the LAUNCH CANADA challenge

madcow rocketry
the rocketry show
Advertise with us
The Rocketry Forum

Help Support The Rocketry Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
midpower_madness said:
It's not a numbers issue - its an issue with our values and drive to make real change. We are overly litigious to the point of stupid in this country and it scares off new blood.
What I see is an issue with how the hobby is introduced to new flyers. The CAR/ACF is a virtual unknown to anyone in the regular hobby field because they don't do any advertising to youth groups. Where is the spirit of learning and modelling of innovation for our youth? It doesn't exist in Canada. UVIc, UBC and other Universities have to head to the US to fly because - as they put it, flying in Canada is overly complex. Not so in the US. In the USA you have the NAR/TRA advertising the heck out of events and getting the ball rolling. Meanwhile, educators in Canada are left on our own to find locations and blaze trails and when we get a CAR/ACF membership it doesn't do anything for us unless we want a high power certificate. So why pay the money when I can go South of the boarder and get advice from an active community that communicates with the world.
Click to expand...
 
midpower_madness said:
It's not a numbers issue - its an issue with our values and drive to make real change. We overly litigious to the point of stupid... and it scares off new blood.
What I see is an issue with how the hobby is introduced to new flyers. The CAR/ACF is a virtual unknown to anyone in the regular hobby field because they don't do any advertising to youth groups. Where is the spirit of learning and modelling of innovation for our youth? It doesn't exist in Canada. UVIc, UBC and other Universities have to head to the US to fly because - as they put it, flying in Canada is overly complex. Not so in the US. In the USA you have the NAR/TRA advertising the heck out of events and getting the ball rolling. Meanwhile, educators in Canada are left on our own to find locations and blaze trails and when we get a CAR/ACF membership it doesn't do anything for us unless we want a high power certificate. So why pay the money when I can go South of the boarder and get advice from an active community that communicates with the world.
Click to expand...

Mr. Madness, go reply in my other thread: Feeling kinda stupid. (and I'll ask you the same question I asked Tyler..)
https://www.rocketryforum.com/threads/i’m-feeling-kinda-stupid.150769/

CAR is but one entity in Canada. TRA is also available in Canada, for clubs. The rules are slightly different between CAR & TRA..
 
midpower_madness said:
Universities have to head to the US to fly because - as they put it, flying in Canada is overly complex.
Click to expand...

What is complex about flying in Canada? All organization fly pretty much under the same conditions here or elsewhere. Organizations are required to have authorization to use the airspace, transportation of motors are regulated, all organizations have certification programs, range safety programs. What am I missing?

midpower_madness said:
In the USA you have the NAR/TRA advertising the heck out of events and getting the ball rolling
Click to expand...

Is it the NAR and TRA advertising or is it the clubs associated with those organizations? You are right about the organization needing an appropriate framework in place for its target membership. TRA, as far as I know, does not target youth, their audience is high power. NAR has and is doing a fantastic job in both camps, primary because they were the predominant modelling organization, then ventured into HPR, while maintaining the modelling side. Perfect conditions!

midpower_madness said:
Meanwhile, educators in Canada are left on our own to find locations and blaze trails
Click to expand...

Clubs find their fields, or local organizers. CAR/ACF, TRA and NAR as the parent organization do not find fields or maintain the relationship to the landowner, it is the local club or group that finds the fields and maintains that relationship. I am curious why some people expect someone else to find launch fields for them. I guess because it is really really hard to do that and then maintain that relationship. And yes I have been part of getting fields for the local club with two still in process with TC to approve them (site logistics, altitude and such).

Sorry again, what am I missing in this equation?

David
 
hutch said:
It's really too bad that the organizers of this are not doing anything to encourage rocketry at the school level. The Team America Rocketry Challenge (TARC) in the US has been very successful. I've been told though that Canada is not involved, primarily because we cannot get any sponsorship at the federal level from anyone at all... there has been no interest from industry or government. Without this sponsorship, we cannot participate, and Canadian schools are left out.
Click to expand...

And why is that? I both advised AND mentored TARC teams here in the US. We did fundraisers at our school to raise the money for materials and motors, and biggest of all, transportation and lodging for the trip from California to Virginia...coast to coast. Since I retired from teaching, we have put on a TARC event locally for students that didn't make the TARC finals to compete in. Then we moved the event up so teams could do our 'competition' and use it as an additional launch opportunity to qualify for the TARC finals. I never received any industry or government funding to do that. Just takes individuals commited to make things happen. Do that and industry/government will often tag along.
 
