Budget for 60000' flight

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dwightr

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I don't see much talk about the cost of some of the big high altitude projects that some people are doing.
Anybody have any ballpark numbers on what a rocket that will do 60000' might cost.
I have never done anything near this but I have a project in mind for several years down the road.
Is it closer to $2000 or $20000
 
I think it will be hard to do any level 3 project for under $2k. The motor alone for a high altitude attempt is going to probably cost that much.

What do you have in mind?
 
If you borrow motor cases and just pay for commercial propellant you can easily do 60K for under $2k. But you will spend much more than that getting the experience and know-how for that flight.
 
I think it will be hard to do any level 3 project for under $2k. The motor alone for a high altitude attempt is going to probably cost that much.

What do you have in mind?

My L3 project is under 1K including the motor. However, 60K is a completely different ballpark. I suppose that you could do a minimum diameter and reach that high but it would take a lot of experience in order to do it successfully and safely.
 
I could probably figure this out in OpenRocket, but what is the rough order of magnitude for a rocket/motor combo to support a 60K flight? In round terms, are we talking a 4" min diameter with an N or 6" with an O?
 
I could probably figure this out in OpenRocket, but what is the rough order of magnitude for a rocket/motor combo to support a 60K flight? In round terms, are we talking a 4" min diameter with an N or 6" with an O?

A 3" M-M 2-stage at BlackRock easily breaks 60K.
 
IMHO, mostly from making EX motors up to O, and lots of sims, the price is closer to 2K if you do the work yourself. It shouldn't take all that much of a rocket to get to just that altitude from a place like Black rock. However, it needs to be the RIGHT rocket!

Getting the experience to get there is probably at least 10K and a few years. I could be underestimating that part!

One can theoretically make a 75mm motor on totally custom hardware that could get there, if the rest of the rocket can take a high mach flight at fairly low altitude. It does get a little easier as you go a little larger, say, 88mm. Burn duration is your friend. I wouldn't go larger than 114mm for that altitude. So that would be your potential motor diameter range. I'm assuming EX motor here with high Density ISP propellant. I'm not aware of commercial motors that really fit the flight profile. N5800 for instance would be better if it didn't hit as hard, and had a few more grains.

Of course you COULD go larger than 114mm, but then instead of a modest motor in the O range you'll need a P. Your price and logistics will go up tremendously. So will the necessary size of your team.

It's not really all that hard to design a motor that could potentially boost a rocket to double your goal or more. The problem is getting it to survive Mach 4. So the engineering that you might want to think about is how to get it to your goal plus at least a 10% margin (wind cocking allowance) as slowly as you can. Then it is more likely to survive.

An even more modest two stage can solve the stagnation temperature and aero load problems, at the cost of complexity yielding additional failure modes. How much rocket do you need to light at 20Kft to get to 60Kft on a somewhat tilted flight due to a 40 knot wind at altitude? Not much. Then figure out how to get that small rocket to 20Kft while fairly vertical and successfully light it. (just an example) A two stage alleviates the need for a tower so you can use a conventional rail with less overall drag penalty. The parts are much smaller to transport, helping the logistics.

But until you can get to the point where you can engineer a few solutions, it is hard to do the price vs probability of success tradeoff. Just figure out the sorts of things you'll need to be good at, and start learning them!

Gerald
 
That is a lofty single stage goal. I have seen video of a few MD attempts with the CTI N5800 and CTI O 3400 that did not go higher then 60k.

https://www.csrocketry.com/rocket-motors/cesaroni/motors/pro-98/6gxl-reloads.html

* 98mm motor: $1300-1500
* 98mm 6xl case, hardware, boat tail: $850
* 98mm MD rocket, mongoose or Black hawk: $460-900
* HED with a small drouge and a cable cutter, dual altimeter with 2 sets of charges, battery's, switches, One bad hawk harness, fruity chute or some other large main, GPS or multi purpose electronics egg finder or telamega: $750-$1000+ easy
* Travel for the launch site with a 60k+ waiver and a tower to launch from.
* $3500-3800 or more.

