Music over the last 40 years

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BTW, does everyone remember their first foray into a new format? My first CD was Dire Strait's Brothers In Arms. It was a totally digital product (not analog to digital conversion) and it totally blew me away. I purchased Madonna's Like A Virgin for my then-wife and, again, what a clear sound! I think that was the motivation to move away from vinyl. That and convenience.

During a recent spring cleaning binge, I came across the receipt for my very first CD player, a Hitachi, purchased in 1985 for a whopping $188.79. Also on the bill were my first two CD's Pink Floyd, The Wall ($34.99) and Blue Oyster Cult, Some Enchanted Evening ($17.99). I still have both of them too.
I still do love my vinyl (and cassettes) though.
 
I still remember the satellite/network burp from the 90s that kept the cell phones and pagers from working. That's part of why I don't subscribe to any music services. I also go many places in the country on hunting trips where there is no 'signal', as well as work overseas and in ship hulls where the is NEVER any signal. If I were a subscriber, I would be $$$ out. I buy either physical copy, or a data ownership copy that I can save/move/use wherever I want.

First vinyl LP? Queen's Flash Gordon sound track.
First CD? Men At Work Business as Usual. I also owned on of the original Sony Discman portable CD players.
 
BTW, does everyone remember their first foray into a new format?
My first CD was Pink Floyd - A Momentary Lapse of Reason. That is such a great album and sounded GREAT in my room on the huge speakers and new CD player I'd just gotten for Xmas. Brothers in Arms was purchased shortly afterwards.
 
What are your thoughts on CD music only recording between 20 hz and 20,000 hz in order to save space on the disc, due to the human ear not being able to hear outside this range? I've heard people say part of the reason that vinyl sounds better is music outside that range that we can still feel even though we cannot hear them, and it gives the sound the impression of being fuller. I'm not sure if I believe that or not but it seems reasonable.

It's technically complex, but in essence there is a lot of mastering 'tricks' that were used to make up for the deficiencies of LP records. Just as an example, a powerful source bass note down near the lower limits of what an LP could physically produce would actually make the needle pop out of the groove. So mastering engineers would apply EQ & compression tricks to make the rest of the bass note sound fuller and more present to make up for diminishing the too-powerful parts of the note. (This is also why bass is always in the center of the stereo field, instead of stage left where most bass players play). This is why many LP aficionados insist bass is better on LP's, because in a sense it is, but only because it was artificially made so to make up for the deficiencies of the medium. They would also do the same mastering tricks at the higher end of the spectrum to make up for super high frequencies that the needle was simply incapable of producing or to reduce harmonic resonance of needles, etc..

In fact, music releases were independently mastered according to the medium on which it was going to be released; there would be an LP Master, a reel-to-reel Master, an 8-track Master, etc., all custom tailored to make up for the strengths & weaknesses of the medium on which it was going to be played. Also, in the days of LPs, stereo & speaker manufacturers would impart their own EQ & compression 'flavors' to sweeten the music. So with all of those techniques combined with the not-unpleasant, 'warm' sounding harmonic distortion created by tube gear, people really liked that sound.

One of the reasons that the CD vs. LP argument persists (in addition to the above issues) is because when CDs first came out a couple things occurred: CD were much more accurate and 'flat' in their response compared to LPs, but Mastering engineers did the same old mastering tricks they had to do with LPs to make them listenable without taking into consideration that CD were a different medium that required different mastering techniques, as a result the first CDs sounded - in comparison - awful, but they learned the new mastering techniques the medium required and they quickly improved. It also took the hardware manufacturers a while to develop electronics and speaker systems that took advantage of the capabilities of digital CDs, including superior bass and high frequency response and just improved over all dynamic range.


As for the hearing range, blind tests have shown that people cannot hear the difference between a square wave and a sine wave above 20k (maybe 22khz for people who have super hearing). Anything beyond this is more marketing than anything else. Below 20hz is really more into "feeling" than "hearing" as the frequency is so low.

This is true. Even more so for people who lose high-end range as they age. I'm pretty sure Led Zeppelin in the Kingdome in '76 ended my dog whistle days for ever ;)

But this is what's interesting about formats like DVD Audio and Super CDs: Yes, they produce sounds we cannot hear, however (and this is important) those sounds we cannot hear produce 1st, 2nd and 3rd order harmonics that we can hear that affect the music around them and add to the sense of realism and presence that our brains can detect but we cannot describe. The same goes for music we can hear producing the same harmonics above and below our hearing range. I have a DVD-A of Hotel California, an album we have all heard probably too many times, and I am amazed at the difference - you can hear nuances in, say, Don Henley's cymbal playing you could never hear even on the Red Book CD, and i am convinced it is, in part, due to the harmonics of sounds that I might not be able to hear but that do affect what I can hear.

Music labels and mass consumer-level labels and hardware producers love the argument that, if you can't hear it there's no sense in trying to reproduce it (because it costs them $$$ in profit margin to do so), and that has resulted in the de-emphasis of High Fidelity music hardware compared to the 60's & 70's when people saved their money to invest in really sweet gear, which is unfortunate, because the Hi-Fi formats and hardware do make a tremendous difference in the listening experience.

