Electronics Bay Design - Sealing, and why 'two' rods?

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Curtis Enlow

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I understand that stresses of deployment and the weight of the rocket need to be reliably transmitted by internal structure during deployment, and that a metal rod through the electronics bay is the simplest way to transmit those stresses through the electronics bay via eye-bolts or U-bolts to the shock cords/straps on each end. But is there any reason why there have to be 'two' all-thread rods, other than to hold the electronics sled in position in a high MP/low HP rocket?

Is there any reason that the electronics sled could not be held in position by (relatively) lighter weight Basswood rails on the sides of the electronics bay coupler tube (providing that the single rod adequately locates & secures the sled longitudinally) and carries the stresses to the shock cord attachments on each end?

Finally, has anyone tried using an O-ring to seal the electronics bay bulkheads to the electronics bay coupler, as below?* If so, how did it work for you?

*(Sorry for the inaccurate drawing, but you get the idea).

coupler-o-ring.jpg

Thanks!

C
 
Not sure what the O-ring would avail you?

Only real reason to use two rods is that it just makes sled attachment easier. Also prevents the sled from spinning and wires pulling loose.
 
I was actually planning on using an oring to seal the electronics bay to the bulkhead. I figured that the compressional force combined with the fact that it's not really in the line of fire of the ejection gases (less force trying to get in) would mean it doesn't need to be sealed. I am however using orings to seal the nuts on each side of the threaded rod as it's the only place on the top of the bulkhead that is not sealed with epoxy.
 
I commonly use a single 1/4-20 all thread with two eye nuts. I keep the sled from rotating via a locator (usually a 1/4" sq piece of balsa) on the top bulk plate that rests against the sled. I silver solder or weld the top eye nut to the rod and tap a set screw into the lower one. You can also use safety wire to keep the eye nuts from rotating.

Here is one of several ways to keep the sled from rotating....


102_0852.JPG 102_0853.JPG
 
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I was actually planning on using an oring to seal the electronics bay to the bulkhead. I figured that the compressional force combined with the fact that it's not really in the line of fire of the ejection gases (less force trying to get in) would mean it doesn't need to be sealed. I am however using orings to seal the nuts on each side of the threaded rod as it's the only place on the top of the bulkhead that is not sealed with epoxy.

That was my thinking, Ben. I was considering connector blocks for the charges, but frankly, given the corrosion issues the contacts could become a fail point pretty quickly. I like the idea of disposable plastic vials for charges and putty-sealing the match wires.

I commonly use a single 1/4-20 all thread with two eye nuts. I keep the sled from rotating via a locator (usually a 1/4" sq piece of balsa) on the top bulk plate that rests against the sled. I silver solder or weld the top eye nut to the rod and tap a set screw into the lower one. You can also use safety wire to keep the eye nuts from rotating.

Titan, can you describe the 'eyenuts'? I was considering a common backing plate to the single rod and u-bolts, but your system sounds simpler. Just drawing a blank on what an eye it is...

Nevermind. Googled it ;)

Thanks, guys!
 
I have only ever used a single all-thread in my e-bays. I attach my recovery harness directly to the all-thread or use an eye-nut. I also have a couple that are sealed with o-rings pretty much like you show. But if you have a close fitting end piece they aren't always necessary.


Tony


example eye nut (for other folks who are interested):
eye-nut.jpg
 
Here is my single-rod design so far. Using aluminum all-thread made a tremendous difference in weight, essentially giving the batteries a free ride.

Waiting on the re-flashed RRC2-Mini from Jim at Missileworks to do the final routing and switch install. I will use aquarium tubng hot glued into place to serve as guides and hold-downs for the e-match wires. I also need to trim the excess threads on some of the fasteners.

I have plastic tubing on the battery retaining/electronics mount stand-offs, and have tried to use the fasteners in such a way as to serve multiple purposes, when possible, to save weight. Keep in mind this is a small, 4" low-range HP rocket.

AV-Bay-3.jpg


AV-Bay-1.jpg


AV-Bay-2.jpg
 
This is the way I am sealing the 1/4" all thread on my L3 rocket. I am using a neoprene washer, stainless washer, stainless locking washer, and stainless nut. This should seal the rod from ejection charge gases and spread the load. It is probably overkill, but the additional mass is negligible.20190502_034939.jpeg
 
This is the way I am sealing the 1/4" all thread on my L3 rocket. I am using a neoprene washer, stainless washer, stainless locking washer, and stainless nut. This should seal the rod from ejection charge gases and spread the load. It is probably overkill, but the additional mass is negligible.View attachment 382826

I have room for a neroprene fender washer under the interior load distributing washer, and will seal the cup fasteners, as well.
 
