Another Lathe ? Thread

I'm in Lake Placid, NY (the middle of the frozen north) looking for a lathe primarily to turn nozzles, but to also turn the occasional case. I have never used a lathe before, so I need some guidance getting started.
Even though other threads recommend, "Go big or going home!" so to speak, my 20' x 20' shop is already fairly full with cabinets and shelves, compressor, welder, drill press, belt sander, metal and wood band saws, chop saw, mixers, rockets and lots of crap, so smaller is better. What so you think about these lathes? They are relatively close geographically and in (or close to) my price range -$400. (Yes, I know that is ridiculously little, $1,500 to $2,500 is not happening.) Not a big factor, but South Glens Falls is 2 hours south, North Hero is two hours NE, and Central Square is roughly 3 hours west. So, a road trip to check them out before making a decision would not be convenient. I am fairly sure they would all do nozzles, but I know the North Hero South Bend and Atlas are smaller than I would like as I could only make short cases. I have no idea how long the bed is on the South Glens Falls South Bend lathe, but it appears to be about the same 18" between centers as the others.

https://glensfalls.craigslist.org/tls/d/south-glens-falls-south-bend-lathe/6937915499.html

And
https://syracuse.craigslist.org/tls/d/central-square-atlas-mk2-metal-lathe/6929199597.html

There is also this which is not together. I am reasonably handy - putting together bobsleds that did not disintegrate on the track. Do you think I could get it together? I don't know if he has pictures of it before it was taken apart or a manual for it. No joy from a brief internet search.
https://vermont.craigslist.org/tls/d/north-hero-south-bend-lathe/6933650712.html

Thanks for your help,

Matt Roy, OLY

The Atlas in Central Square is your best option. It has a tool post and lots of accessories which get expensive bought separately. It looks newer and in better shape, more complete and ready to go.

The 4-jaw chuck is more versatile but takes more time to center the piece. You may want to grab a compatible 3-jaw chuck off eBay.

It takes some practice and reading tips online to get a feel for turning stuff. There are some threads here to search for, and lots of general instructional videos online.

I'm visiting relatives about 30 miles west of central square right now. Going back to New Mexico soon. PM me after talking to the seller. I might have time to look at it for you.

I'll differ with John...

The Glens Falls South Bend looks rough, but it also has a 3' bed, and it appears to have a larger swing than the others. SB is best known among hobbyists for their 9" and 10" units, and this looks like a 9". The collet closer is a big plus...if you don't use it you could recoup part of the cost by selling it and the collets on eBay. Also the quick-change gearbox is nice to change speeds and makes it easier to cut different threads.

In any case, check the ways near the headstock for wear. If the original grinding pattern is visible, that's great! If you can catch a fingernail on the edge of the wear, not so great.

Best -- Terry

prfesser said:

I'll differ with John...

The Glens Falls South Bend looks rough, but it also has a 3' bed, and it appears to have a larger swing than the others. SB is best known among hobbyists for their 9" and 10" units, and this looks like a 9". The collet closer is a big plus...if you don't use it you could recoup part of the cost by selling it and the collets on eBay. Also the quick-change gearbox is nice to change speeds and makes it easier to cut different threads.

In any case, check the ways near the headstock for wear. If the original grinding pattern is visible, that's great! If you can catch a fingernail on the edge of the wear, not so great.

Best -- Terry

Click to expand...

Relatively speaking, that Southbend is a steal. Unless it's totally worn out (and even if it is, you can source all parts) you'd best grab it asap. I'm actually tempted to drive out there and get it myself, Ya just don't see realistically priced Southbends these days. I see 'em "advertised" for around 2K all the time.

One quick thing, from someone without experience at this stuff. Are you planning to turn graphite nozzles? Graphite is somewhat conductive electrically, and I've been told that graphite dist generated while turning can destroy a lathe's motor. Am I wrong? If I'm not, you'll want to find out what people do about that and be sure you're set up for it. (And one day in the not-too-distant future I'll be doing the same myself.)