High Desert Rocketry said:
And why is that? I both advised AND mentored TARC teams here in the US. We did fundraisers at our school to raise the money for materials and motors, and biggest of all, transportation and lodging for the trip from California to Virginia...coast to coast. Since I retired from teaching, we have put on a TARC event locally for students that didn't make the TARC finals to compete in. Then we moved the event up so teams could do our 'competition' and use it as an additional launch opportunity to qualify for the TARC finals. I never received any industry or government funding to do that. Just takes individuals commited to make things happen. Do that and industry/government will often tag along.
Click to expand...

Exactly right, Rick!
 
midpower_madness said:
My apologies for the rant. I enjoy rocketry and wish to see it pushed into the mainstream as it is in the US.
Click to expand...

Hey Midpower, I think we all have been there, wanting things to happen faster, or even for that matter, just happen. Unfortunately we all have to work within a framework designed by others, in response to silly things of folks before that. Getting rocketry more active here in Canada is something I would like to see too. And to do that we need launch sites that are close to flyers, ideally or at least reasonable close. So how do we do that, that is the question you and many others have asked directly or indirectly. From what I have seen there is no magic here, you have to know someone who is willing to take a risk to allow this activity on their land. Having some excitement go along with it such as the world focusing on rocketry and other planets and moons starts to help us down that path. and luck, lots of luck.

David
 
High Desert Rocketry said:
And why is that? I both advised AND mentored TARC teams here in the US. We did fundraisers at our school to raise the money for materials and motors, and biggest of all, transportation and lodging for the trip from California to Virginia...coast to coast. Since I retired from teaching, we have put on a TARC event locally for students that didn't make the TARC finals to compete in. Then we moved the event up so teams could do our 'competition' and use it as an additional launch opportunity to qualify for the TARC finals. I never received any industry or government funding to do that. Just takes individuals commited to make things happen. Do that and industry/government will often tag along.
Click to expand...

A challenge we have here in Canada is that we cannot run TARC contests because we do not have industry or government sponsorship. So it is really the other way around from how you're portraying it. We can't even start a TARC team, because we have no national sponsorship (at least this is according to some senior people in the US I spoke to at NARAM - 60.)

It's hard to get things done locally, when you are essentially just a bunch of local organizations, or one single teacher. It would be great to get some sponsorship going that was similar to the "Launch Canada Challenge", but is targetted at kids and especially at science and shop teachers who can influence their kids. The "Launch Canada Challenge" seems to be a great idea for university teams, to help them get access to launch sites for amateur rocketry.

But for MODEL rockets, A - G power, and even High power - we have a lack of help for groups who want to grow the hobby at that level.
 
hutch said:
A challenge we have here in Canada is that we cannot run TARC contests because we do not have industry or government sponsorship. So it is really the other way around from how you're portraying it. We can't even start a TARC team, because we have no national sponsorship (at least this is according to some senior people in the US I spoke to at NARAM - 60.)

It's hard to get things done locally, when you are essentially just a bunch of local organizations, or one single teacher. It would be great to get some sponsorship going that was similar to the "Launch Canada Challenge", but is targetted at kids and especially at science and shop teachers who can influence their kids. The "Launch Canada Challenge" seems to be a great idea for university teams, to help them get access to launch sites for amateur rocketry.

But for MODEL rockets, A - G power, and even High power - we have a lack of help for groups who want to grow the hobby at that level.
Click to expand...


I concur, there are actually a lot of us teachers doing programs, scout leaders doing others, and so on. What I'm noticing is while kids think it's cool as a class or project, the uptake after that for a hobby they stick with is slight to none. Not sure how to change that, if you're not interested, you're just not...

But, if all the scout groups and cadet groups and classes in my region had a combined launch...now that could be cool. It could make for some good regional flyoffs/competitions for the fun of it, or better yet, for prizes like with TARC.

Maybe I'll work on it :)
 
there is also the father or mother who doesn't see the importance or the merits of it.. so the kid isn't supported in his 'desire' to pursue it.

Also, the perceived "complexity' of it..

From my experience, teachers don't know about it, don't have the funding, or just don't have the time to dig into & develop it. A local library apparently gets requests all the time for "rocketry". I'm willing to do it. I told them what I need, what I expect, and the cost. "No, it needs to be something they can build & fly in a few hours" meaning one session of about 2 hours..

The teachers all thought it neat, and some even took my name & such when I gave a 'let's talk rocket science' blurb at a local school board "space day" event. never heard from them..
 