A swivel on the aft BT and lock washer on the eye but isn't enough to keep it working loose?
No, not really. Swivels have a really bad habit of not swiveling when you think that they should....and shock loads are notorious for breaking torque, even with lock nuts. Plan for the worst case, sooner or later it will happen.

For an anchor point and 30 seconds worth of safety wire, or 2 minutes worth of drilling/tapping a cross lock....why not have fool proof safety? Otherwise, to my mind, what you gained in weight savings has been obtained at the cost of safety.
 
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Part of designing a recovery system is factoring in what is needed when things don't go exactly as planned. A deployment too early or too late will cause much more force on your recovery system than a perfectly timed deployment. Research recovery failures due to non-forged eyebolts to see what can happen to steel when deployments are not timed perfectly. I think steel all-thread is a much better choice than aluminum for that reason alone.
 
Thanks, Zeus.

The eye nuts are Stainless, so I feel pretty safe about them, though i agree with Tom that spinning free is a serious concern that needs to be addressed. I can't find the specific numbers, but even aluminum thread if engaged at 1.5 dia. is still pretty substantial. Honestly, if something happens to tension shear all the threads off a half-inch of 1/4"-20 NC rod - aluminum or steel - it's probably already a pretty bad day, and that was, generally, my reasoning. If that much force is present then it's just about how many pieces are there to pick up and how far are they scattered at that point... ;)
 
Just to add, because I don't mean to disregard your valued input, if this were an L2 or L3 rocket I think your concerns would be right on for a number of reasons. But this is a 4lb rocket on an H or I motor and I don't think those weights and accelerations can produce enough force to damage the hardware in the manner we're discussing.
 
Just to add, because I don't mean to disregard your valued input, if this were an L2 or L3 rocket I think your concerns would be right on for a number of reasons. But this is a 4lb rocket on an H or I motor and I don't think those weights and accelerations can produce enough force to damage the hardware in the manner we're discussing.
Figure for a 100G Uh-Oh as an extreme case so that the hardware needs to with stand 400lbs for its WLL for it to remain undamaged, or use 400lbs as its breaking strength and throw away the hardware after such an event (breaking strength is usually 3x WLL). 50G's is a much more realistic Uh-Oh to "plan" for. These are not unheard of numbers, and usually if seen are related to deployment events.
 
..<snipped>...Research recovery failures due to non-forged eyebolts to see what can happen to steel when deployments are not timed perfectly. I think steel all-thread is a much better choice than aluminum for that reason alone.
I use aluminum all-thread on many of my rockets. The tensile strength of the aluminum all-thread I use is 42,000 psi, which would require a force of 2,000 lbs. before it yields. That is more than sufficient for the vast majority of my rockets. For the all-thread to fail, every other component transferring force to it would have to be stronger than the all-thread, which in a typical recovery setup is not going to happen. Something else is going to fail first.

For example, the forged steel 1/4" x 20 eye nut that I use and sold by Grainger has a working load of 520 lbs.

Of course, nothing wrong with going for a larger safety margin. But it's still useful to look at the numbers.

Tony
 
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You guys are all correct. The reason I say you are all correct is not to be appeasing, but because I think we're all concerned with the same solutions, it's really just a matter of scale. I know enough - conceptually - about Newton's Second Law to make a rough guess at the forces that my little LOC IV might encounter on an 'H' motor, and given the limitations of such a rocket there are compromises that have to be made that I certainly would not make on a larger rocket with more mass, or approaching or exceeding Mach 1. If a four-pound rocket was going 320 MPH at the peak of its boost and the aft end suddenly came to a dead stop, how much force would be applied to the eye nut on the bottom of the coupler tube? I would love to know that. But I will never know that, so I have to guess, and only my experiences and the experiences of others will tell me how likely that is to happen and whether I need to seriously plan for it, or not.

A couple days before my third birthday I distinctly remember watching John Glenn blastoff in Friendship 7, and from that day forward I was fascinated and enamored with any machine that flew (as well as an admirer of birds). I have played, studied or worked in aviation/aerospace all of my life, but my greatest life regret is that my math skills (I had an sadistic elementary teacher who taught me to hate, loathe & fear numbers) never allowed me to progress beyond a conceptual and, albeit, well-earned, but limited - instinctual feel for engineering in the things that I love. I regret it most because I would love to be able to precisely balance strength vs. weight in all my flying hobbies, because that is the key to anything that flies well.