If the only thing you ever plan to do with a lathe is turn nozzles then maybe those collets are not important and you can sell them. But unless you're really sure, keep'm.

Another friend put in a plug for the Glens Falls South Bend, so I think I'll give him a call.
Oh yea, I forgot to ask, what's a way? I know Cosby has his issues, but I'm reminded of his skit, "Noah I want you to build an Arc..."

Yes,graphite is an absolute mess maker. Best bet is to do any graphite turning outdoors if possible (a cart with casters will be your friend). Second best is a good vacuum system and a motor shroud. And I guarantee you'll have people donating tooling once they discover you own a lathe. I'd say about 1/2 of what I have has been given to me by people that have random "stuff" that they have no use for, yet can't bring themselves to throw out.

prfesser said:

I'll differ with John...

In any case, check the ways near the headstock for wear. If the original grinding pattern is visible, that's great! If you can catch a fingernail on the edge of the wear, not so great.

Best -- Terry

Click to expand...

So, with my limited knowledge/vocabulary, I'm guessing the ways is the bed that the steady rest(?) travels on. But, then again, I thought that was the bed. I'm further guessing that the headstock is to the far left (when working on a job) that holds the 3 or 4 jaw chuck. Finally, where is the wear that I would catch my fingernail on?
I'm off to call.

The headstock is, indeed, the "stuff" at the left where the spinning power comes from. Spindle, change gears, usually a chuck but you might be using collets. Some or all of this is the headstock.

The "ways", one might very reasonably call the bed. The two parallel platforms, what you might call the halves of the bed, are the ways. They need to be supremely flat, even, and parallel. If you can feel a scratch in either of them it's an issue. Most work gets done rather near the head, so that is both where wear is most likely and most important.

What you guessed is a steady rest, if I'm guessing your guess right, is the "carriage". Which usually holds and carries the tool holder, but can carry other things, such as a milling head or a wood lathe style tool rest. The carriage rides - in? or? - the ways.

There should also be a tail stock, and it too rides on the ways. That can hold a variety of handy things, most often a center, less often a drill, and once in a while something else.

A steady rest is something you're not likely to need often, and never when turning nozzles. It holds long work pieces in the middle (or near the tail end if you can't use the tail stock for some reason). It also rides on the ways.

And of course, one can dig down much deeper into the names for pieces of parts and parts of pieces.

There is a lot of good material about this on YouTube. Unfortunately, as with anything else, there's also a lot of junk. I'm not an expert, so my recommendations go best with a grain of salt; I like these guys:

• Abom79
• Mr. Pete
• This Old Tony
• Kieth Fenner

Well said: The ways, being an integral, I.e. non-removable part of the machine makes them an important part to check for wear. They can be "fixed" if they're worn but it's not an easy task. Since everything else pretty much bolts on it's not as important that they be perfect since you can replace them. Make sense? Of course this is all relative since the parts we normally make for hobbies do no need absolutely tight tolerances. If you can hold .001" your probably fine.

I left a message. Hopefully it's still available! (Maybe Fred got there before me.)

"What you guessed is a steady rest, if I'm guessing your guess right, is the "carriage". Which usually holds and carries the tool holder, but can carry other things, such as a milling head or a wood lathe style tool rest. The carriage rides - in? or? - the ways."
I was confusing a "steady rest" with the "tail stock".

It's all terminology in the end. With nothing more than a 3 jaw, toolholder, indicator and some basic tooling you'll be able to accomplish most things. It's more about being creative with what you have than buying gimmickery..

"This posting has been deleted by its author."
You snooze, you lose!
Next up. The Atlas?
This is twice as far away, and i don't know make or model, but it is bigger. I doubt it is 42" between centers:
https://nh.craigslist.org/tls/d/hudson-metal-lathe/6937351461.html

As Joe alluded to, the ways are the shiny flat or prism-shaped surfaces that the carriage rides on. The bed is the entire iron casting, the ways are part of the bed.