I may have just hit the jackpot with sponsorship through SIP - Camosun College but it will involve discussion and paperwork but this could massive for youth club based rocketry in BC. I’ll let everyone in on the discussion once everything is finalized.
 
midpower_madness said:
I may have just hit the jackpot with sponsorship through SIP - Camosun College but it will involve discussion and paperwork but this could massive for youth club based rocketry in BC. I’ll let everyone in on the discussion once everything is finalized.
Click to expand...

Very cool! I"m in touch with the University of Victoria Rocketry Club (they participate in the Intercollegiate Rocket Engineering Competition (IREC) in the US). They are keen to attend one of your launches - I think they would be quite impressed and surprised at the level that your students are at!
 
I know there are CAR/ACF members working with SOAR in Calgary, they've been to some of our launch sites for attempted launches. The more CAR/ACF members can connect with these teams the better for both. If we can dial in the LAUNCH teams to work off a CAR/ACF site that would be a real boon. Keep up the hard work guys, this could be good for all involved!
 
Dates are ironed out and we have official word - SIP is moving on the rocketry meeting to mid April meeting for a potential Skills Canada event for the Fall of 2019. We have lots of interest! If everything goes as planned - we will need to sell this to the schools - middle school and high school. Looking at altitude competition based on impulse, egg lifter challenge ..... any other cool challenges anyone else can think up? We are thinking about sticking with E, F and G class motors. Please give suggestions. I'm all for it.
 
Last edited:
midpower_madness said:
Dates are ironed out and we have official word - SIP is moving on the rocketry meeting to mid April meeting for a potential Skills Canada event for the Fall of 2019. We have lots of interest! If everything goes as planned - we will need to sell this to the schools - middle school and high school. Looking at altitude competition based on impulse, egg lifter challenge ..... any other cool challenges anyone else can think up? We are thinking about sticking with E, F and G class motors. Please give suggestions. I'm all for it.
Click to expand...
I am very keen to get involved. I have some contacts at local schools in Saanich. I also have a bit of experience with competition rocketry - eggloft, altitude, parachute and streamer duration, boost glide etc. It would be easiest to go with NAR or CAR competition guidelines, rather than re-writing the book. NAR has been running competitions for 60 years now,so they have it down!

For kids in schools that are not as highly advanced as yours, lower impulse engines might be more "do-able". Competition with mid-power is a HUGE challenge. It's hard enough with A - C motors.

It would be great to get together for a brain-storming session at some point.
 
Crayok said:
Hey Hutch NAR or FAI guidelines. Garth is probably the better to comment on competition rules and such. CAR/ACF guidlines will be out of date and were based on NAR rules anyhow I believe.

David
Click to expand...

Yes, NAR guidelines would be best for competition - and yes, I do believe the CAR competition guidelines were based on NAR rules - at least in the 1970's when I was first competing. (Pink book, anyone? Or as we called it, the Cook Book, in recognition of Peter Cook)

NAR has changed some of the guidelines and rules for competition over the years - all for the better IMO.
 
Thanks everyone. Hutch, I'll be contacting you soon.
hutch said:
I am very keen to get involved. I have some contacts at local schools in Saanich. I also have a bit of experience with competition rocketry - eggloft, altitude, parachute and streamer duration, boost glide etc. It would be easiest to go with NAR or CAR competition guidelines, rather than re-writing the book. NAR has been running competitions for 60 years now,so they have it down!

For kids in schools that are not as highly advanced as yours, lower impulse engines might be more "do-able". Competition with mid-power is a HUGE challenge. It's hard enough with A - C motors.

It would be great to get together for a brain-storming session at some point.
Click to expand...

We'll be scaffolding motors with age groups. But we do want a range of motors and challenge levels. A-C is a great start.
 
Hutch,

You guys should consider the NAR's National Rocketry Competition program, this years six events are 1/4A Parachute Duration, 1/4A Helicopter Duration, A Boost Glide Duration
B Payload (altimeter) altitude
B Eggloft Duration and C Eggloft (altimeter) altitude. if you are a NAR member, to can log in to NAR and have any launch run as an NRC event, you can then upload any qualified score to the NAR Contest Web page to compare against all others competing in the same events. The NRC runs from July to July of each year. The low power events can be extremely challenging and also lend themselves to flying in school grounds. I am hoping to post some flights to the NAR Scoreboard for this years events sometime in May.

Garth
NAR 26894 L2
 
Hi Garth, you are absolutely right - I have been thinking that the NAR competitions would be perfect. George P and I are planning to head to Seattle in May to launch with Bernard C and the BEMRC group - perhaps I will get some competition models ready! But the main thing is to fly my Saturn V and Little Joe II there....

