Lakewood Colorado Shutting down C.R.A.S.H launches at Bear lake

Have you checked with local R/C flying clubs about using their flying sites? Larger clubs can even have paved runways.

One example:

Broomfield Remote Control Airfield Park

https://www.broomfield.org/2767/Remote-Control-Airfield-Park

Satellite view:

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9603391,-105.0366532,365m/data=!3m1!1e3

Colorado RC airplane clubs and flying fields

https://www.rc-airplane-world.com/colorado-rc-airplane-clubs.html

Winston said:

Have you checked with local R/C flying clubs about using their flying sites? Larger clubs can even have paved runways.

One example:

Broomfield Remote Control Airfield Park

https://www.broomfield.org/2767/Remote-Control-Airfield-Park

Satellite view:

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9603391,-105.0366532,365m/data=!3m1!1e3

Colorado RC airplane clubs and flying fields

https://www.rc-airplane-world.com/colorado-rc-airplane-clubs.html

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Yes . There is a possibility up North with the Arvada club
Would always have to make sure an AMA member was present. Maybe the gravel pit next door as well.

Daddyisabar said:

Yes . There is a possibility up North with the Arvada club
Would always have to make sure an AMA member was present. Maybe the gravel pit next door as well.

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I believe AMA insurance for full members (not the reduced price "Park Pilot" membership) still includes personal rocket accident coverage since the NAR sprung from the AMA. The need to have an AMA member present is because they are an AMA sanctioned club? Wouldn't NAR insurance cover you anyway?

Anyway, the launches and R/C flying should have some kind of overlap since the R/C clubs can look at it as possibly attracting new members from rocket hobbyists and launch attendees and the rocket clubs from R/C hobbyists and flying day attendees. Plus, that makes it no extra hassle for the R/C club since on a flying day there's going to be AMA members there anyway since most R/C clubs require AMA membership for insurance reasons.

The NAR didn't "spring" out of the AMA. Harry Stine founded the organization independently of AMA.

Having said that, the AMA is a fine organization and I am an member.

CoachSteve said:

I don't really know what to do here. It seems that after 30 years of launches the City of Lakewood can just shut the only local launch club down.
https://www.thedenverchannel.com/ne...ll-future-flights-out-of-bear-creek-lake-park

Just individuals attending city council meetings isn't going to cut it - any thoughts on something with significant impact that can be done here?

thanks all

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I’m not trying to be a nuisance, but have you ever thought of changing the name of your club to something that would sound a little more positive? I would start with that, and with creating a new image for your club and the hobby. To someone unfamiliar with rocketry or your club’s acronym - “CRASH” immediately brings up negative associations. Just a thought.

Starfire73 said:

I’m not trying to be a nuisance, but have you ever thought of changing the name of your club to something that would sound a little more positive? I would start with that, and with creating a new image for your club and the hobby. To someone unfamiliar with rocketry or your club’s acronym - “CRASH” immediately brings up negative associations. Just a thought.

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I thought this too. The word has a very negative valence. I originally chose not to say anything about but now that it's out there, I agree that the first time people hear of your activities it shouldn't be in a negative way that might be offputting from the outset.

GuyNoir said:

The NAR didn't "spring" out of the AMA. Harry Stine founded the organization independently of AMA.

Having said that, the AMA is a fine organization and I am an member.

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"Spring" was the wrong word. Somewhere I read that the first organization to endorse model rocketry was the AMA and that's the reason for the vestigial rocketry insurance in their coverage. Of course, whoever wrote that could be wrong.

The AMA leadership is a testicular free organization of old men who allowed the federal government to totally unnecessarily get their foot in the door in the STATISTICALLY PROVEN TO BE INCREDIBLY SAFE hobby of R/C aircraft via fedgov generated and sensationalist, brain-dead media propagated "drone" hysteria. Remember the pending 2015 Christmas drone apocalypse that started it all? Even large numbers of people in the hobby bought the BS hype because they didn't bother to independently investigate. Now, all R/C pilots must register with the government even if they fly 0.001 mm over the grass in their own freaking backyard. Expect more restrictions to come now that their foot is in the door.