Look at the tailstock end of the ways (or on the far end of the headstock end, which the carriage doesn't touch even if it's moved to the far left); usually the original grinding pattern is visible there. It's not uncommon for the pattern to be missing from the headstock end where the carriage rides, it's not a deal-breaker. If the wear is excessive you'll see a ridge at the bottom of one (or more) of the ways. If you can catch a fingernail on the ridge, the wear is excessive. Instead of turning straight, you'll be turning tapered work.

The carriage is the whole assembly that has the crank with which the carriage can be moved in either direction. On the carriage is the cross slide; its ways are at right angles to the bed ways. On top of the cross slide is the compound slide; it can be swiveled and locked into place to cut at an angle.

The distance between centers is the longest job that can be held in the lathe. A 42" bed is probably about 24-30" between centers. Depends on the maker. The swing is the largest diameter that can be turned. On a lathe with 10" swing, the distance between the headstock center and the ways is slightly over 5".

The nh Hudson lathe you refer to probably has a 42" bed. If so, I seriously doubt that it has a 6" swing, more like a 9" or even 10".

Nobody has commented on this: https://vermont.craigslist.org/tls/d/north-hero-south-bend-lathe/6933650712.html
Is it a definite NO!

NorthwoodsRockets said:

Nobody has commented on this: https://vermont.craigslist.org/tls/d/north-hero-south-bend-lathe/6933650712.html
Is it a definite NO!

Click to expand...

I'll take a stab at it. That is a beautiful piece of art. Having worked with one my former boss owned I have an affinity for it. Might not be the most practical lathe you could own, but it is super cool.

Btw, every machine you will ever own will be to small for what you are currently attempting

Wallace said:

Btw, every machine you will ever own will be to small for what you are currently attempting

Click to expand...

So true. I have a South Bend Light 10" with what they call a 48" bed. It will actually do about 30" between centers.
My former employer had a lathe that would swing about 98" and sometimes we needed more.
Biggest parts we ever turned were about 8' diameter. We regularly did 3 7/16" pump shafts 288" long.
Don't really miss doing that kind of work. That stuff is HEAVY.

Consider buying a new lathe, even if it is one of the cheaper Chinese ones. I have purchased both second-hand and then splurged on a new larger one. Unless you can find one with little wear on everything (the bed wears around where most of the work is done, up near the chuck) you might be better off with a new one.

There is a guy I work with who spent some reasonable $ on a Hardinge lathe and then did it up. In the end it cost me less for a larger lathe brand new, with DROs and quick-change toolpost. I didn't see his value personally, especially considering the amount of time he is spending doing it up.

I consider a quick-change toolpost one of the best ideas since sliced bread. Amazing convenience.

If you can spring the $ for a DRO you will never regret it.

I have battled with a second-hand lathe for years and never regretted getting the new Chinese one. YMMV.

All great descriptions and tips! Lots of collective experience here.

With no experience with a lathe, you should get something simple that is ready to use. I thought the Atlas was closest to that. A new Chinese lathe could fit the bill as well. You could always sell it and trade up once you have some experience. Or when you feel like you can justify making larger components.

Up there in the great white north of ny state, you won't have local help to repair and re-align a good old south bend. Some are rock solid and some are junk. It's risky in your situation, IMO.

I have a used Birmingham gear head lathe, made in China. Paid about $1400 about 12 years ago. My memory is a little fuzzy. ;-).
I've been able to make parts for up to 8" motors.

Thank you everyone for your feedback.
John, I sent you a PM.

NorthwoodsRockets said:

Nobody has commented on this: https://vermont.craigslist.org/tls/d/north-hero-south-bend-lathe/6933650712.html
Is it a definite NO!

Click to expand...

People who don't have lathes are sometimes driven to do small turnings by holding a drill in a vice and hand holding their tools. I don't know the machine pictured above, but I have no doubt that it's better than that. If it's all that's available within your budget, if you think you'll be comfortable using it, then buy it. Let others with more knowledge than I advise you if it should be at the bottom of your list, but no working lathe in acceptable condition is a "definite NO".