I would love to master the shift+[yellow keys] on my calculator and to be able to apply all those 'Greek-to-me' aerodynamic engineering and material science formulas to my aircraft & rockets, but I can't, but that's okay; I love doing this stuff and figuring it out on-the-fly (pun intended), and exploring just how far & well 'if it looks good it probably is good' actually works ;) So far I've done pretty well in my endeavors, but I really wish someone would write Rocket Math & Aerodynamics for Dummies because it would become my favorite book.

I've already learned a metric crap ton of conceptual rocket engineering and solutions from people here, and lock-wiring eye nuts, manipulating ejection charges for best effect, etc., have been just a few things I have picked up in the way of sensible application - thanks for all of that!

Sorry for the rant. it's late and my beta waves go crazy after 10pm, but that's when I do my best work ;)
 
Not sure what the O-ring would avail you?

I use o-rings to seal avionics too. They work well: https://forum.ausrocketry.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5019&start=60
I use some hotmelt glue around the other connectors in the bulkhead. It breaks away easy when needed. The connectors get a dose of contact grease to keep the contacts protected too.

Note that you can use a custom length bike spoke for smaller avionics bays. They are cut to your specified length and threaded. Breaking load if you go titanuim (about $8AUD per spoke last time I had it done) is 280kg for a standard (~2mm diameter) spoke. You can use as many or as few as you need to take the relevant forces.
 
A flat gasket would work better in that orientation (think oil filter square edged gasket) since o-rings are intended to seal radially (or is it axially, can't seem to keep those 2 straight), basically internally. I just drill/tap the eye nut shoulders for a 4-40 set screw to keep them from un-screwing, works for me...
 
There are more than one way to use o-rings. You can use them in compression, like your oil filter example, or they can be used to fill a gap (like sealing my avionics). The compression method is self-explanatory. The gap-filling method relies on the pressure getting into the groove of the o-ring and attempting to extruded it through the gap it is sealing. The elastomer deforms to fill the gap but not enough to go through it.
 
If done right with the right amount of friction and a swivel, you can use a single rod. I have never had one open up. I prefer 2-rods, but acknowledge it is personal preference.
 
Interesting discussion guys. I am not a mechanical engineer so looking up and interpreting these numbers is not my specialty. But one thing you need to consider is that when the parachute opens the forces on the recovery system may not be in line with the rod. They may be at some significant angle off that axis. Is that torsional force? This is what concerns about using a single all-thread aluminum rod.

I would think worst case would be 90 degrees off axis. How much force would it take to make the rod bend? If the rod bends what happens to the av bay and the sled? As I said, I don't know how to interpret those numbers, but someone who knows how to do it might want to do it for grins and giggles nd let us know.

I am being overly cautious as I have seen the college teams that show up at our launches do some, well, let's call them questionable things. Sadly, their success rate is on the low side. I have proposed cracking down on these teams and insisting on more information on their rockets before they show up to launch.

For example, at our last launch a team from a university had a 12 foot tall, 55 pound rocket (my estimates). They brought their own pad and an 8 foot stepladder. Once the rocket was on the pad they couldn't turn on all of their electronics even standing on top of the ladder. Oops! I was told there were three sets of altimeters as there were three ejection events as this was one of the NASA challenges. I am sure it was the nose cone altimeters they couldn't turn on. They had to tip the rocket over slightly to turn on all of the electronics. I was busy with my own stuff and didn't see them do this which I am sure was very entertaining. In the end the flight was not a success as only one of the three ejection events worked as planned.
 
No, not really. Swivels have a really bad habit of not swiveling when you think that they should....and shock loads are notorious for breaking torque, even with lock nuts. Plan for the worst case, sooner or later it will happen.

For an anchor point and 30 seconds worth of safety wire, or 2 minutes worth of drilling/tapping a cross lock....why not have fool proof safety? Otherwise, to my mind, what you gained in weight savings has been obtained at the cost of safety.

U-Bolts don't spin . . . Double nuts with RED Loc-Tite or JB Weld !

I like to use two rods to mount the sled, BUT not in a "weight-bearing" manner, for Recovery loads.
 
...<snip>...But one thing you need to consider is that when the parachute opens the forces on the recovery system may not be in line with the rod. They may be at some significant angle off that axis. Is that torsional force? This is what concerns about using a single all-thread aluminum rod....<snip>....
Also keep in mind that the rocket is not fixed - it is free to move in 360 degrees (at least while in flight). If the rocket is at an angle to the force it will turn to relieve that stress.

Most of us base our builds on our past experience. On all my 4" and smaller rockets, I've only ever used a single rod, and lately aluminum, and only ever secured with split lock washers. In spite of high-G deployment events (I probably use too-short shock cords) I've never suffered any kind of failure of the all-thread or mounting system. That's in nearly 20 years and 8 years of BALLS flights.

