Disappointing launch day attempts

Tried a demo launch today for a half-dozen kids at a local church. Managed ONE successful launch.

The launch controller functioned correctly. When tested it would heat up and generate smoke from an Estes starter. However only one engine lit from that. I tried over ten different starters, made sure all were well seated and held in place (Estes plugs, wadding, or tape) and triple-checked that nothing was grounding the igniter leads. Tested a couple starters without engine and got smoke from 2 of 3. Also tried a new battery.

I was using the cheap orange Estes controller with a 9v battery.

Is there just not enough juice in 9v to ignite engines with the new starters? Never had these problems with my club’s 12v launcher.

Others will have better answers, but I now ream out all BP motors with a small Phillips screwdriver. I had a pack of motors that wouldn't start. When I looked up clay was covering the BP. Quick couple turns with a small screwdriver and no problems since.

What brand of battery? It has been noted that there is a real difference in performance with Duracells or Energizers vs. off-brands.

Was it a fresh 9v battery?

I had similar results when attempting to launch with my brother. He had the 9V battery launcher, and did not manage a successful launch with it. He tried two new batteries. I had a 4x AA launcher, and it launched all our rockets that day.

I remember a demo launch at Space camp a few years back in Huntsville, AL. They had a long line of Estes rockets, and only got one up in the air! The others all had different forms of launch failures: didn't get off the launch rod, tipped the launch rod over and cartwheeled on the ground, a cato that popped the parachute, etc... Somehow the bad luck strikes always for demo launches!

The Estes igniters & the orange controller are bad, not very reliable. We had no end of issues with our one.
It can be a low/old 9V battery or can be insufficient voltage or just crap igniter.

We tried the Estes igniters on the clubs 12v controller and results were better, but not 100% reliable.

We swapped to aerotech first-fire mini and 100% success on them.

I was using Energizer batteries. Both were a year old, but the second had never been used. I guess I’ll look into a better launch controller for my personal launches.

Low budget suggestions? I don’t need anything fancy. I do want reliability. I never had issues with the old lantern battery controller in the 70s but the igniters were different then too.

I always had trouble with the new 9 volt controller. The 4- AA launch controller works great. Maybe it's a battery current issue. I tried a few new 9 volts with no joy.

BBowmaster said:

I was using Energizer batteries. Both were a year old, but the second had never been used. I guess I’ll look into a better launch controller for my personal launches.

Low budget suggestions? I don’t need anything fancy. I do want reliability.

Click to expand...

I love the Pratt Go Box.
https://pratt-hobbies.com/proddetail.asp?prod=GO-12
It is $45 plus shipping, and I got it with the cigarette lighter adapter which fits into my
STANLEY FATMAX J7CS Power Station Jump Starter:

Which I keep in my car anyway.

Very easy to use and reliable.

Both the controller and igniters can be upgraded for faster and more reliable ignition.
But I think the stock Estes igniter and el cheapo controller can be made to work.
Looks like you did everything right, but from personal experience I find that the ignition with the 6/9 volt controllers can take several seconds longer than with a 12v auto battery setup. So try holding the launch button down longer (like several seconds longer) before calling a misfire.
I believe that the primary trigger of the ignition is not the clear coating burning, but the nichrome bridge wire heating and becoming red hot. Like in the old days when we used to take thin nichrome wire and loop it around a pencil tip and stick it up the nozzle. The clear coating is not a pyrogen, so I think it's purpose is to separate the fragile bridge wire and keep it from shorting. And to avoid postal regulations regarding the shipping of pyrogenic materials.
I'm sure someone will chime in and correct me if I'm wrong.
Cheers.

kuririn said:

I'm sure someone will chime in and correct me if I'm wrong.

Click to expand...

I think you nailed it all 100%.

Bottom line: the Estes igniters work fine when used properly, and with sufficient juice in the controller. 9V alkaline batteries are kind of borderline for this purpose, but a fresh, good-brand battery can work if you hold it down long enough. This could indeed mean several seconds.

Pyrogen-based of BT-enhanced igniters will work a bit better, to be sure.

Also, if you're so inclined, lithium rechargeable 9V batteries can be had, and I believe they'll supply considerably more current. But you'll need to have a charger for them.

Finally: the Estes Pro Series Controller is nice and quite affordable (6 x AA batteries = plenty of juice, or you can swap in a LIPO for even more).

One thing to make sure of is that the igniter is in contact with the propellent in the motor.

I know basic stuff, just thought I would mention it

Yeah, the one successful launch was after about 5 seconds of button holding. Weird (to me) was that I’d still have continuity after holding the button for 10 seconds.

I’ll try a better controller with more juice. The orange launcher came in a clearance-sale $5 starter box about six years ago so an upgrade isn’t unreasonable for when I’m not launching with my club.

kuririn said:

BBowmaster said:

Tried a demo launch today for a half-dozen kids at a local church. Managed ONE successful launch.

