I have read that. It is a good article.
As far as lifetime certifications, the board continues to discuss it. I’m torn on the matter.
As far as lifetime certifications, the board continues to discuss it. I’m torn on the matter.
L3 Certification - NAR vs. TRIPOLI . . . What's Required for Each ?
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Steve,
Look at it this way . . .
Someone joins Tripoli, gets certified Level 1, 2, or 3.
They decide to leave Rocketry for a while BUT, since they know they will lose their certs, when their Tripoli membership membership lapses for more than a year, they join NAR and transfer their cert levels over, since they will then be "lifetime".
Then, they quit both organizations.
Years later, they come back, rejoin NAR and then rejoin Tripoli, afterwards.
They transfer their NAR levels back over to Tripoli and, "Presto" . . . It's like they never left Tripoli, at all !
So, in essence, the Cert levels are already "lifetime", Steve !
Plus, if Tripoli doesn't make their cert levels "lifetime", people will just join the NAR and then fly with NAR or both organizations, including EX / Research, if they are at least Level 2.
Dave F.
That’s exactly why I call it NAR certification insurance…
Steve,
Here's an idea for you . . . A chance to "up the ante" !
Tripoli could create an EX/Research Certification ( with a written Test on Math, Terms, Techniques, Chemistry, etc. ) , separate from the traditional 3 levels, and require it to participate in EX/Research.
NAR could not compete with that, unless they also were to "embrace" a program of "DIY Motors", within the NAR !
Dave F.
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I think we already have that advantage. Only Tripoli members L2 or above can do research now. NAR members who are not also Tripoli members cannot.
boatgeek
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Or another scenario, perhaps just as plausible:
A person gets their L3 from Tripoli on a baby M, then discovers that what really floats their boat is LPR oddrocs. They stay members of Tripoli because that's their favorite local club, but they only fly spools and pyramids on A-D BP motors for 5 years. Then they get the HPR bug again and decide to build a MD O. They've been members since forever, their certs are still good, etc.
In a truly logical world, you'd probably have some kind of flying experience to keep your L3 cert, sort of like continuing education. But that would be an unholy mess to administer and track, not to mention set the rules. Does a 98% L MD count just as much as a 5% M Big Dumb Rocket, for example? I'm not advocating stepping down that long, slippery slope until there's a clear pattern of safety issues that need to be addressed. Absent that, what we have seems to be working pretty well.
That’s exactly correct. We have members now who haven’t launched for years. So there’s really no correlation between membership and expertise. As you said, administratively any program to track activity would be an unholy terror.
Flyfalcons
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There's really no difference in certing between the two organizations because your advisor can impose any restriction he or she feels, or deny an attempt outright. All subjective with no standardization.
BDB
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Just double-checking....clusters are not allowed for either NAR or TRA, right?
(I'm asking because my daughter wants me to upscale her scratch-built 5-motor cluster rocket for my L3 flight. I suspect I will have to launch it with only a central motor for the cert flight, and then the second flight will be clustered.)
(I'm asking because my daughter wants me to upscale her scratch-built 5-motor cluster rocket for my L3 flight. I suspect I will have to launch it with only a central motor for the cert flight, and then the second flight will be clustered.)
Rail Dawg
Always learning!!!
It might be time for a Class 3 (P motors and above) certification.
Class 3 flights used to be relatively rare but they are becoming more common... which is a good thing.
We all enjoy stepping up to the next higher level. It indicates our expertise and experience.
Class 3 rockets enter an area of FAA/AST (Office of Commercial Space Transportation) oversight not seen with Class 2 rockets.
The flight requirements and approvals are more stringent. This is why there’s so much respect for the Tripoli C3RC (Class 3 Review Committee). They have an important role in ensuring the Class 3 rocket follows the various governmental regulations.
The Class 3 application is detailed and is done by the flyer. There’s a learning curve and again it’s the good work of the C3RC that enables Tripoli members to enter this new arena.
I’m usually happy with less regulation. But as Tripoli moves into regularly flying rockets soon approaching S motors perhaps it’s time to consider a new level of certification.
Chuck C.
Class 3 flights used to be relatively rare but they are becoming more common... which is a good thing.
We all enjoy stepping up to the next higher level. It indicates our expertise and experience.
Class 3 rockets enter an area of FAA/AST (Office of Commercial Space Transportation) oversight not seen with Class 2 rockets.
The flight requirements and approvals are more stringent. This is why there’s so much respect for the Tripoli C3RC (Class 3 Review Committee). They have an important role in ensuring the Class 3 rocket follows the various governmental regulations.
The Class 3 application is detailed and is done by the flyer. There’s a learning curve and again it’s the good work of the C3RC that enables Tripoli members to enter this new arena.
I’m usually happy with less regulation. But as Tripoli moves into regularly flying rockets soon approaching S motors perhaps it’s time to consider a new level of certification.
Chuck C.
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Steve,
Unless NAR develops an EX/Research program of their own, at some point.
Dave F.
I think you misspoke. If we did something like this it would be Level 4. The word Class is part of the FAA classification rules which we obey.
Maybe, but I wouldn’t hold my breath. But even if they did it’s not a threat to Tripoli. Our organizations are very friendly with each other.
Rail Dawg
Always learning!!!
I don’t think we need to do that, but I’m not absolutely certain. We’ve added a layer of oversight by having the board review Class 3 projects.
The problem we’ve had recently is a rapid increase in inexperienced L3 flyers. It used to be that certifying L3 was more difficult so we didn’t have rules that mandated experience. In essence there were enough roadblocks that only the most determined flyers bothered certifying L3. It’s one of those “good problems to have” where we have a lot of kit choices, premanufactured ebay sleds, lots more TAPs and L3CCs, DMS motors, etc.
