Russian model rocket motors and STEM

Russian STEM video gave me leads to Russian motor info:



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It looks like there is only one motor brand.

Motors and igniters:

https://real-rockets.ru/shop/

The RD1-100-7 that led me to that site:

https://real-rockets.ru/shop/motor-rd1-100-7m/

RD1-100-7M engine + igniter
Weight 180g
Length 220mm
Outside diameter 29mm
Delay time 7c
Working hours 2c
Average thrust 50H
Maximum thrust 120H
Total momentum 92-100Нс
860 RUB = 13.49 USD

https://real-rockets.ru/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/rd1-100-7m.jpg
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https://podarini.ru/index.php?productID=467

The solid propellant engine for the RD1-100-7 rocket models will lift the rocket to an unattainable height! A dream came true for rocket makers of a powerful MRD competing with Western peers.

Russia is back in the space race with the United States! The model rocket engine RD1-100-7 is much more powerful than the Soviet MRD. Now Russian rocket-makers can bravely boast spectacular launches in front of their Western colleagues.

This engine for models of rockets continues the well-established RD1 line. Special production technologies and high-precision calculation of surface area significantly increased engine power.

The new rocket engine is designed primarily for experienced rocket makers.

LIMITATION ON AGE
From 16 years!

TECHNICAL SPECIFICATIONS
External diameter 29 mm
Length 240 mm
Channel length 195 mm
Mass 200 g
Impulse thrust total 100-110 N ∙ s
Thrust maximum 120 N
Thrust average 50 N
Charge burning time 2 s
Decelerator burning time 7 s.
CONDITIONS AND RULES OF OPERATION

Store in a dry place at a temperature of -20 to +30 C.
Ignition to produce a specialized electric fuse (supplied).
Fuse insert all the way to a depth of 36 mm.

While the engine is running, it is at a distance of at least 10 m. It is
strictly forbidden to refine the engine.

** Attention! Fuses are very sensitive!
It is possible to trigger from procuring voltage! **

800 RUB = 11.47 USD

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36 slide PowerPoint presentation showing design process and manufacture of rocket - note Russian language OpenRocket.

https://ppt-online.org/518140

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More videos where an RD1-100 (РД1-100) is mentioned in the text.




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Large youth model aircraft and model rocket event. Starting at 5:40, you can briefly see that they're using a remote controlled launch system that looks like it uses an RC aircraft transmitter since the adult is taking one from a kid right after a launch.

"2016 Meeting of young model aircraft 'The sky is open to all'"

Interesting motors. Anyone know what the propellant is? Based on the impulse vs. total dimensions and mass I'd guess BP, but that's obviously not a definitive guess since volume and mass of the propellant alone is not given.

If they are BP, then they hit spots in thrust and impulse that Estes doesn't, several in similar impulse to Estes but shorter burns (higher thrust).

By "standard" nomenclature they would be C8-5, D16-5, E23-5, F30-5, and G50-5. The lack of delay choices is disappointing. All in all, I'd like to get my hands on a few if only I could.

I found the wording to be fascinating (emphasis mine):

Of course, it's marketing material and should be regarded as such, but it almost sounds to me like Soviet era talk.

Yeah, I notice that and at least one other like it, something like "Russia is back in the space race with The United States and others". It's interesting that this Russia-against-the-West talk is effective marketing with Russian hobbyists, or at least this company has reason to expect it will be.

Exactly what I was thinking.

Does anyone else think that one of their rockets look a lot like an Aerotech G-Force?

Do they accept PayPal?

jqavins said:

Interesting motors. Anyone know what the propellant is? Based on the impulse vs. total dimensions and mass I'd guess BP, but that's obviously not a definitive guess since volume and mass of the propellant alone is not given.

Click to expand...

I agree as I estimated by a rough comparison with the dimensions and total impulse of an Aerotech G80.

All in all, I'd like to get my hands on a few if only I could.

Click to expand...

Me, too, but even more I'd love to see German Klima motors (which use higher than BP specific impulse whistle compound) imported or manufactured here. Fat change of either happening, of course.

BTW, years ago I emailed Sport Rocketry and asked them to do an article JUST about foreign motors and they said it was a GREAT idea, but then never produced one as far as I've seen. They said the guy who was ideal for it was in Europe competing at the time. If anyone wants to write such an article PLEASE do so! Of course, I know someone who wrote an article for them which took THREE YEARS to be published, so maybe they have one they have yet to publish?

Sport Rocketry editor's email to either submit a foreign motor article or to BEG him/her to publicly call for and publish one:

[email protected]

Winston said:

Me, too, but even more I'd love to see German Klima motors (which use higher than BP specific impulse whistle compound) imported or manufactured here. Fat change of either happening, of course.

Click to expand...

