AltusMetrum Launch system

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I think I read the whole thread but I kind of drifted in and out a couple of times.

Three questions:
1: Does the Altus Metrum have a removable safety key?

2: Does it have an arm/disarm switch at the pad and if so why?

3: Do you need a technician license to operate it legally?
 
jderimig said:
Why would you not suspect a stuck relay (the most common cause for failures like this)? Just because its wireless you jump to the less probable root cause? Where was the key fob when this happened? Somebody's pocket?
Click to expand...

I am used to relays used in conventional wired launch systems. I don't know the electrical specs of the system that was used. When tested later, the system operated correctly and the precise cause remains unknown.

The location of the Key Fob, as far as I have been told, was on the LCO table, behind the cameraman, not in anyone's hand or pocket. I was not present at the launch.
 
Ez2cDave said:
As I understand it, the "wireless system" used components designed to convert a car to electrically-powered door locks. One theory is that someone's "key fob" might have been on the same frequency and launched the rocket, inadvertently, while locking or unlocking their car. Hard proof was not obtainable at the scene.

After watching the video a few times, I believe that the unit might have gotten "stuck" and was transmitting continuously, since the motor fired immediately when the second igniter clip was attached. If it had not been a wireless system, I would have suspected a stuck relay or a defective launch button.

Amen on touching clips . . . I carry a cheap Harbor Freight meter, personally . . . https://www.harborfreight.com/7-function-digital-multimeter-63759.html

Dave F.
Click to expand...

1. Keyfobs don’t just transmit on a frequency; all current ones transmit unique codes that change every time the button is pushed. That’s why there’s a special procedure to pair the fob to the receiver. Unless it was a very cheap fob system the chance of someone else’s fob activating the launcher are simply not credible.
2. As John already said, a stuck relay is just as likely to be the problem as anything. That happens and experience teaches us to always touch leads together to check.
3. A meter is a good idea, but systems like the one I built for our club in 2002 always have a continuity current, so it’s important to know what to look for.
 
The "Armageddon Mode" issue was addressed.

Are there other possible issues? I would expect with as many Wilson systems in use and the number of launches now in the experience bank it is unlikely there are other issues lurking.

Altus Metrum stuff is well designed. Will there be issues identified by experience? Possibly.

Does a control system require more than just hooking up a battery and some wires? Yes.

Does a wireless system add some complication? Yes, but not that much if person designing the system actually knows what they are doing.

Are there mindless individual prejudices? Obviously.

Are there trolls who argue with everything? Yes.

Will facts offered by those who actually know what they are talking about change those two things? No.
 
JoeG said:
Three questions:
1: Does the Altus Metrum have a removable safety key?

2: Does it have an arm/disarm switch at the pad and if so why?

3: Do you need a technician license to operate it legally?
Click to expand...

1) Not now but it will. I joined their mailing list and pointed out this defect.
2) Yes. The switch is between the battery and igniter outputs. It mitigates some failure modes but not all. Why? It gives you a head start if something bad happens.
3) Yes. A licensee is responsible for its operation and their call sign must be programmed into the unit. It appears that it can be operated under the automatic station rules so that the licensee or another licensed individual doesn't have to be hovering nearby.
 
Wallace said:
While being informative I personally feel that is inappropriate. YouTube is the place for such..
Click to expand...
'

It is a YouTube video, linked to the Forum, totally permissible under the rules, without "personal feelings" being the Litmus Test ( if you don't like it, don't watch it ) . . . I have some "personal feelings", myself !
 
Ez2cDave said:
'

It is a YouTube video, linked to the Forum, totally permissible under the rules, without "personal feelings" being the Litmus Test ( if you don't like it, don't watch it ) . . . I have some "personal feelings", myself !
Click to expand...

