Shootout - Estes Big Bertha vs the Estes Citation Patriot

Just for fun, two similarly sized BT60 classic model rockets, which one do you like better?

Citation Patriot!

BB was my first rocket, so holds a special place in my heart.

Bob,

That is one impressive display! Where was it at?

Bob,

Funny that you posted that picture of Vern holding a Citation Patriot, when you and I both know how HE would answer the question posed by the OP.....

I've only had one Citation Patriot (from the recent reissue) but have had a number of Berthas by now (will be maidening a just-built Boosted Bertha at Sod Blaster this weekend). That said, I just voted "undecided".


....and I should be loading my car for the trip to Sod Blaster instead of sitting here at the computer!

My first model rocket memory is of the Big Bertha that my older brothers had, it was painted all orange, so the new Boosted Bertha scheme looks just right to me. I probably used the left overs from the same can of orange paint they used to paint my first pinewood derby car as a Cub Scout.

Well, my grand mothers name was Bertha.... My 3rd or 4th rocket was the Big Bertha. Ended up using it in a school project. From what I remember the wind was just right and after the chute deployed it got "thermalized" enough to drift out of sight beyond some trees. Never found it. I think that was around 1968 or 69. For some reason this photo out of Estes catalog inspired me. I have never forgotten it.

Citation Patriot all the way. The BB has never done anything for me, even since I was a kid, though I understand its historical significance.

Citation Patriot err, optimized



-Bob

Neither. Estes Conquest because it felt harder than a HPR build. I felt challenged.

BRS Hobbies said:

Bob,

That is one impressive display! Where was it at?

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That was my display at the Old Rocketeers Reunion held at NARAM-60 last year.

There were many interesting displays at the ORR last year. Too bad there was no coverage in Sport Rocketry magazine (Not the magazine editors fault. No-one provided an article for the magazine).

neil_w said:

Citation Patriot all the way. The BB has never done anything for me, even since I was a kid, though I understand its historical significance.

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I could have written that word for word.

BRS Hobbies said:

Just for fun, two similarly sized BT60 classic model rockets, which one do you like better?
View attachment 391978 View attachment 391979

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I like the Citation Patriot so much, I bought and built it twice. I still have the original one that I built in high school over 35 years ago.

I have a Patriot Extreme on the bench....will update when it's ready.

So I built my first Citation Patriot this weekend and I must say I'm impressed. It's a nice solid feeling rocket. I did have a little bit of trouble with the big decals but it passes my 10 foot rule.

I guess, um, well, I guess I'd have to say Bertha. I keep going back and forth as to whether or not I like that design. On the on hand it's so very basic and plain-Jane. On the other hand it's such a clean, straightforward design. And those are really the same thing with different spins and I keep spinning.

Like a number of you above, a Bertha was my first rocket. That was in the mid '70s, and I totally screed up the build, never launched it, and became discouraged with the whole thing until I became a BAR in the early 2000s. I've got one in my build pile that, when I build it, will represent redemption.

I've had this notion (I've posted about it elsewhere) to make a series of up/downscale Berthas with a series of names like Tiny Tina for the MicroMaxx, and Colossal Cathy for the 75 or 98 mm engined version, and a bunch of others in between (Large Laura, Small Sarah, etc.) But then I think "Why? It's such a boring design."

So while my connection with Bertha is complicated, I have none with the Citation Patriot. So I'll have to vote Bertha.

Perplexed....if you go back and forth as to whether or not you like the design.....then try building a Patriot, and vote again.....we'll wait......

If it passes the 10ft rule, it will look great in the air!

I very much appreciate the great demo flight a BB offers on a C6. I also like the blunt nose look that’s different from all others. To me, the Citation Patriot is all about the decals, the rocket itself is rather non-descript. It’s funny, as a 15 yr old, I hated the BB. I thought it was ugly and hated the name, it made me think of an fat old woman that smelled of pee. Now I think of it as THE classic Estes rocket, even more than the Alpha, as we all know now the flaws, namely the limited room for wadding + recovery bits. Another interesting comparo would be with the other Patriot. Also a long time fave of similar size and performance. I think this is where Estes conventional rockets are at their best, bt-60 is a good size to follow without the flimsiness of bt-80. Bt-60 and 55 are my faves in the Estes lineup.

nosecone said:

So I built my first Citation Patriot this weekend and I must say I'm impressed. It's a nice solid feeling rocket. I did have a little bit of trouble with the big decals but it passes my 10 foot rule.

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I'm finishing up the decals on my Citation Patriot this week. The trick to getting those big decals on well is to make very light pencil alignment marks to keep them straight, and to make certain the surface has plenty of liquid to "float" the decals onto from the backing paper. If you position the decal edge right on your alignment marks, the marks disappear. Hot water with some white glue (just enough to make the water cloudy) dissolved in it works great to position and snug down the decal.

Bruiser said:

Citation Patriot err, optimized
-Bob

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Optimized? Enhanced!!!



As to the poll... The CP has a disadvantage. The BB has been in constant production for decades. The CP went out of production in the 1980s, and didn't come back until last year. Thus the BB has more recognition.

Red7Fifty said:

Perplexed....if you go back and forth as to whether or not you like the design.....then try building a Patriot, and vote again.....we'll wait......

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BB is a low skill level [3|4]FNC, and the CP appears to be the same. For rockets like this, it's all about a) the look and b) the emotional connection. Both rocket's looks are, to me, nothing special, so it's all down to the connection. My connection to BB is complex, as I described. My connection to the CP is nill, and building one just to help answer a poll would not manage to change that. For me.

Back in the 1980s when I got into rocketry, the BB had a plain decal set.....the Patriot had multiple color decals, Red, White, and Blue (all American, like a Ford Mustang), flags, an Eagle, plus Gold background... The only gold decals I had before were from the Colossus....which really added some sparkle.
I originally didn't like the single black fin, but that's grown on me now.

Where's the option for

N) I don't have an emotional connection to these rockets and am attempting to figure out the appeal

My question is, would the Patriot be any less cool if it:
wren't named 'Patriot'
Wasn't adorned with the 'Red, White & blue'..



I'm not trying to troll. growing up in Quebec, we tend to not show our nationalistic pride or be overly patriotic..

The airshow F16 ThunderBirds, without their fancy paint scheme, would just be a bunch of F16 fighters....but, with the fancy paint job, they become airshow performers.

My attraction to the Citation Patriot has very little to do with the fact that its paint scheme is "patriotic"... just that it's a good looking paint scheme with tons of nice decals. Just MHO.

Having said that, it's also likely that we as Americans are more naturally receptive to this sort of decor due to our upbringing.

Red7Fifty said:

The airshow F16 ThunderBirds, without their fancy paint scheme, would just be a bunch of F16 fighters....but, with the fancy paint job, they become airshow performers.

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When they're in the air the paint scheme is barely visible while they're a bunch of F16s performing a remarkable aerial dance. IMO the planes inherit much more of their cool factor from what pilots do with them than from how they're painted.

What? When a regular F-16 is in the air the paint scheme is barely visible and therefore so is the aircraft. The paint scheme the Thunderbirds wear is highly visible and was designed to be so. Think of it this way--if you can see a small fighter aircraft moving at nearly the speed of sound without difficulty, it is sporting a highly visible paint scheme.

-Bob