WhiskyTangoFoxtrot said:

Thank you SecondRow. Sound advice to those who are obvious extremely wet behind the ears. The officials DON'T give a good goddamn about a bunch of old that aren't going to be able to play with their toys anymore. And an online petition IS worth LESS than the piece of paper it's printed on. I know what will happen at that meeting. A committee will be formed to "further study" the issue. (If you're lucky.). And they'll string you along with the same amount of bullshit until the deadline approaches and this will happen: You'll be praised for your past accomplishments, patted on the head and told to go play with your toys somewhere else. Face: The decision's been made

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Are you always this helpful, or do you enjoy being so encouraging... Your attitude would not be welcome in most organizations I belong to... With your “vast experience with government”, maybe something more positive would be helpful.

Frederocket said:

Are you always this helpful, or do you enjoy being so encouraging... Your attitude would not be welcome in most organizations I belong to... With your “vast experience with government”, maybe something more positive would be helpful.

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He's just a typical internet troll. He probably doesn't even know what a model rocket is.

These folks have my sympathy. I know what it's like to not have a place to fly and was pretty much forced out of the hobby because of it.

Frederocket said:

Are you always this helpful, or do you enjoy being so encouraging... Your attitude would not be welcome in most organizations I belong to... With your “vast experience with government”, maybe something more positive would be helpful.

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You do know WhiskyTangoFoxtrot is military for WTF

At the risk of inciting copyright violation... the discussion has taken a bit of a turn...


Obviously I don't live in Lakewood... but it's with some interest that I am watching this thread. At one time, Model Rocketry was virtually impossible to practice in the entire state of Massachusetts... I read somewhere (forgive the paraphrasing) that "...model rockets are considered to be fireworks..." by the state. That obviously got changed by someone or some group working hard to change that perception. Nobody would say it'll be easy. But you're not dead yet, either.

Uh, my NAR Number is slightly above 10,000 Sr and I was a school board member in my hometown for over 25 years.

From what I hear and seen on the council video all went
Petition at nearly 600 signatures. Thanks to everyone for their support of the club

Any further news?

More presentations to City Counsil last night and they all went well. I think four council members have shown up at the launch and the coverage on the 5PM news was also positive. We rebuffed the Park on legal issues on classifying model rockets as fireworks, explosives and missiles. Also debunked the Park's claim that model rockets are banned under Army Corps of Engineers guidelines for the Dam area .
We had a nice 6 minute power point presentation and local educators also input supportive commentary. I don't think anyone on the Council is against us, they have all been very supportive. The Mayor said there will be a third meeting with the Park.

Apparently the second meeting/call last week with the Park managers not go well as they just want the illegal "missles" gone and said we should find another location, end of discussion.

Still no word on specific complaints the Park received. No documentation provided.

All we can do is speculate on who is P-Oed at us. It only takes one to stir up trouble.

Plans to draft a letter to City Attorney are in the works. The process continues. Will keep on sending anyone we can for brief three minute public comments to the Council.

Daddyisabar said:

More presentations to City Counsil last night and they all went well. I think four council members have shown up at the launch and the coverage on the 5PM news was also positive. We rebuffed the Park on legal issues on classifying model rockets as fireworks, explosives and missiles. Also debunked the Park's claim that model rockets are banned under Army Corps of Engineers guidelines for the Dam area .
We had a nice 6 minute power point presentation and local educators also input supportive commentary. I don't think anyone on the Council is against us, they have all been very supportive. The Mayor said there will be a third meeting with the Park.

Apparently the second meeting/call last week with the Park managers not go well as they just want the illegal "missles" gone and said we should find another location, end of discussion.

Still no word on specific complaints the Park received. No documentation provided.

All we can do is speculate on who is P-Oed at us. It only takes one to stir up trouble.

Plans to draft a letter to City Attorney are in the works. The process continues. Will keep on sending anyone we can for brief three minute public comments to the Council.

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That's really awesome work. You have really stood up and made it happen for the rocketeers. I know that there is a significant chance that CRASH will lose the field anyway, but if not for some amazing effort on your part, it would have already been a done deal. Keep swinging for the fences.

