Cert flight with cluster or multistage rocket or unconventional recovery?

informal poll. Has anyone here qualified at any level flying a cluster or multi stage rocket?
Has anyone qualified using recovery method other than chute or streamer? Any helicopter recovery or glider cert flights?

TRA rules prohibit any thing other than single motor, single stage.
Only recovery is a parachute.
https://www.tripoli.org/Certification
I believe the last L3 attempt with a two stage before the rule was at LDRS 17, at Salt Flats.

MClark said:

TRA rules prohibit any thing other than single motor, single stage.
Only recovery is a parachute.
https://www.tripoli.org/Certification
I believe the last L3 attempt with a two stage before the rule was at LDRS 17, at Salt Flats.

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Apparently then this poll is open to only NAR certificated flyers.

solid_fuel said:

Apparently then this poll is open to only NAR certificated flyers.

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Multiple stage and clustered rockets are specifically disallowed for certification flights.

Taken straight from NAR requirements.

dhbarr said:

Multiple stage and clustered rockets are specifically disallowed for certification flights.

Taken straight from NAR requirements.

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then what is this line for? : Cluster or staged models used for certification may not contain over 640.00 Newton seconds total impulse. In the case of a cluster or staged model, at least one of the individual motors must be an H or I impulse motor.

from point 2 subpoint 4 https://www.nar.org/high-power-rocketry-info/level-1-hpr-certification/

solid_fuel said:

then what is this line for? : Cluster or staged models used for certification may not contain over 640.00 Newton seconds total impulse. In the case of a cluster or staged model, at least one of the individual motors must be an H or I impulse motor.

from point 2 subpoint 4 https://www.nar.org/high-power-rocketry-info/level-1-hpr-certification/

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Interesting, so 0-1, 1-2 is okay but 2-3 is verboten.

If I ever go for level 1 it will be on a helicopter

The question shouldn't be "who's done what?" but "why?".
Why would you want to make a certification flight more complex than it has to be? It could be an ego thing.
We get a lot of college students attempting their L1 cert flights with us. Sometimes all goes well; lots of times the cert fails from a basic part of the flight not working. In many cases, the cert attempt is their first-ever and final flight - just something to put on the resume.
Keep it simple. Once you get certified, then show off.

KennB said:

The question shouldn't be "who's done what?" but "why?".
Why would you want to make a certification flight more complex than it has to be? It could be an ego thing.
We get a lot of college students attempting their L1 cert flights with us. Sometimes all goes well; lots of times the cert fails from a basic part of the flight not working. In many cases, the cert attempt is their first-ever and final flight - just something to put on the resume.
Keep it simple. Once you get certified, then show off.

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No. My question is has anyone even done it. I want to know if anyone has done it. Maybe I’ll get into the why did you do it after I find out if anyone even has.

Seems to me that several years ago someone got his Level 1 cert with an RC boost glider (Called Vulcan, if I remember). Sorry that can't remember his name. Flight video was online.

Found it! Ari Krupnik is his name. He was on the forums back then...

KennB said:

The question shouldn't be "who's done what?" but "why?".
Why would you want to make a certification flight more complex than it has to be? It could be an ego thing.

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Perhaps. Or possibly because maybe it hasn’t been done before. Or because there is more of a challenge.

If I go for L2, it'll probably be an R/C Rocket Glider. Maybe an 8X to 10X Astron Space Plane.

My L1 cert was with a boilerplate Little Joe-II, 7" diameter, 4 feet tall. Cluster of a G25 plus six C6's (pic below). That was 1991, when the cert process for L1 was to fly a G powered rocket. Have not flown any motor bigger than a G since then, but many HPR flights.....due to combined propellant mass of clustered or staged models. Had the scale 7" Little Joe-II not crashed on its third flight, I did plan to fly it on an H45 and six D12's.

BABAR said:

Perhaps. Or possibly because maybe it hasn’t been done before. Or because there is more of a challenge.

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I was thinking more towards there might be flyers who don’t care for 3FNC or 4FNC rockets and only fly R/C boost gliders or maybe there’s a flyer who only ever flys cluster rockets or maybe a guy whose only interesed in multi stage rockets. I mean fly what you like. Why buy a rocket only to cert on when you’re never going to fly it again?

My L2 rocket pre-decals.
Built to cluster, but the L2 wasn’t flown as a cluster.

The rules were changed, IIRC 10-15 years ago to require a 'conventional' rocket with a single motor and parachute recovery. Get your cert on the basic rocket, then fly RCBGs to your heart's content
It used to be clusters and oddrocs allowed as long as at least 1 motor was of the cert level. Too many failures and unsafe flights caused the rule change. Before that, there was 'confirmation' - fly any HPR motor then you could buy ANY available motor You can fly a rocket designed for clusters but the cert flight must be on a single motor. Design accordingly.

Rocketjunkie said:

The rules were changed, IIRC 10-15 years ago to require a 'conventional' rocket with a single motor and parachute recovery. Get your cert on the basic rocket, then fly RCBGs to your heart's content
It used to be clusters and oddrocs allowed as long as at least 1 motor was of the cert level. Too many failures and unsafe flights caused the rule change. Before that, there was 'confirmation' - fly any HPR motor then you could buy ANY available motor You can fly a rocket designed for clusters but the cert flight must be on a single motor. Design accordingly.

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I’m pretty sure this is not the case with NAR. NAR has provisions for clusters and staging for both Level 1 and Level 2. I didn’t look at Level 3 requirements but I think Level 3 requires a single motor only. Tripoli has all three levels require single motor only.

georgegassaway said:

If I go for L2, it'll probably be an R/C Rocket Glider. Maybe an 8X to 10X Astron Space Plane.