Oh, heck yeah! I was very disappointed when Quest was rumored to be on the cusp of doing just that, dealing with the import issues, for a long time (couple of years?) before the Aerotech buy-out put the kibosh on that. I'd still love to see someone bypass the import issues by licencing manufacturing here, but if it hasn't happened yet then I have to assume there's a reason.

jqavins said:

Oh, heck yeah! I was very disappointed when Quest was rumored to be on the cusp of doing just that, dealing with the import issues, for a long time (couple of years?) before the Aerotech buy-out put the kibosh on that. I'd still love to see someone bypass the import issues by licencing manufacturing here, but if it hasn't happened yet then I have to assume there's a reason.

Click to expand...

I'll bet the reason is profit vs the cost of starting up. I believe I read in a translated German forum thread about the difficulty in designing and successfully (safely) operating the machinery to create the Klima motors. Whistle compound is extremely friction sensitive, far more than BP. Klima's machine would have to be licensed and built here or just bought from them. On the profit side, the cheaper than composite, paper cased, higher specific impulse, single use, Klima-type motors could undercut the sales of more pricey and profitable composite motors. However, since they could probably be cranked out for the same cost as BP motors, they could destroy a competitor's BP motor sales.

Heck, it seems Aerotech can't even keep up with demand for its current composite motors for some reason. There must be a reason for them not being able or willing to ramp up production adequately.

Winston said:

I'll bet the reason is profit vs the cost of starting up. I believe I read in a translated German forum thread about the difficulty in designing and successfully (safely) operating the machinery to create the Klima motors. Whistle compound is extremely friction sensitive, far more than BP.

Click to expand...

I've made BP, KNSB, KNDX, KNE (epoxy) and several kinds of APCP motors. I've made my own fireworks from 1.5" shells to 6" shells with all kinds of inserts. I've even made flash powder as part of burst charges in fireworks. You know what I haven't messed with? Whistle mix. That stuff is crazy.

heada said:

I've made BP, KNSB, KNDX, KNE (epoxy) and several kinds of APCP motors. I've made my own fireworks from 1.5" shells to 6" shells with all kinds of inserts. I've even made flash powder as part of burst charges in fireworks. You know what I haven't messed with? Whistle mix. That stuff is crazy.

Click to expand...

I think that even though the Klima propellant ingredients I read somewhere, perhaps in that translated German forum thread, described whistle mix, they may have put some unmentioned additive(s) in it to make it less sensitive. At the time, I looked for a patent for the propellant composition and loading machine, but didn't find any which is not to say they don't exist.

As far as pyrotechnics are concerned, I've had no hands-on experience, only theoretical knowledge through reading a big load of books on the topic, PGI bulletins, and PGI seminars at their annual, week-long conventions. I'd need a rural abode and any applicable permits to do anything hands-on and, unfortunately, I don't see that ever happening.

EDIT: knowing that whistles function due to combustion instability, I did some searches using relevant keywords and read links to refresh my memory. While not specifically dealing with whistles, what I found perhaps fleshes out their function - they probably rely on thermoacoustic combustion instability in a resonant cavity and a high burning rate pressure exponent composition. I suspect the same speculated additive(s) possibly used to make the Klima propellant less friction sensitive may also address those characteristics which are definitely not desirable in a rocket propellant. However, perhaps they aren't problematic in a small, highly pressurized rocket combustion chamber. Klima tested and apparently abandoned motors larger than those they're now selling, so perhaps larger sizes presented problems related to the non-ideal characteristics of whistle mix used as a solid rocket propellant.

Anyone off the top of their heads recall any articles on the history of model rocket motors in the US to be found in rocketry magazines? I know of materials on-line about Estes and one that was a fantastic (but not long enough) history of other manufacturer's motors, mainly the composite ones, but it was on a now dead rocketry site. I usually print to PDF such things for just that event - dead links - but if I did I can't find that one.

Winston said:

I think that even though the Klima propellant ingredients I read somewhere, perhaps in that translated German forum thread, described whistle mix, they may have put some unmentioned additive(s) in it to make it less sensitive. At the time, I looked for a patent for the propellant composition and loading machine, but didn't find any which is not to say they don't exist.

Click to expand...

They may have added something and/or not added a standard part to change the burn rate and sensitivity of their mix, I have no way of knowing. Standard fireworks whistle mix is a very strong oxidizer, a decent fuel and a burn rate catalyst mixed in a hydrocarbon matrix (paraffin wax, Vaseline, mineral oil, etc.) and a solvent. That is then mixed and "dried" in a double boiler over water for several hours. The powder is then pressed into tubes with between 1 and several tons of PSI on a press. It is a nozzle-less device that is sensitive in so many ways. Some of the faster mixes have to be ignited from the side of the "motor" since if the fuse was below it, it would block the "nozzle" too much and CATO. It reminds me of the old ZnS micrograin motors. Its a big ole' nope from me.

I read the same about formula, mixing, and firework fabrication in an article published on Skylighter.com. That article states that the stuff is never used with a nozzle because it would provide sufficient confinement to cause a CATO. The implication was that this would reliably CATO every time. So, assuming that article is accurate, Klima has to be using something else. I would guess a variation in the proportions of ingredients, but I'm no expert by any means.