As I mentioned above, all the other recovery components would have to be stronger than the all-thread in order to impart enough force to break it. I just don't see that happening based on my experience. It would be interesting to hear reports of where all-thread has failed in the manner under consideration in this thread.

Tony
 
Also keep in mind that the rocket is not fixed - it is free to move in 360 degrees (at least while in flight). If the rocket is at an angle to the force it will turn to relieve that stress.

Most of us base our builds on our past experience. On all my 4" and smaller rockets, I've only ever used a single rod, and lately aluminum, and only ever secured with split lock washers. In spite of high-G deployment events (I probably use too-short shock cords) I've never suffered any kind of failure of the all-thread or mounting system. That's in nearly 20 years and 8 years of BALLS flights.

As I mentioned above, all the other recovery components would have to be stronger than the all-thread in order to impart enough force to break it. I just don't see that happening based on my experience. It would be interesting to hear reports of where all-thread has failed in the manner under consideration in this thread.

Tony

I wouldn’t be worried as much about breaking the aluminum all-thread as stripping the threads off. That of course depends on thread fit and length of thread engagement. The force that a few threads may withstand on a steel threaded rod requires more threads on aluminum threaded rods. But I agree, that’s highly unlikely.
 
Interesting discussion guys. I am not a mechanical engineer so looking up and interpreting these numbers is not my specialty. But one thing you need to consider is that when the parachute opens the forces on the recovery system may not be in line with the rod. They may be at some significant angle off that axis. Is that torsional force? This is what concerns about using a single all-thread aluminum rod.

I think that is a really good question, and that's where things get complex. I think it's a combination of the tensile & shear strength of the fasteners/rod(s) and how the bulkheads are seated within the coupler tube and how much compression there is holding the two bulkheads in place. I think if there is enough compressive force holding the shouldered bulkheads in place and the fasteners hold that the coupler will, essentially, act as one unit with regards to any radial forces acting upon it, the skin, if you will, of the coupler tube sharing much of the compression, torsional and shearing loads.

I would think the other factor would be how much shear strength the body tube has, or how much force would you have to exert before the cardboard ring engaged with the shoulder of the bulkhead ripped? One could probably get an idea of how hard it would be to rip out a bulkhead sideways with a 1/4" shoulder by cutting a 1"4 ring of spare coupler tube and trying to pull it in two, but that would not fully represent the other structure involved - bulkheads, fasteners, rods, etc., helping to share and distribute those loads. It would only indicate the shear strength of the cardboard tube alone.

With regards to deforming the aluminum rod, I think you have a valid concern if the rod were, essentially, unsupported except at the ends (I can tell you, 6' of 1/4" 20 aluminum rod is really floppy!). I guess I would look at it this way: If you put a piece of 8" dry spaghetti between two dominoes it's very easy to bend. If you put a domino in the middle, less so. Adding more support it resists deformation and will only break when its shear strength is exceeded. Also, it will bend less so if you actually apply some tensile force to it, which is why the suggestion above of using titanium bicycle spokes is so brilliant, providing the coupler tube carries the torsional, compression and radial loads, which monocoque structures do incredibly well. I think the entire coupler assembly would likely have to fail before the rod would bend, and the threaded ends in the eye nuts and being under tension would be the last part to bend at all. This is why I have the rod under internal tension and supported in four places in my build.

You might remember the childhood experiment of making a ring of simple unfolded paper and then placing a heavy book on it only to have the thin piece of paper carry the weight without crushing. This is why rocket body tubes do their job so well - they are extremely strong for the forces they are expected to encounter. A little aside, but the Atlas rocket that was used in the orbital Mercury shots had skin so thin that when it was not fueled and was in a horizontal position the entire rocket had to be supported by by special tooling and cradles to keep it from collapsing under its own weight. There is a video out there of a failed Atlas launch, and as the fuel tanks rupture you can see the entire rocket skin failing and crumpling like a sheet of tin foil (which is about what it was). Yet, when held under tension by pressurized fuel tanks it could withstand the extreme forces of going supersonic. This is why there are successful examples of people using cardboard tube rockets for L3 and supersonic flights.

I think a resource that every rocketeer should have is a copy of The Machinist's Handbook. There are several sources, you could probably pick one up at a used book store for a song, and they are a wealth of information in fastener strength, proper hole sizes for fasteners (incredibly important!), optimum hole spacing, O-rings sizes and retaining, etc., etc..

This app might be an awesome resource: https://www.machinist-handbook.com/
 
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It occurs to me to be surprised nobody has yet offered fiberglass coupler with built-in slide channels.

Is Steve from Mach 1 around, I've got another elevator pitch for him.
 
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