~John
 
I’ve been toying with the idea of a project with a target launch date of 30 April, 2025
58220’ target altitude with a micro printed wrap with 58220 names onboard
I’m L1 right now, working on L2 this fall
Maybe L3 in 2020-21
That leaves a few years to gain experience, develop a plan, build a team and then design and build a rocket
 
I’ve been toying with the idea of a project with a target launch date of 30 April, 2025
58220’ target altitude with a micro printed wrap with 58220 names onboard
I’m L1 right now, working on L2 this fall
Maybe L3 in 2020-21
That leaves a few years to gain experience, develop a plan, build a team and then design and build a rocket


Names from Vietnam Memorial?
 
Great project might be overdoing it a little bit.
Right now it's just a great idea.
I do know that it's a project worth doing, I'm just not sure if I'm the one to do it.
Time will tell, but I know that if I move forward with it the knowledge that is available on this forum will spell the difference between failure and success.
Right now I'm a born again rocketeer with a lot to learn.
I've flown an H135 motor in a 4" rocket to about 1500'.
This project is only 40 times as high, 50 times more costly, 60 times more complicated, what could possibly go wrong. LOL
I don't even know what I don't know yet.
 
This is a noble effort with a workable time frame. Looking forward to watching your progress.

Might I ask why 60,000 feet?
 
I would be interested to see what an MD carbon / aluminum O4900 would sim too

All that said, a two stage would surely get you there via a common platform.
 
I would be interested to see what an MD carbon / aluminum O4900 would sim too

All that said, a two stage would surely get you there via a common platform.

Surprisingly not all that high. The O4900 is 6.3" in diameter and has a mass fraction of 0.54. You are already lofting a lot of heavy motor hardware before you add in the rest of the rocket. The rocket you have to build around it is much larger and heavier than a 4" rocket with an O3400, which also has a much higher motor mass fraction of 0.65. In general, you want high aspect ratio motors for altitude.

For reference, my team flew a 6" rocket on a motor that we built that was very similar to the O4900 and it reached around 34kft.
 
Looking at the specs for the O-3400 it does about 21000N.
Has anyone built a 4" research motor substantially bigger than that?
If so what kind of reliability?
 
Many...but now you have entered into a whole 'other realm, & a whole lot more money for custom hardware and equipment/chemicals.
Reliability....that depends on how good you are at making motors.
 
I just dropped 3400 on a new P motor...just as a benchmark. And it took me many years to get to the level of doing this size motor. You start with H's and go up. they get complicated really fast. That's a LOT of hardware and rockets to get to this point....
 
I think it will be hard to do any level 3 project for under $2k. The motor alone for a high altitude attempt is going to probably cost that much.

What do you have in mind?

My L3 came in at $1600, but I could have come in closer to $1200 if I didn't splurge on nice chutes and epoxy clear coat.

Scratch building can save a bundle, but it takes forever for a large project.
 
Surprisingly not all that high. The O4900 is 6.3" in diameter and has a mass fraction of 0.54. You are already lofting a lot of heavy motor hardware before you add in the rest of the rocket. The rocket you have to build around it is much larger and heavier than a 4" rocket with an O3400, which also has a much higher motor mass fraction of 0.65. In general, you want high aspect ratio motors for altitude.

For reference, my team flew a 6" rocket on a motor that we built that was very similar to the O4900 and it reached around 34kft.

Very interesting. I knew the larger diameter would play into it, but did not think it would be that much.

Really thinking that 2 stages is the way to go here
 
To maximize the chance of success I suggest creating a team with skills in each area of the project. A motor guy, electronics guy, recovery, ground support, transport.....etc being assigned to team members is the best way.

The launch sites with a high waiver are few, I believe all are in the west. Your launch date is a Wednesday. Getting a member of AEROPac involved would be good as they have the largest number of launch dates at Black Rock. 6 years out they may be able to just add a day to the waivers for the year.
 
The launch sites with a high waiver are few, I believe all are in the west. Your launch date is a Wednesday. Getting a member of AEROPac involved would be good as they have the largest number of launch dates at Black Rock. 6 years out they may be able to just add a day to the waivers for the year.

FYI, Blackrock is rarely useable in April since it "normally" turns into an actual lake bed. AEROPAC 's first launch of the season is in mid-June and even then we've had to cancel that launch due to water on the playa (see attached pic from this last Saturday 27 Apr'19) our other launches are Aug and Sept. Good luck with your project

IMG_1856.jpg
 
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