I am thinking that the new high-thrust Qwest motors like the C12-4 are using a formulation something like Klima.

aerostadt said:

I am thinking that the new high-thrust Qwest motors like the C12-4 are using a formulation something like Klima.

Click to expand...

The Quest Q-Jet motors are using standard AeroTech propellant formulations.

Winston said:

Anyone off the top of their heads recall any articles on the history of model rocket motors in the US to be found in rocketry magazines? I know of materials on-line about Estes and one that was a fantastic (but not long enough) history of other manufacturer's motors, mainly the composite ones, but it was on a now dead rocketry site. I usually print to PDF such things for just that event - dead links - but if I did I can't find that one.

Click to expand...

There was an article 10-15 years ago in Sport Rocketry about the history of the Enerjet D21 motor.

Winston said:

Anyone off the top of their heads recall any articles on the history of model rocket motors in the US to be found in rocketry magazines? I know of materials on-line about Estes and one that was a fantastic (but not long enough) history of other manufacturer's motors, mainly the composite ones, but it was on a now dead rocketry site. I usually print to PDF such things for just that event - dead links - but if I did I can't find that one.

Click to expand...

Another article that included the history of hobby rocket motors was printed in an issue of LAUNCH magazine concerning the history of Enerjet.

I don't recall who wrote it...

Q-jets use FastJack smoke propellant. They go Phfffft more than whistle

jqavins said:

I read the same about formula, mixing, and firework fabrication in an article published on Skylighter.com. That article states that the stuff is never used with a nozzle because it would provide sufficient confinement to cause a CATO. The implication was that this would reliably CATO every time. So, assuming that article is accurate, Klima has to be using something else. I would guess a variation in the proportions of ingredients, but I'm no expert by any means.

Click to expand...

I did a search for a thread I started on the Klima motors:

https://www.rocketryforum.com/threads/the-phantom-klima-motors.137162/

...and found the source for Klima's whistle compound use, the Safety Data Sheet (EU MSDS) for the Klima motors linked to in this post in that thread:

https://www.rocketryforum.com/threads/the-phantom-klima-motors.137162/#post-1636773

From that PDF:

3. Composition/information on ingredients

3.1 Substances

Composition/information on ingredients

Substance name: potassium perchlorate
Index-No: 017-008-00-5
EG-No: 231-912-9
CAS-No: 7778-74-7

Substance name: sodium benzoate
Index-No: --
EG-No: 208-534-8
CAS-No: 532-32-1

This mixture does not contain further substances fulfilling the criteria of hazard class "acute toxicity" according to CLP regulation. [NOTE that it doesn't say the propellant doesn't contain any other ingredients - my guess would be moderators/desensitizers - W]

From a pyrotech forum discussion about using sodium rather than potassium benzoate for whistles, it's noted that the difference is mainly that it's cheaper, but more hygroscopic.

Initiator001 said:

There was an article 10-15 years ago in Sport Rocketry about the history of the Enerjet D21 motor.

Click to expand...

Thanks, hopefully not 15 years since my back issues only go back to 2007.

Initiator001 said:

Another article that included the history of hobby rocket motors was printed in an issue of LAUNCH magazine concerning the history of Enerjet.

I don't recall who wrote it...

Click to expand...

Darn, never subscribed to Launch.

aerostadt said:

I am thinking that the new high-thrust Qwest motors like the C12-4 are using a formulation something like Klima.

Click to expand...

Hmmm, going to have to do a patent application search.

This is getting close to formula discussion. caution advised

heada said:

It reminds me of the old ZnS micrograin motors.

Click to expand...

High Power Rocketry had a number of great articles on the activities of Reaction Research Society, including one on zinc/sulfur. I've got back issues of HPR back to 1993, so I'll have to look.

Come to think of it, I take back the no pyrotech experience claim. I and a friend did KNO3/sugar and zinc/sulfur from 8th grade through high school. Nozzleless zinc sulfur were all we did with that propellant (very impressive exhaust) while the KNO3/sugar rockets used Durham's Rock Hard Water Putty nozzles and end plugs.

Winston said:

From a pyrotech forum discussion about using sodium rather than potassium benzoate for whistles, it's noted that the difference is mainly that it's cheaper, but more hygroscopic.

Click to expand...

Benzoates are slower burning than the other fuel I know of (trying not to name oxidizers or fuels). I'm not sure if it lowers the sensitivity or not compared to the other fuel but even the benzoate based whistle mixes are sensitive.

Nytrunner said:

This is getting close to formula discussion. caution advised

Click to expand...

Yep, that's why I didn't link to the pyrotech forum discussion. Also, warning to kids and irresponsible adults - don't read High Power Rocketry back issues.

Nytrunner said:

This is getting close to formula discussion. caution advised

Click to expand...

That reminds me, was that restricted access propulsion (research) forum eliminated or is it just hidden?