So, yes, formats and hardware that can produce sound below 20 Hz and above 20K Hz is worth it.
 
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I still remember the satellite/network burp from the 90s that kept the cell phones and pagers from working. That's part of why I don't subscribe to any music services. I also go many places in the country on hunting trips where there is no 'signal', as well as work overseas and in ship hulls where the is NEVER any signal. If I were a subscriber, I would be $$$ out. I buy either physical copy, or a data ownership copy that I can save/move/use wherever I want.

First vinyl LP? Queen's Flash Gordon sound track.
First CD? Men At Work Business as Usual. I also owned on of the original Sony Discman portable CD players.

Yup. I still buy CDs. Mostly because they are FAR better than lossy compression of MP3s and streamed music, but also because i will own them forever, I can legally make copies in any format I choose for personal use and am not dependent on some corporation or music streaming service for my music. If it all goes to hell someday, I can sit in my cave with a hand-cranked generator and still listen to my music :)
 
you can hear nuances in, say, Don Henley's cymbal playing you could never hear even on the Red Book CD, and i am convinced it is, in part, due to the harmonics of sounds that I might not be able to hear but that do affect what I can hear.

But is this directly attributable to being able to hear higher harmonics? Or related to that DVD-A might be 24bit whereas CD is only 16 and allows for more dynamic range? Or just that the audio was mastered "better" for the DVD release?

Sometimes I think the "sounds better" argument is less the format and more that the people making the release "try harder" to make something of better quality?
 
But is this directly attributable to being able to hear higher harmonics? Or related to that DVD-A might be 24bit whereas CD is only 16 and allows for more dynamic range? Or just that the audio was mastered "better" for the DVD release?

Sometimes I think the "sounds better" argument is less the format and more that the people making the release "try harder" to make something of better quality?

It's both. Not so much that we hear the higher harmonics, but because the harmonics propagate both up and down, we hear the harmonics of otherwise ultrasonic (or, at least, above our individual hearing threshold) sounds, and it is important to note that those harmonics affect the nature of the sound we can hear. Just as an example, the zing of a cymbal at 18kHz can be made fuller & richer by harmonics created by the cymbal at say, 22kHz. BUT if the hardware cannot reproduce those harmonics audibly they won't exist in the recording - it's a psycho-acoustic property of how our brains interpret sounds, not a quality of the recording hardware delivering them to us, if that makes sense. We must actually hear the (unhearable) 22kHz cymbal harmonics from the speaker system. We hear the harmonics separately and it is our brains that do the work combining them and creates the sense of increased realism.

Also, the increase in dynamic range is substantial in how we perceive sounds and the numbers are misleading: The difference in 16-bit vs. 24-bit is exponential. 24-bit is something like 500 times the dynamic range of a 16-bit recording (if I remember correctly).
 
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I always loved vyn,..I always loved vyn,..I always loved vyn,..I always loved vyn,..I always loved vyn,..I always loved vyn,..I always loved vyn,..I always loved vyn,..I always loved vyn,..I always loved vyn,..I always loved vyn,..
 
First time I heard that song that goes "I know, I know,I know,I know,I know,I know,I know,I know ..." I thought the record was skipping at the radio station.

 
Technically cassette tapes are 4 tracks, although only 2 are used at a time....
 
I think Muntz was the only one that made them...
My Dad was a radio newsman for many years. I remember the radio stations using 4 track tapes (referred to as 'carts' in the jargon of the trade) for commercials and recording remote feeds for playback. That is the only place that I ever saw them used.

Jim
 
Also on the bill were my first two CD's Pink Floyd, The Wall ($34.99) and Blue Oyster Cult, Some Enchanted Evening ($17.99). I still have both of them too.
Great taste! Excellent albums. I wore out a couple cassettes of The Wall and, for some reason, when you check Amazon music and other services, Some Enchanted Evening is often missing. I wonder if it is a licensing thing as most of their catalog is there.

First record album was 1967's Jungle Book Soundtrack. If you filled up you gas tank then Texaco stations would sell it to you for like $.99. My 6-year-old self worried my father to death until he bought it for me. The first album that I bought myself was Seal's and Croft's Greatest Hits.

no-artist-listed-bare-necessities-1967.jpg
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Do any of you older guys remember cereal box records? You just cut them off the back of your cereal box and played them.

list5_honey_comb_monkees_flexi.jpg


And even as late as the 70's:

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Who knew that consuming sugar could be so rewarding!
 
McDonald's Song came as a record in the newspaper. You were supposed to memorize it for some competition I guess?
 
I never parted with vinyl and when I had my first apartment in college, my dad gave me a box of records with the stipulation that I don't sell them and he can spin them when he visits. I like the ritual of placing a record on the platter and listening to each side as a piece of work without skipping tracks. Vinyl forces you to slow down a little and appreciate the album as the work rather than a collection of singles. Of course, this assumes the album is worth listening to in the first place.

I also like digital and streaming music. I have a mini thumb drive with records stored in a reasonable quality in my car and can stream Spotify for anything else I want to hear. I love it, especially on the days I have an 80 mile commute to our satellite base.