I don’t think it belongs in this thread. It had nothing to do with the Altus Metrum unit. In fact it could even be used to justify systems which are designed with safety, security, and reliability in mind.
At the same time I think that people ought to understand the risk that is created when people design launch systems without understanding the risks or how to mitigate them.
There are people in Rocketry who do understand those risks and whom I would be comfortable trusting with such a design. Keith Packard and B’dale Garbee are two of them. There was one year when SLI was held on the Bonneville Salt Flats and Keith brought out a wireless launch controller. I suspect that this derives from that.
Whether it’s features will allow it to compete against the Wilson F/X system, which so far overwhelmingly commands the market, remains to be seen, but if it does, having more than one system on the market should benefit rocketry.
 
Cnorm said:
Guys, it doesn't matter how many facts you throw at him, ez2cdave made up his mind and he's not going to change it.

This thread has gone way off topic.

For those of us that have moved into the new millennium, the Altus launch looks interesting. How hard would it be to replace the lead acid battery with a lipo?
Click to expand...
This particular TRF user has a demonstrable track record of dragging down threads and veering off topic.

I for one DO NOT appreciate this constant haughty attitude.

Yes, Ez2cDave, i am referring to you.

I would like to hear about and discuss the Altus Metrum system. Not the WilsonFx system or any other home brew launch system.

PLEASE, keep non-germaine comments away. Start your own thread if you want.

--Lance.
 
"Each TeleFire box in the TeleLaunch system uses FET technology for lowest possible resistance paths, allowing maximum current to be reliably delivered from the power source to the igniter leads. TeleFire boards can be powered by any 10-15V supply, typically a 12V sealed lead acid battery."
 
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Depending on how far you want read into it without actually calling them, the use of the term "typically" certainly sounds like a suggestion to me. Although I'd never personally advocate going with a Lipo in lieu.
 
Thanks UhClem.

Nice catch on No. 1.

On No 2, I am not a big fan of arming switches at the pad and I will explain my reasoning. If there is a fried relay or the bank is armed (the big red light and the alarm going off should give some indication of that), shorting the clips will give a pretty good spark that can be seen and heard if there is power on and allow it to be addressed. Also attaching a meter or an ematch will let you know before you attach the clips to the ignitor whether you have an issue.
If you disconnect the power by pulling the battery leads, as some do, or with an arming switch, you have no idea if there is current to the pad until you throw that switch with the ignitor ready to do its thing with you standing twenty feet away. There would seem to be (to me at least) more of a chance of launching a rocket this way than leaving the power on.
Also I have seen many walks of shame when someone forgets to arm the bank at the pads when it can easily be done at the LCO table. Yes it's just an inconvenience but at BALLS with four to six M rockets on a bank at the 1500' pads it's a long break while someone walks out and hooks up the battery.

Number 3 can be a problem. We sometimes have small launches due to weather, family committments, etc. but mostly weather. This is Ohio!! and we do not always have a licensed technician on site.

I do wish them good luck with their system. I am sure it's high uality and trustworthy judging by their other products.

UhClem said:
1) Not now but it will. I joined their mailing list and pointed out this defect.
2) Yes. The switch is between the battery and igniter outputs. It mitigates some failure modes but not all. Why? It gives you a head start if something bad happens.
3) Yes. A licensee is responsible for its operation and their call sign must be programmed into the unit. It appears that it can be operated under the automatic station rules so that the licensee or another licensed individual doesn't have to be hovering nearby.
Click to expand...
I am in awe of all the "stuff" that gets conceptualized and actually built and marketed for our hobby that is by no means large compared to most others.
 
Ez2cDave said:
I'm concerned about safety at the pad, while hooking up igniters, whether caused by an electronic glitch, spurious RF, or component failure.
Click to expand...
I have a pre-release system and it's been working great. As to your pad safety concern, the pad box has an igniter power disconnect and indicators to let you know if the console at the LCO is in the armed position. I don't know of a wired system that offers both those safety features. The pre-production models have an arming key, I don't know why they would have deleted that feature.
 
Last edited:
Wallace said:
"Each TeleFire box in the TeleLaunch system uses FET technology for lowest possible resistance paths, allowing maximum current to be reliably delivered from the power source to the igniter leads. TeleFire boards can be powered by any 10-15V supply, typically a 12V sealed lead acid battery."
Click to expand...

