in the Australia region.

Do you want some simple low altitude stuff (under 3k feet/1km)? Or do you want to build up to a rocket that can chase your kite all the way up?
Hit up @OverTheTop or @plugger and I'm sure they could recommend providers.

Thanks for the reply. Just a small rocket to introduce myself to rocketry on a low wind day when we are sitting around bored. Not a designated activity for my approved zone so just want to keep it low key.
Bob Moore

Where abouts are you located Bob?

Assuming you can get something locally, I'd suggest any kit with a heavy wall 54mm cardboard airframe and a 29mm motor mount. That'll fly well on F motors to 500 or so feet or H motors to 2500-3000 feet. It's a low-cost way to get into composite motors and figure out if you like the hobby or not.

The Apogee Apprentice is a dead easy build and a lot of fun to fly for a newbie. Takes A, B and C motors
https://www.apogeerockets.com/Rocket-Kits/Skill-Level-1-Model-Rocket-Kits/Apprentice

Cheers

Estes Tandem X has two rockets, one pretty much ready to fly, one a simple but nice build, launch pad, and ignition system. All you need to buy is motors, wadding, and construction material for the build rocket (glue, primer, paint, if you want really smooth fins some carpenters wood filler.)

It’s a pretty good deal if you don’t already have a pad and ignition system

Droceretik said:

I thought it would be interesting to launch some beginner rockets at our remote location when we visit. Who knows, I may become addicted and go for rocketry altitude records. What do you think would be a good rocket to start with?
Bob Moore

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HI Bob,

Your best bet for beginner rockets and motors would be Australian Rocketry. https://ausrocketry.com.au/ That said I would definitely urge you to familiarise yourself with CASA rules around rocketry. My assumption is that they would be very similar to the instruments you have to organise to fly a kite to 16k'+ AGL, but that is an assumption. From my understanding as long as you stay below 500ft AGL you can launch rockets wherever you wish (excluding places where aircraft take off and land of course) but I would recommend you make sure you're staying right with CASA if you want to keep leveraging your remote location for kite flying purposes.

Any further questions please feel free to ask.

drew

Just found your website Bob and I see you're very familiar with CASA and NOTAMs. Good stuff. On the down side you're in NSW which is arguably one of the poorer states in Australia from an altitude ceiling perspective. If you start getting serious about high altitude rocket flights you might consider flying those projects out of Westmar, QLD with the Queensland Rocketry Society (https://qldrocketry.com) as they have the best ceiling in all of Australia.

OverTheTop said:

Where abouts are you located Bob?

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I am in Baulkham Hills, an outer suburb of Sydney, NSW.

plugger said:

HI Bob,

Your best bet for beginner rockets and motors would be Australian Rocketry. https://ausrocketry.com.au/ That said I would definitely urge you to familiarise yourself with CASA rules around rocketry. My assumption is that they would be very similar to the instruments you have to organise to fly a kite to 16k'+ AGL, but that is an assumption. From my understanding as long as you stay below 500ft AGL you can launch rockets wherever you wish (excluding places where aircraft take off and land of course) but I would recommend you make sure you're staying right with CASA if you want to keep leveraging your remote location for kite flying purposes.

Any further questions please feel free to ask.

drew

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Thanks mate. I am very mindful of not upsetting CASA, especially since I developed a great reputation and a trusting relationship with the sports aviation department. In the end they seemed to be trying to associate the record success with their regulator input and event approval. I get the impression I may have trouble with a request to 25,000 ft. but I have a different location about 100 km to the south of the record site. There were contrails above the record location that looked like 25,000 ft. plus from commercial jets on domestic runs between Brisbane and Adelaide. I may have moved 50 km to the south east of this route so I could get approval. An application will be the only way but applications will be about $600 these days. it's an expensive way of finding out I can't go for a record in a particular location. If I did fly rockets during kite record attempt series it would be between flights at low altitude. 500 ft. would be good for initial forays into rocketing. Do you guys (or girls) use drones to video rocket launches?
Bob Moore

plugger said:

Just found your website Bob and I see you're very familiar with CASA and NOTAMs. Good stuff. On the down side you're in NSW which is arguably one of the poorer states in Australia from an altitude ceiling perspective. If you start getting serious about high altitude rocket flights you might consider flying those projects out of Westmar, QLD with the Queensland Rocketry Society (https://qldrocketry.com) as they have the best ceiling in all of Australia.

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That's excellent information. I will consider that site if CASA knocks my application back for 20,000 ft. + flights.

Bob Moore

Droceretik said:

. Do you guys (or girls) use drones to video rocket launches?

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Drones, ground camera's, onboard cameras looking out and/or down.