Plus we have competitions that motivate students to get their certifications done in minimal time (which means minimal diversity of experience).
It’s exciting in many ways to see this increase in interest; we just have to work to make sure it happens safely. This isn’t a knock on students or competitions. Most of the competitions have been associated with either NAR or Tripoli and I’m not worried about them. We’ve been contacting the others to see how we can work together. I don’t think a single one has rebuffed us, but the details are sometimes difficult.
The problem we’ve had recently is a rapid increase in inexperienced L3 flyers. It used to be that certifying L3 was more difficult so we didn’t have rules that mandated experience. In essence there were enough roadblocks that only the most determined flyers bothered certifying L3. It’s one of those “good problems to have” where we have a lot of kit choices, premanufactured ebay sleds, lots more TAPs and L3CCs, DMS motors, etc.
Plus we have competitions that motivate students to get their certifications done in minimal time (which means minimal diversity of experience).
It’s exciting in many ways to see this increase in interest; we just have to work to make sure it happens safely. This isn’t a knock on students or competitions. Most of the competitions have been associated with either NAR or Tripoli and I’m not worried about them. We’ve been contacting the others to see how we can work together. I don’t think a single one has rebuffed us, but the details are sometimes difficult.
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We have this same thread every year.
I've seen 3 fliers in the past 3 years L1/L2 on the same day with a LOC Warlock or equavelent and then go L3CC/TAP shopping. This is an increasing, or at least steady, trend. 1 was turned down outright due to lack of experience(who went on to learn a lot with several other rockets, and is thankful for the experience) 2 proceeded for various reasons (primarily the ability to sell ice to Eskimos) and attempted L3 with the second HP rocket that they've ever built....1 shreaded right off the rail and the other power pranged in front of the RSO/LCO table.
Lots of parts of the system are vulnerable to mis-application, largely in part to the subjective nature of the requirements. Neither of the two failures that I saw should have made it past the RSO check, much less the certifying official checks back to the planning phase. Too many good resources of successful attempts for there to be many valid excuses.
I now stay home on days that L3 attempts are made unless I know the flier and cert team.
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Nytrunner
Pop lugs, not drugs
Though it hasn't always been smooth sailing, the relationship between the orgs is pretty good these days.
Ask anyone that takes a trip to H-ville for Student Launch
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RE: Class 3 Certification
I think this is harder to implement that conventional certifications. First and foremost, it's very much the exception when a Class 3 project isn't a group project. So, who gets the certification when it is? The workload is rarely divided equally - as an example, you may have someone whose sole involvement was to "just" make the motor. Someone else may only be available to help out at the pad. Even amongst those who help with the build, design and build work is rarely equal. What about recovery?
Then let's move on to the question of who's qualified to review Class 3 flights. What percentage of members have made one? What percentage have made more than one?
-Kevin
I think this is harder to implement that conventional certifications. First and foremost, it's very much the exception when a Class 3 project isn't a group project. So, who gets the certification when it is? The workload is rarely divided equally - as an example, you may have someone whose sole involvement was to "just" make the motor. Someone else may only be available to help out at the pad. Even amongst those who help with the build, design and build work is rarely equal. What about recovery?
Then let's move on to the question of who's qualified to review Class 3 flights. What percentage of members have made one? What percentage have made more than one?
-Kevin
[emoji106]
And for those of you who don’t know, Kevin is co-Chair of the C3RC.
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RE: Class 3 Certifications
To add one more thing to think about....a very important question I learned from a friend of mine for whom I have a great deal of respect: "What problem are you trying to solve?"
To add one more thing to think about....a very important question I learned from a friend of mine for whom I have a great deal of respect: "What problem are you trying to solve?"
Rail Dawg
Always learning!!!
amiliv
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Don't know if that was always the case, or just local peculiarity. But the only reason I'm thinking about being member of both has nothing to do with "cert insurance." There's like two HPR launch sites that are driving distance from me to be possible as single-day trip. One is NAR managed, the other is Tripoli managed. Both get their fair share of cancelled launches due to weather (either too dry, or too wet, and it goes from one to the other in like two weeks; that's California in a nutshell). Being member of both would simply let me launch a tiny bit more often.
Also, NAR allows for junior HPR cert (adults still have to supervise and handle motors and limited to H), which allows my teenage son to have a bit of taste of high power rocketry a bit sooner.
TimothyG
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I got membership in both originally for the “insurance”, but have instead treated it as an opportunity to get through certifications twice, as separate tracks. It’s given me a far greater comfort with L 1,2 flights and helped grow my understanding of the basics to the point that flying my L1 flight for Tripoli was done with zero stress or worries. Now I’m doing NAR L3 and I plan on eventually doing Tripoli L3 with an even more challenging project.
I want you to join both organizations, but I want you to do so with an accurate understanding of the rules.
Tripoli and NAR members are welcome at each other’s launches. Membership in both is not necessary in order to access more launches. NAR members (who don’t belong to Tripoli) may not fly Research Motors.
Both NAR and Tripoli have youth programs. The Tripoli one starts at 12 years of age and requires a written test. The NAR one starts at 14 and has no test. We don’t yet have reciprocity between those programs but we’re working on it. Both result in the youth becoming certified L1 upon turning 18.
That brings up an interesting question . . .
If a Flyer, who is a member of both NAR & TRIPOLI, participates in a launch and becomes directly involved in an accident, which insurance company should he file the report or claim with ?
Since he has two different insurance policies, with two different companies, will they try to "play games" and get the other company to pay off, so they don't have to ?
Dave F.
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