Has anyone mentioned how many cases and nozzles one can buy with the money spent on a lathe and tooling? (Buying a lathe is a little like buying a telescope. You thought the scope was expensive until you started buying eyepieces and filters for it. And that lathe is an expensive piece of equipment, until you start buying tooling for it. Bring your wallet.)

If you want to become a lathe operator, you'll really want to get signed up for some classes at your local JC before jumping into lathe ownership. You'll learn a ton before dropping your coin, then when you do, you'll be much happier. (Perhaps become good friends with the instructor, gaining full access to his shop, and turn your cases and nozzles there. No muss, no fuss, no major financial investment.)

Bed length will be critical when trying to turn cases that are larger in OD than your spindle bore ID. When cutting either threads or snap-ring grooves in the end of a pipe, you'll chuck one end, support the other end in the steady, then you'll need enough clearance for the carriage and tools to reach inside the workpiece. Long case... Long bed. Bigger spindle bore... MUCH bigger lathe.

If all you need is a couple of cases and a handful of nozzles... Click, click, ding-dong, FedEx.

Personally I do a lot on my lathe and it gets used for far more than rocketry. It is very useful for reconditioning electric motors from washing machines and power tools, and many parts have been made and repaired for all sorts of projects around the house and car. I even built a hydraulic drive winch for my 4x4.

The mill is not quite so handy I find, hence having a lathe about 30 years before I finally splurged on a mill.

I was lucky enough to have my Dad teach me to turn and machine from about the age of 12.

cherokeej said:

If you want to become a lathe operator, you'll really want get signed up for some classes at your local JC before jumping into lathe ownership. You'll learn a ton before dropping your coin, and when you do, you'll be much happier. (Perhaps become good friends with the instructor, gaining full access to his shop, and turn your cases and nozzles there. No muss, no fuss, no major financial investment.)

Click to expand...

That's a good idea if you have not done much machining before. You will quickly see what you want to spend money on and what you don't need.

If you purchase an old beat up machine and make friends with a local machinist in your area you'll stand to learn more about machining from rebuilding your new to you lathe then you would ever need for hobby rocketry.

cherokeej said:

Has anyone mentioned how many cases and nozzles one can buy with the money spent on a lathe and tooling?

Click to expand...

I have to assume that Matt has his reasons. Unique nozzle sizes? Unique nozzle profiles? An itch to turn nozzles? Doesn't matter; he's made his decision to buy a lathe and turn them and asked for advice picking one.

If you want to become a lathe operator, you'll really want to get signed up for some classes at your local JC before jumping into lathe ownership.

Click to expand...

That, on the other hand, is a very good point. Matt, a little instruction and toe wetting experience will give you a much better idea of what you want to look for than will reading a bunch of forum replies

Bed length will be critical when trying to turn cases that are larger in OD than your spindle bore ID. When cutting either threads or snap-ring grooves in the end of a pipe, you'll chuck one end, support the other end in the steady, then you'll need enough clearance for the carriage and tools to reach inside the workpiece. Long case... Long bed. Bigger spindle bore... MUCH bigger lathe.

Click to expand...

Or to put that another way, with a small lathe "the occasional case" you mentioned will be limited to quite small ones. If you're not in a position either to buy or to house a large lathe then you should check your expectations about cases.

NorthwoodsRockets said:

Nobody has commented on this: https://vermont.craigslist.org/tls/d/north-hero-south-bend-lathe/6933650712.html
Is it a definite NO!

Click to expand...

The drawback to this one is that it does not have a quick change gearbox. I see there is a bag of gears, that would be used for setting up your feed rates. I also don't think the power feed would work for the compound (X axis). Just the Z axis (the long way).

If I had a south Bend, this would likely be a donor for any spare parts I can grab, and even the tooling, then I'd just offer the rest up to pickers.

I have a Sheldon 10x24. I've spent some time learning the quirks of it. You will definitely want to find an Atlas manual and work your way through this... It is not a turnkey operation like most standalone lathes are.