I was listening to some albums from high school in the mid 90s which were independently produced and released by the bands. Some of these were recorded on 4 track tape recorders in basements or pulled off analogue mixing boards in community centers with little if any mastering. Now, with just a laptop, mixing board, and a few microphones kids and young bands can record with open source DAWs for cheap and produce albums that still sound good.
 

That was actually my first record too!
I was only 6 or 7 at the time, but my parents bought it for me. I played and played and played that vinyl for years. An absolutely major part of my growing up. (and yes, I still "have" and listen to it...only now my copy is a digital audio file).

Other records I got when I was a kid (most of which my dad got me), and that I absolutely loved were Roger Miller, Johnny Cash, Ray Charles, Herb Alpert, JC Superstar, Paul Revere and the Raiders, the Dave Clark Five, the Fifth Dimension, and Three Dog Night. Then as I got older (and had two older brothers) I discovered harder rock and started listening to Deep Purple, Grand Funk Railroad, and Led Zeppelin. My "first" album that I actually bought for myself was Aerosmith's Get Your Wings.

s6
 
I just flashed back to Dickie Goodman's Mr. Jaws record. A friend left a copy of that at my house one afternoon, and never retrieved it. I probably still have it in the box of 45s up in the attic.

Do any of you older guys remember cereal box records? You just cut them off the back of your cereal box and played them.

Yes. I do remember those.

Also the flexible discs that were bound into magazines, and the Power Records comic book + 45 packages (I know I had the WWBN Curse of the Werewolf -- I don't remember if I had any of the others, or if they were even ever produced) and the Mattel Talking Football records, and cassingles and the crappy pressings that you got when your took advantage of the 10 records-for-a-penny (plus a bonus if you put the secret stamp in the box on your order form) from Columbia House record club (I picked James Taylor's greatest hits to round out my 10. My suicidally depressed freshman-year roommate played "Sweet Baby James" so many times that the needle couldn't climb out of the groove. Almost like when a record skips on a scratch, but it could happen anywhere in the song: "...eer-et me go down in my dree...eer-et me go down in my dree...eer-et me go down in my dree...).

And do you remember the Bag Of Laughs toy? I cracked mine open the day I got it. There was a little phonograph record inside. I took the spindle out of my father's turntable and taped it to the platter -- not quite centered IIRC. Playing it this way, the sound it made was not laughter. The sound my father made was not laughter either.

For a year or two it seemed every other act at NxNW was giving away EPs or singles in some weird format; thumb drives, those squared-off business card CDs, vinyl picture disks, transparent vinyl discs, etc. Most of it is unlistenable, even if it is playable.
 
I still have several "book and record" sets, and I have let my kids listen to them. Star Trek, Planet of the Apes, Spider-man, Superman, Batman.
 
Other records I got when I was a kid (most of which my dad got me), and that I absolutely loved were Roger Miller, Johnny Cash, Ray Charles, Herb Alpert, JC Superstar, Paul Revere and the Raiders, the Dave Clark Five, the Fifth Dimension, and Three Dog Night. Then as I got older (and had two older brothers) I discovered harder rock and started listening to Deep Purple, Grand Funk Railroad, and Led Zeppelin. My "first" album that I actually bought for myself was Aerosmith's Get Your Wings.
We are mirror images of each other! My father never had the TV on. Instead, it was always music, usually by an "ER" band. You know, the DriftERs, PlattERs, CoastERs, etc. As I got older, my musical tastes both progressed and regressed. At 30, I was listening to both the Scorpions and to Glenn Miller's Summer of '42. At 50, I was listening to bands like The Alabama Shakes, Woody Pines, Pine Hill Haints as well as old blue grass and gospel. I can accept most any music, as long as it is real and not some auto-tune crap. But sometimes, even auto-tuning has it's place (see below.) Just don't call the people using it an artist.

The one place that auto-tune should be allowed:

 
Kept my vinyl from the 60s-80s, including a bunch of old Deutche Grammophon classical stuff. Broke down and sold them all plus turntable before my last move (2010) -- just in time for vinyl to become trendy again.

Mid-90s, my teenaged daughter started raving about this new music she had discovered -- Jimi Hendrix and Pink Floyd. LOL

“Siri, play Grateful Dead.”

Dang, haven't listened to the Dead in years (been on a Ray Wylie Hubbard kick lately). Will have to see if Alexa (or as we refer to her, "She whose name will not be spoken") knows any.
 
Kept my vinyl from the 60s-80s, including a bunch of old Deutche Grammophon classical stuff. Broke down and sold them all plus turntable before my last move (2010) -- just in time for vinyl to become trendy again.

Mid-90s, my teenaged daughter started raving about this new music she had discovered -- Jimi Hendrix and Pink Floyd. LOL



Dang, haven't listened to the Dead in years (been on a Ray Wylie Hubbard kick lately). Will have to see if Alexa (or as we refer to her, "She whose name will not be spoken") knows any.
I like me some Ray Wylie Hubbard, too.

“We’re from Texas, screw you.”
 

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