It may be far in the future for you, but I bet it'd be pretty fun to launch the rocket and wave goodbye to your kite as it flies by in the footage later

If my team does manage 25,000 ft. for a single kite and 40,000 ft. for a kite train, I am not adverse to trying for a rocket altitude record. I'm a cocky and tenacious "bastard" aren't I? Up, up and away! Just remembered, I have virtually no money. I also have a "big mouth". My team members are going to take a shovel to our new site next month and If I succumb to some of the chronic medical conditions, would dig a hole and push me in to save funeral expenses. Us Australians have a black sense of humour.
Bob Moore

Droceretik said:

Thanks mate. I am very mindful of not upsetting CASA, especially since I developed a great reputation and a trusting relationship with the sports aviation department. In the end they seemed to be trying to associate the record success with their regulator input and event approval. I get the impression I may have trouble with a request to 25,000 ft. but I have a different location about 100 km to the south of the record site. There were contrails above the record location that looked like 25,000 ft. plus from commercial jets on domestic runs between Brisbane and Adelaide. I may have moved 50 km to the south east of this route so I could get approval. An application will be the only way but applications will be about $600 these days. it's an expensive way of finding out I can't go for a record in a particular location.

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My pleasure Bob. Great to hear that you're mindful about CASA, they're kinda important!

As for launch sites, you might want to have a chat with NSWRA https://www.nswrocketry.org.au/ as they're the closest HPR club to you geographically. If you worked with them to get a high altitude launch site like you're describing above that might be mutually beneficial to all involved. I know a few of the guys that fly with that club and they're good people.

Droceretik said:

If I did fly rockets during kite record attempt series it would be between flights at low altitude. 500 ft. would be good for initial forays into rocketing.

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That would make sense imho. Going from zero to record attempt flights is a great way to be miserable and poorer simultaneously!

Droceretik said:

Do you guys (or girls) use drones to video rocket launches?

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At WARS here in WA the answer is an emphatic absolutely NOT. The only exception to this is if you're a qualified Commercial License holding drone pilot. One of our club members holds that ticket.

Whilst in theory it would be great to get drone footage of launches in application it becomes a bit of a nightmare. It seems everyone and their sister these days has a Mavic or knock off and wants to fly it at rocket launches. Most have no clue regarding the CASA regulations surrounding private drone flying and constantly break those regulations. It started to get out of hand pretty quickly at our club so draconian measures had to be taken.

TLDR; if you want to fly drones join a drone club! We prefer to fly rockets.

Droceretik said:

If my team does manage 25,000 ft. for a single kite and 40,000 ft. for a kite train, I am not adverse to trying for a rocket altitude record. I'm a cocky and tenacious "bastard" aren't I? Up, up and away! Just remembered, I have virtually no money. I also have a "big mouth". My team members are going to take a shovel to our new site next month and If I succumb to some of the chronic medical conditions, would dig a hole and push me in to save funeral expenses. Us Australians have a black sense of humour.
Bob Moore

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More specifically when it comes to rocketry altitude records if you're serious about them you effectively have two options. 1) go for domestic records or 2) go for American records.

If you're interested in domestic records have a look at the AMRS Altitude Records page. https://rocketry.org.au/education/records/ If you have any questions regarding those please fire away. I happen to be the AMRS records committee chair so I think I'm fairly well positioned to answer your questions!

If you're interested in American records (which happen to occasionally be set by Aussies!) have a look around at Tripoli Records. https://tripoli-records.org/records/single.html

Basically if you're looking for altitude and you can't get your own instrument from CASA then you'll need to fly out of Westmar, QLD or Black Rock in Nevada, USA. Those two sites are the best available in the world from a altitude ceiling perspective.

Finally, I should mention rocketry isn't cheap when it comes to attempting to set altitude records. Unless you go for MPR and below records your total spend for a HPR record attempt will at a minimum approach four figures in Australia. That's taking into account vehicle construction costs, electronics (flight computer + tracking), and motor (reload and casing/closures). For the J motor record I hold here in Australia I had $450 USD in electronics alone on that flight (Raven 3 + TeleGPS).

CASA's requirements regarding model rocketry are pretty straightforward.

https://www.casa.gov.au/files/101c02pdf

I'm in northern NSW on a farm with a 400ft AGL ceiling.

On the upside we get to see the Boeing C-17 Globemaster III at 500ft doing contour hugging. Amazing...

If you're going to launch a beginner rocket down under, Southern Cross Rocketry makes the Mirabooka launch set, designed for teaching / student launches.

dhbarr said:

If you're going to launch a beginner rocket down under, Southern Cross Rocketry makes the Mirrabooka launch set, designed for teaching / student launches.

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Thanks all you rocketeers. You have been very kind with your advice. Probably won't be until April next year as I am recovering from major surgery much slower than I anticipated. As far as expense goes, the electronics I have cost over $2,500 but that includes 3 backups of everything. All up it had cost about $30,000 over 10 years and without line sponsorship from DSM in Holland and Cousin-Trestec in France, I would have spent $60,000. The new sponsorship from Toyobo in Japan with fibre for Tasline in New Zealand to braid line is worth at least $15,000 IMO. I like things that fly and if it wasn't big kites it would be gliders, rockets or skydiving although the latter is a bit scary.

Droceretik said:

or skydiving although the latter is a bit scary.

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Try paragliding. It is great to fly solo off a mountain. The good news is that you don't get in the air unless your chute is already open .

OverTheTop said:

Try paragliding. It is great to fly solo off a mountain. The good news is that you don't get in the air unless your chute is already open .

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I rather die in a paragliding accident than of infected bed sores in a nursing home. I was an RN for 43 years and I saw lots of that. Unfortunately we don't get to choose most of the time so lets fly before I forget how to! Up, up and away!!