Consider taking some machining classes at your local college before buying something... This way you can understand what the capabilities you are looking for are. I could have turned the 6" nozzle for our Marvin project, knowing the capabilities of our lathe. sure, it'd be tight, I'd have to do some re-setting of tooling here and there due to the features... But I used a friend's lathe and let that one take the abuse (phenolic and graphite messes are not fun).

OverTheTop said:

Personally I do a lot on my lathe and it gets used for far more than rocketry. It is very useful for reconditioning electric motors from washing machines and power tools, and many parts have been made and repaired for all sorts of projects around the house and car. I even built a hydraulic drive winch for my 4x4.

The mill is not quite so handy I find, hence having a lathe about 30 years before I finally splurged on a mill.

I was lucky enough to have my Dad teach me to turn and machine from about the age of 12.

Click to expand...

I concur 100 percent, my lathe has easily paid for itself ten times over just making and or repairing things you can not buy. What was mentioned above seemed to more describe a "nozzle only making machine" and that would probably not be practical unless you were considering production. A more general way to put it is: A machine or tool is only as valuable as your imagination allows.

Hi folks,

Last summer, John D. offered to help me look at a lathe and later he introduced me to a friend Al as a lathe mentor. Al lives an hour or so north and is now the closest high-power/EX rocketeer that I know of.

Al suggested I pick up an FE Reed lathe circa 1900 from a couple hours south for $200. The pick up was quite an adventure and is a long story by itself.

This thing is all there! I work at a boarding school with one of the top ranked hockey teams in the US. So, when the lathe got unloaded from the trailer by a tractor, but the tractor couldn't get the lathe into my shop, I got seven of the school’s larger players and several girl players to help me move it. I had four big boys on a two-inch pipe under the heavy end, four other people on two one-inch pipes, and a few extras scattered around the lathe. It was all we could do to wrestle it up a slight incline into my shop. However, it moved fairly easily on the flat floor.

I spent a while scrubbing it down with WD-40, oiling it, and rewiring it. I made a belt for the power feed and Al and I (mostly Al) made a steady rest for it. I bought a quick-change tool rest, a dead rest, Jacobs chuck, and a bull nose for the tail stock, and two machinist’s dial indicators with magnetic bases.

I didn’t do much useful with it for a couple/several months. I mostly messed around turning perfectly good aluminum and steel into chips while I worked on a test stand and Al and I cast some 2” grains just before The Great Change. Thinking back on it, I am kind of amazed at what I’ve gotten done while teaching myself how to create video lessons (somewhat akin to Khan Academy) to teach remotely. Mostly over the Covid months, I opened up Larry “The Weasel’s” “Roll Your Own” paper to find, out what kind of jar I need for a 98-mm casting tube mandrel. After WAY too long, it occurred to me that I didn’t need to go looking for pickle bottles, so I turned a cherry log down. That was a little scary and a lot messy! I went a little unorthodox and used my Lancelot to get the initial straightish roundish shape. Along the way, Al coached me while I adjusted the tail stock to take the taper out of the mandrel.


I put together a graphite vacuum scrubber (bong.) Everything but a couple 1.5" Schd 40 threaded couplers(?) was lying around. It worked better than I could have hoped except for the deafening whistle from the nozzle.

I tried my hand at forming a tool to cut 29-mm nozzle o-ring grooves with one plunge cut. And also spent some time grinding 120-degree angle into a broken spade bit.

Ultimately, I was very happy with my work copying Dan Patell’s 29-mm nozzle.

I got tired of holding the vacuum nozzle while turning the motor nozzle, so I bolted a communication board mount from one of my son’s old wheelchairs to the lathe to hold the vacuum nozzle.

Finally, I hope to start turning 38-mm nozzles for characterizing some propellant. Tell me what’s wrong with #14 through 19 nozzles for a Kn of 161 to 298 for two grains at 2.25” long X 1.25” OD X 0.5 cores. Just seems like lots of nozzles.

I think this lathe was a significant help in keeping (what's left of) my sanity while teaching online for the last eight weeks!
Thanks for the adventure!
Matt