My L1 cert was with a boilerplate Little Joe-II, 7" diameter, 4 feet tall. Cluster of a G25 plus six C6's (pic below). That was 1991, when the cert process for L1 was to fly a G powered rocket. Have not flown any motor bigger than a G since then, but many HPR flights.....due to combined propellant mass of clustered or staged models. Had the scale 7" Little Joe-II not crashed on its third flight, I did plan to fly it on an H45 and six D12's.

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That’s freakin sweet.

solid_fuel said:

I pretty sure this is not the case with NAR. NAR has provisions for clusters and staging for both Level 1 and Level 2. I didn’t look at Level 3 requirements but I think Level 3 requires a single motor only. Tripoli has all three levels require single motor only.

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Your mistaking what you can do after you have gotten your cert and what you can do FOR your cert flight.

SDramstad said:

Your mistaking what you can do after you have gotten your cert and what you can do FOR your cert flight.

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Am I, though?

SDramstad said:

Your mistaking what you can do after you have gotten your cert and what you can do FOR your cert flight.

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Also it’s you’re.

SDramstad said:

Your mistaking what you can do after you have gotten your cert and what you can do FOR your cert flight.

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Nope. Right in the certification rules:
Certification Process and Documentation
Snip steps 1 through 3...
Step 4:
The modeler must demonstrate his ability to build and fly a rocket containing at least one H or I impulse class motor. Cluster or staged models used for certification may not contain over 640.00 Newton seconds total impulse. In the case of a cluster or staged model, at least one of the individual motors must be an H or I impulse motor. Combinations of D, E, F or G motors that meet the impulse requirements do not qualify as the model does not contain at least one H or I impulse motor. Single use, reloadable, or hybrid technology motors are permitted. The modeler must assemble the reloadable motor, if used, in the presence of a certification team member.

This is on the NAR website. I thought as you, so I checked...
And for L2:
Step 9:
The modeler must demonstrate his ability to build and fly a rocket containing at least one J, K or L impulse class motor. Cluster or staged models used for certification may not contain over 5120.00 Newton seconds total impulse. In the case of a cluster or staged model, at least one of the individual motors must be an J, K or L impulse motor. Combinations of smaller impulse motors that add up to meet the impulse requirements do not qualify as the model does not contain at least one J, K or L impulse motor. Single use, reloadable, or hybrid technology motors are permitted. The modeler must assemble the reloadable motor, if used, in the presence of a certification team member.

However in the NAR L3 stuff,
Step 2.2: Multiple stage and clustered rockets are specifically disallowed for certification flights.

georgegassaway said:

If I go for L2, it'll probably be an R/C Rocket Glider. Maybe an 8X to 10X Astron Space Plane.

My L1 cert was with a boilerplate Little Joe-II, 7" diameter, 4 feet tall. Cluster of a G25 plus six C6's (pic below). That was 1991, when the cert process for L1 was to fly a G powered rocket. Have not flown any motor bigger than a G since then, but many HPR flights.....due to combined propellant mass of clustered or staged models. Had the scale 7" Little Joe-II not crashed on its third flight, I did plan to fly it on an H45 and six D12's.

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How were the 7 motors ignited? Flash pan or “hydra” clip whip

From the tripoli website.

Motor – The certification flight must be with a single certified H or I motor (tested total impulse between 160.01 and 640.00 n-sec). Staged and/or Clustered rockets may not be used for certification flights. The flyer shall be observed by the certifying member or their designated representative during the assembly (if a reload or hybrid) and preparation of the motor.

SDramstad said:

From the tripoli website.

Motor – The certification flight must be with a single certified H or I motor (tested total impulse between 160.01 and 640.00 n-sec). Staged and/or Clustered rockets may not be used for certification flights. The flyer shall be observed by the certifying member or their designated representative during the assembly (if a reload or hybrid) and preparation of the motor.

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Thank you for the clarification. As post 3 says this is for those certifying under NAR rules.

I just got done answering this very question for one of the students on a college rocketry team that I'm helping out. Student in question wants to do a 2-stager for Level 2 cert.

As noted above, it is technically legal under NAR guidelines only -- not TRA, and not for L3 under either set of rules.

My answer to the student was that you are allowed, but it's a <really> bad idea. After all, you have to fly a L2-class motor in at least one of the stages, so if you really want to fly a 2-stager, why not make your cert flight a test flight for that stage? KISS for the cert and then you can get fancy.

Here's my question: why in the world is this even permissible under NAR certification rules? Can anyone explain to me why this would ever be a good idea for a cert?

Bill Hanson said:

Can anyone explain to me why this would ever be a good idea for a cert?

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You're more likely to fail, so it's not a good idea for that reason, but why make it illegal? (Assuming the rocket is acceptable to the RSO, of course.)

I did my L2 with a simple motor eject flight, but lots of people do it with a dual deploy flight. Should we make dual deploy cert flights illegal just because there are more ways to fail?

Bill Hanson said:

KISS for the cert and then you can get fancy.

Here's my question: why in the world is this even permissible under NAR certification rules? Can anyone explain to me why this would ever be a good idea for a cert?

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Does it really make a difference if whatever happens happens on your L2 cert flight vs your next flight as a L2?

mikec said:

I did my L2 with a simple motor eject flight, but lots of people do it with a dual deploy flight.

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I thought it was bad form to eject the motor, even more so in high power rocketry.