Jim

Jim Hinton said:

That's really awesome work. You have really stood up and made it happen for the rocketeers. I know that there is a significant chance that CRASH will lose the field anyway, but if not for some amazing effort on your part, it would have already been a done deal. Keep swinging for the fences.

Jim

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Thanks on behalf of the club president and vice president. Also to all the members and other attendees at our last launch who showed up at the meeting.

We talk about you guys at our launches. We’re cheering you on from out here. You’re doing a great job. Keep at it.

Thanks for the update Daddy. Good luck with the Parks and Rec apparatchiks. Whatever the outcome, I gotta think that the club has garnered some goodwill with city councilpersons and the public. May mean something down the road.

Daddyisabar said:

Apparently the second meeting/call last week with the Park managers not go well as they just want the illegal "missles" gone and said we should find another location, end of discussion.

Still no word on specific complaints the Park received. No documentation provided.

All we can do is speculate on who is P-Oed at us. It only takes one to stir up trouble.

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that a reads like a good assumption of who complained is the park managers.
illegal missiles- them park managers sure gave me a laugh with that one!

Do the Parks & Rec people fall under city government? If so, check with your city council people to find out if it would be helpful to draft a revision to the local ordinance that would allow you to launch. Or at minimum, a set of guidelines that would cover you. EG "Rockets are not permitted except as part of a reserved launch. The organization making the reservation must be a member of NAR or TRA and will observe the following requirements..." If everyone on the council supports you, then just making it legal is probably the way to go.

After you read this ya got to wonder, did Santa drop the ball and forgot to put the Estes rocket kit in that persons stocking when they were a kid?

boatgeek said:

Do the Parks & Rec people fall under city government? If so, check with your city council people to find out if it would be helpful to draft a revision to the local ordinance that would allow you to launch. Or at minimum, a set of guidelines that would cover you. EG "Rockets are not permitted except as part of a reserved launch. The organization making the reservation must be a member of NAR or TRA and will observe the following requirements..." If everyone on the council supports you, then just making it legal is probably the way to go.

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Do not say "rockets", say "Model Rockets". They have a legal definition.

I do not think listing NAR and TRA will be legal as it will exclude any other group. It should just require permission, usually in the form of a park use permit with whatever associated fees and insurance requirements. Most other groups will never be able to meet the insurance requirements, but NAR can easily do this. That is why our NAR Section runs the launches and we have many, many school and scout groups come and launch at our launches. They have no idea how to do it on their own or they are incapable of doing so on their own (in this County). Ca State Fire Regulations require permission of the property owner and a permit from the Fire Authority Having Jurisdiction (AHJ). We have that in writing.

Our club launches in a large Los Angeles County Regional Park which is located within a City (not the "City of Los Angeles") and is on US Army Corps of Engineers land. We have special certificates of insurance for all 3 entities as well as an "Endorsement" in the NAR insurance policy. We pay a big fee to use the park. We schedule the launch days well in advance to avoid conflicts with other park activities/events. We are EXTREMELY careful to follow the NAR Model Rocket Safety Code and also impose SANITY based limits if conditions require them to PREVENT model rockets from crashing into areas beyond our permitted use area. In other words, if there are other park users nearby, you MUST prevent rockets from crashing or flying under power outside of your approved launch AND RECOVERY area and toward other unsuspecting park patrons.

If that means a club imposed power and altitude limits, then document that when you apply for a park use permit.

We must do that for 2 months of the year when a the huge Renaissance Fair rents out most of the park and we as displaced to a much smaller launch and recovery area. The Ren-Fair pays the county tens of thousands of dollars in fees and the park also gets tens of thousands of dollars in vehicle entrance fees. $$$$ always wins with politicians.