Wallace said:
Depending on how far you want read into it without actually calling them, the use of the term "typically" certainly sounds like a suggestion to me. Although I'd never personally advocate going with a Lipo in lieu.
Click to expand...

There are a variety of other options. Wet cell batteries like car batteries, deep cycle, or motorcycle batteries could be used.
There are several newer options popular for emergency and off-grid use among hams, especially AGM batteries. "Absorbent Glass Mat" batteries give a better power density at about the same price.
 
JoeG,
I think you are missing the point of the safe/arm switch at the pad. Inconvenience is no excuse for a process that is not robust against mistakes/failures. If you have a meter/ematch etc. you can hook it up, arm the pad, see that there is no signal, disarm the pad [so the LCO can't press the button on you - yes it can happen], connect your rocket, and re-arm the pad from somewhere farther than right at the rocket nozzle. This readily protects you from both a stuck relay [plus other electrical failures] and from [to a point] a mistake at the LCO table. Without the safe/arm switch you [if you spark test] are only protecting yourself from a fully stuck relay as it does not assure safety for other electrical failure modes, and specifically not from LCO errors.

If people forget to arm the pad, they may not be giving safety their full attention, and they should. A checklist is a nice way to remember important things. In my experience the LCO moves on to the pads that are actually ready and people get to go out after and address whatever.

br/

Tony
 
llickteig1 said:
This particular TRF user has a demonstrable track record of dragging down threads and veering off topic.

I for one DO NOT appreciate this constant haughty attitude.

Yes, Ez2cDave, i am referring to you.

I would like to hear about and discuss the Altus Metrum system. Not the WilsonFx system or any other home brew launch system.

PLEASE, keep non-germaine comments away. Start your own thread if you want.

--Lance.
Click to expand...

The Ignore option is a wonderful tool for this forum. I added a new user to it yesterday after reading this thread. It really makes browsing more enjoyable. Not quite as satisfying as a slap to the face, but a good online equivalent. :D
 
TonyL said:
JoeG,
I think you are missing the point of the safe/arm switch at the pad. Inconvenience is no excuse for a process that is not robust against mistakes/failures. If you have a meter/ematch etc. you can hook it up, arm the pad, see that there is no signal, disarm the pad [so the LCO can't press the button on you - yes it can happen], connect your rocket, and re-arm the pad from somewhere farther than right at the rocket nozzle. This readily protects you from both a stuck relay [plus other electrical failures] and from [to a point] a mistake at the LCO table. Without the safe/arm switch you [if you spark test] are only protecting yourself from a fully stuck relay as it does not assure safety for other electrical failure modes, and specifically not from LCO errors.

If people forget to arm the pad, they may not be giving safety their full attention, and they should. A checklist is a nice way to remember important things. In my experience the LCO moves on to the pads that are actually ready and people get to go out after and address whatever.

br/

Tony
Click to expand...

I believe I made it clear that inconvenience was not my main point and was just offering an opinion. You seem to be defending a position. That's fine. I understand the point of the disarming switch. I just do not think it is necessary.

Often, if people are not at their home field, they are not familiar with the launch system of the day so it may or may not be used.

I still think my way is at least just as safe. You check for signal, if none, you connect the igniter immediately, since it is the last thing you do, and walk away.

In your scenario checking signal, disarming, walking back to the pad, hooking up, and then walking back to arm the pad or bank of pads just gives the LCO, whom you don't seem to trust very much, more time between the check and the actual connecting of the igniter to screw up.

I realize both of these are popular ways to build launch systems and both work. Would either configuration keep me from buying a system? Probably not. Just offering my preference.
 
Well, then . . .

What makes the Altus Metrum system worth the expense, compared to other commercially-produced wireless launch systems ?

Take a 64-pad system, for example.
 
farsidius said:
The Ignore option is a wonderful tool for this forum. I added a new user to it yesterday after reading this thread. It really makes browsing more enjoyable. Not quite as satisfying as a slap to the face, but a good online equivalent. :D
Click to expand...