The launch controller functioned correctly. When tested it would heat up and generate smoke from an Estes starter. However only one engine lit from that. I tried over ten different starters, made sure all were well seated and held in place (Estes plugs, wadding, or tape) and triple-checked that nothing was grounding the igniter leads. Tested a couple starters without engine and got smoke from 2 of 3. Also tried a new battery.

I was using the cheap orange Estes controller with a 9v battery.

Click to expand...

Both the controller and igniters can be upgraded for faster and more reliable ignition.
But I think the stock Estes igniter and el cheapo controller can be made to work.
Looks like you did everything right, but from personal experience I find that the ignition with the 6/9 volt controllers can take several seconds longer than with a 12v auto battery setup. So try holding the launch button down longer (like several seconds longer) before calling a misfire.

Click to expand...

Indeed.
Alas, the longer ignition timing has much to do with the latest (white tip) flavor of Estes igniters. They don't burst into flame like the old (black tip) igniters, but kinda smolder for 1-3 seconds. Sometimes that's enough to get an Estes BP motors going, other times it's not.

One solution is to coat the tip of the new (anemic) Estes igniters with a light coat of highly flammable fabric glue, then dip them in 4F black powder. That improved my observed ignition success rate from ~50% to ~90% during my last Scouts launch day.

Another solution is to coat tips with pyrogen, but that's a little harder to source.

neil_w said:

Bottom line: the Estes igniters work fine when used properly, and with sufficient juice in the controller. 9V alkaline batteries are kind of borderline for this purpose, but a fresh, good-brand battery can work if you hold it down long enough. This could indeed mean several seconds.

Click to expand...

I haven't noticed any improvement in new Estes igniters' performance between the 6V, 9V, and 12V batteries. Tried them all, had equal marginal success rate with all of the above ignition sources.

In my experience, the problem is not getting the new Estes igniters going, but getting enough of a flame to light the BP in the motor.
It does help to keep the power source button pressed longer, but it helps even more to coat the tips of the igniters with something highly flammable.

I took a side-by-side video of the new vanilla Estes igniter vs. dipped one smoldering vs. flaring up.
Will share it when I find it.

BBowmaster said:

Is there just not enough juice in 9v to ignite engines with the new starters? Never had these problems with my club’s 12v launcher.

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I've personally had plenty of issues getting new Estes igniters going even the club's 12V power source.
On A/B/C/D motors, I coat igniters with an additional layer of either BP or pyrogen.
On E/F/G motors, I've given up on the bundled Estes igniters, and use Estes Sonic (or Wildman) igniters instead.

YMMV,
a

I am absolutely in favor of dipping Estes igniters in BP or pyrogen dip or whatever (and Alex if you make another batch I will happily purchase some from you), but I can only say this: I have had 100% success with the new Estes igniters on club 12V launch systems, at least for flying non-clustered rockets. My total number of flights is not that large, but it's probably somewhere north of 30 with no failures. I can't explain why I have so much better luck with them than other folks; it's not like I'm some kind of igniter savant or anything, but they just always work for me.

On the other hand, I had considerable trouble the one time I tried to use them with a 9V Estes launch controller. Later I concluded that (a) I wasn't holding the button down long enough, and (b) I wasn't using a fresh Duracell (or Energizer). That was when I went and purchased the Estes Pro Series launch controller, which I have since used exactly zero times because I always fly with clubs now. (I'm holding onto it because if I ever go flying alone, I want something I'll have more confidence in.)

I was a big Pooh Pooh-er of the new white Estes “starters”. I followed Der MicroMeister’s advice, ditched the plastic plugs, and push the igniter all the way in the a ball of wadding with a mechanical pencil plastic tip (tight enough that for a medium 18 mm rocket i can support the weight of the rocket holding one lead. My results are about as good as the previous black tips. For clusters I am liking the first fire minis.

The orange launch controller absolutely needs good quality 9V batteries, and the leads must be as clean as possible. Otherwise you may have a tough time getting enough current through the Estes starters to reliably start a motor. One relatively inexpensive alternative that I've started using, is the Estes E launch controller. It is powered by AA batteries, and has longer, thicker-gauge wires. Amazon has these for around $20. There have been a number of reports of disappointing launch attempts with the Estes orange controller that I feel it would be in their best interest to replace it with another AA-powered controller.

I mostly fly club or with a homemade launcher, but either way we usually dip our starters first in some rubbing alcohol and then into some BP. We work with some young children and their parents who have never launched a rocket before, so it helps make the process a bit more newbie proof.

I've done a few dozen launches with stock igniters and a stock box, but at least the one I have from about a decade ago uses AA batteries. I haven't had any misfires the last two years, but I think the important part is first making sure that the nozzle is clear and that the end is touching the propellant. Also, you have to baby the igniters to make sure that the contacts don't break. Good luck!

I recommend upgrading to the Estes PS II launch controller which sells for under $40. It has more juice and just seems more reliable in general.