It's a tentative solution for just next year, but we did it! I just saw this on Facebook:

GREAT NEWS for 2020 from Lakewood, CO!!!
Dear NAR Membership:
We received some very good news from the Lakewood City Manager. We will be flying in 2020 while we work on a permanent solution with the City of Lakewood and City Council. Thanks to everyone that has helped us get this far! We will need your continued support in 2020 to make sure we get to fly at Bear Creek Lake Park for the next 30 years and beyond.
Best wishes,
Matt Morgan

Please see message below from Lakewood City Manager, Kathy Hodgson, to Lakewood’s Mayor & Council.
As in the past, Drew Sprafke will be your contact. In addition to supporting your efforts through the remainder of the 2019 year, Drew can work with you all on the details of launches for 2020.
Kind regards,
Kit

www.lakewood.org/CommunityResources
Good morning Mayor and City Council,
Staff has been working diligently toward a positive outcome for the model rocket enthusiasts at Bear Creek Lake Park. We certainly admire the passion, commitment and professionalism expressed from the membership. Thank you also, for the productive discussions that have taken place between City Council and staff. We appreciate your commitment to our collective success.
In an effort to continue to support the activities and educational opportunities provided by CRASH, the group will be issued a one year extension of use at the park. This will give the city more time to work with the organization and other stakeholders to identify a permanent solution.
In order to accommodate this extension, staff will be working with the Army Corp of Engineers, West Metro Fire Protection Services, and the City’s insurance provider, in order to find a resolution regarding this nontraditional use. Additionally, staff will be working with CRASH on implementing some of the suggestions they have made over the past several months, such as posting signage in the park on launch days.
Though this has been a difficult situation to work through, and many challenges remain, I am confident that through a continued dialog and with open minds a good long-term outcome will be reached.
Staff will be contacting the group to inform them of the good news and to continue the conversation. Feel free to contact me with questions.
Thanks, and have a great weekend.
Kathy
Kathy Hodgson
Lakewood.org

(I edited out all the redundant email addresses and phone numbers from the original post)

Excellent news! This thread should be a sticky. That way if other clubs find themselves in the same situation they can use CRASH's methods as a guideline.

Congratulations, CRASH! Well done.

WhiskyTangoFoxtrot said:

You have no clue how municipal governments work. None. Zero. Zip. Nada.

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WhiskyTangoFoxtrot said:

However noble your effort, you have to remember that municipal governments are elected bodies. Elected bodies cater to the whims of voters who can either keep them in office or send them home. There's a big difference in going down swinging and tilting at windmills.

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WhiskyTangoFoxtrot said:

Thank you SecondRow. Sound advice to those who are obvious extremely wet behind the ears. The officials DON'T give a good goddamn about a bunch of old that aren't going to be able to play with their toys anymore. And an online petition IS worth LESS than the piece of paper it's printed on. I know what will happen at that meeting. A committee will be formed to "further study" the issue. (If you're lucky.). And they'll string you along with the same amount of bullshit until the deadline approaches and this will happen: You'll be praised for your past accomplishments, patted on the head and told to go play with your toys somewhere else. Face: The decision's been made

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WhiskyTangoFoxtrot said:

There's only three words missing from your oratory: There's also a big difference between a two bit demagogue and a representative who truly represents the best interest of A MAJORITY OF their constituents. I know from lots of personal experience that both types of people are found in government. Encourage them to do the right thing and give them the space and support to do so. If they act like jerks, it isn't because we didn't care. If that's 'tilting at windmills' it sure beats going quietly into the night. You make iot sound like the fate of Lakewood Colorado depends on keeping C.R.A.S.H. in that park. It doesn't, trust me.

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WhiskyTangoFoxtrot said:

https://www.thedenverchannel.com/ne...ll-future-flights-out-of-bear-creek-lake-park Read the article. Launching model rockets is illegal in Lakewood Colorado. I-l-l-e-g-a-l. You were grandfathered in for 30 years. Conditions changed . Quit your bitchin' , enjoy the memories and look for a new field. The town has got you dead to rights

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WhiskyTangoFoxtrot said:

I bet the Lakewood Parks and Recreation Department is quivering in their boots

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WhiskyTangoFoxtrot said:

Uh, my NAR Number is slightly above 10,000 Sr and I was a school board member in my hometown for over 25 years.

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Me so happy!

Wow! Well done to the CRASH folks. You really went all out, and it is awesome to see it pay off. Good luck on getting to that long term solution.

Wow, that is just awesome. Lakewood way exceeded my expectations. That is a first class job CRASH folks. I think you managed to achieve the best possible outcome. Congratulations!!

Jim

Great work.
Don’t stop.