Dave
NAR 219009




Quixote said:
Hutch,

You guys should consider the NAR's National Rocketry Competition program, this years six events are 1/4A Parachute Duration, 1/4A Helicopter Duration, A Boost Glide Duration
B Payload (altimeter) altitude
B Eggloft Duration and C Eggloft (altimeter) altitude. if you are a NAR member, to can log in to NAR and have any launch run as an NRC event, you can then upload any qualified score to the NAR Contest Web page to compare against all others competing in the same events. The NRC runs from July to July of each year. The low power events can be extremely challenging and also lend themselves to flying in school grounds. I am hoping to post some flights to the NAR Scoreboard for this years events sometime in May.

Garth
NAR 26894 L2
Click to expand...
 
dr wogz said:
Has there been any traction or movement on this competition?
Click to expand...
Paul, The NAR's National Rocketry Competition Events for the 2019-2020 season have been announced they are:

NRC EVENTS FOR 2019-2020 CONTEST YEAR ANNOUNCED


NRC events for 2019-2020 Contest Year Announced (Updated 7.1.19)
Per rules 13.1.1 through 13.1.2 of the United States Model Rocket Sporting Code (USMRSC), the NAR Contest Board has selected the following 6 NRC events for the 2019-2020 contest year, including NARAM 62:

1/2A B/G
1/2A SD
1/2A HD
1/2A PD
1/2A ALT
B Payload

Per the USMRSC, NRC launches with scores to qualify for Event Specialist and National Awards for the 2019-2020 contest year can be held from August 4, 2019 (the day after NARAM-61) until June 30, 2020.

As you can see these are all low power events, that can be very challenging to do well and all can be flown in small fields like a school yard. The Airdrie Space Science Club NAR section # 794 attempted to run last years events, but almost all our launches were scrubbed due to poor weather. We will attempt to run the new events at all our club launches this fall and next spring. We will upload all scores from our NAR members to the NAR website. Most of our junior members are CAR so although they can compete and we will present some awards their flight data will not be uploaded.

Garth Illerbrun
NAR 26894 L 2
 
Quixote said:
Paul, The NAR's National Rocketry Competition Events for the 2019-2020 season have been announced they are:

NRC EVENTS FOR 2019-2020 CONTEST YEAR ANNOUNCED


NRC events for 2019-2020 Contest Year Announced (Updated 7.1.19)
Per rules 13.1.1 through 13.1.2 of the United States Model Rocket Sporting Code (USMRSC), the NAR Contest Board has selected the following 6 NRC events for the 2019-2020 contest year, including NARAM 62:

1/2A B/G
1/2A SD
1/2A HD
1/2A PD
1/2A ALT
B Payload

Per the USMRSC, NRC launches with scores to qualify for Event Specialist and National Awards for the 2019-2020 contest year can be held from August 4, 2019 (the day after NARAM-61) until June 30, 2020.

As you can see these are all low power events, that can be very challenging to do well and all can be flown in small fields like a school yard. The Airdrie Space Science Club NAR section # 794 attempted to run last years events, but almost all our launches were scrubbed due to poor weather. We will attempt to run the new events at all our club launches this fall and next spring. We will upload all scores from our NAR members to the NAR website. Most of our junior members are CAR so although they can compete and we will present some awards their flight data will not be uploaded.

Garth Illerbrun
NAR 26894 L 2
Click to expand...

Actually, Garth, i was referring to the original post, the "Launch Canada" competition.

(The thread veered w-a-a-a-y off track thru the 2 pages. But it started with a Canadian High power type competition..)
 
thanks David, curious to know if any are coming form "east" (QC, ON, Atlantic) and was curious as to the teams, and what they have built..

And, no mention on the website..
 
The UVic Rocketry team toasted their model at the Spaceport America Cup last month, so I don't think they would have anything ready in time for a supposed Cold Lake launch. It would take a lot of fundraising just to get a team there, and they've likely blown their budget getting to New Mexico this year.

The whole thing is a bit overly optimistic IMO. Maybe next year?
 

Similar threads

dr wogz
Canada joining the 'Space Race'
Replies
2
Views
302
Blast it Tom!
Blast it Tom!
brockrwood
Take That, Air Canada. Hire Better Web Developers
Replies
1
Views
116
cerving
cerving
Sooner Boomer
EVENT Launch Sat. March 16, Sayre Airport, Tripoli Oklahoma
Replies
0
Views
111
Sooner Boomer
Sooner Boomer
cwbullet
Challenge #1: Menace
Replies
8
Views
338
cwbullet
cwbullet
James Lu
Help about launch time, February 24 Falcon 9 • Starlink 6-39
Replies
2
Views
106
James Lu
James Lu

Latest posts

Back
Top