Of course, if one does that, he never knows what a blocked person might be saying about him, behind his back. I block no one, for that very reason ( "keep your friends close and your enemies closer" ).
 
UhClem said:
...
3) Yes. A licensee is responsible for its operation and their call sign must be programmed into the unit. It appears that it can be operated under the automatic station rules so that the licensee or another licensed individual doesn't have to be hovering nearby.
Click to expand...

I don't see how this would fall under the definition of an automatic station. You need a designated control operator during use in any case.
If the rocket club has a club call sign, that can be programmed into the system and the trustee can designate control operators to monitor and oversee operation.
 

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Ez2cDave said:
Of course, if one does that, he never knows what a blocked person might be saying about him, behind his back. I block no one, for that very reason ( "keep your friends close and your enemies closer" ).
Click to expand...
Great system you've got there. Carry on...
 
Ez2cDave said:
Well, then . . .

What makes the Altus Metrum system worth the expense, compared to other commercially-produced wireless launch systems ?

Take a 64-pad system, for example.
Click to expand...

You just burned half a thread making a case against wireless systems and said you'd never trust one. Why are you pretending to care about the cost of the Altus now?
 
Cnorm said:
You just burned half a thread making a case against wireless systems and said you'd never trust one. Why are you pretending to care about the cost of the Altus now?
Click to expand...

It doesn't have an "Armageddon Mode" in a single pad controller . . . I am "caring" about what makes it better than other competing systems and justifies the relative expense.

I never said that my trust could not be "earned", but I do have legitimate concerns to address, beforehand.
 
DaveW6DPS said:
I don't see how this would fall under the definition of an automatic station. You need a designated control operator during use in any case.
If the rocket club has a club call sign, that can be programmed into the system and the trustee can designate control operators to monitor and oversee operation.
Click to expand...
Control operators must also be licensed (97.7) so that doesn't help much.

It would appear to be just as much an automatic station (97.221) as an APRS system on a high altitude balloon.
 
So let's see if I've got this right, a 64 pad TeleLaunch system will cost $5800 from Altus Metrum, one TeleLaunch and 8 TeleFireEight units. But you will still need to add the costs of the igniter leads which do not come with the system. So let's see, a 25' extension cord will cost $9.97 at a big box store so you need 64 of them, that's an additional $638 and change. Then you need to add at least another 6' of #16 zip cord with 16/2 male connector on one end to each of those 25' ext cords, so that's another $120. Then you have to add 128 alligator clips. They cost about $0.22 when you buy more than 100 of them at a time (from Digikey). So $0.22 x 128 = $28.16 plus shipping.

So we've got:
$5200 for 8x TeleFireEight units
$ 600 for one TeleLaunch unit
$ 638 for 64x 25' extension cords
$ 120 for 64x 6' 16/2 extension cords with male end
$ 28 for igniter clips .
so for a sub total you've got $6586

Just figuring out the costs as somebody wanted to know how much a 64 pad system would cost.
Brad
 
RocketRev said:
So let's see if I've got this right, a 64 pad TeleLaunch system will cost $5800 from Altus Metrum, one TeleLaunch and 8 TeleFireEight units. But you will still need to add the costs of the igniter leads which do not come with the system. So let's see, a 25' extension cord will cost $9.97 at a big box store so you need 64 of them, that's an additional $638 and change. Then you need to add at least another 6' of #16 zip cord with 16/2 male connector on one end to each of those 25' ext cords, so that's another $120. Then you have to add 128 alligator clips. They cost about $0.22 when you buy more than 100 of them at a time (from Digikey). So $0.22 x 128 = $28.16 plus shipping.

So we've got:
$5200 for 8x TeleFireEight units
$ 600 for one TeleLaunch unit
$ 638 for 64x 25' extension cords
$ 120 for 64x 6' 16/2 extension cords with male end
$ 28 for igniter clips .
so for a sub total you've got $6586

Just figuring out the costs as somebody wanted to know how much a 64 pad system would cost.
Brad
Click to expand...
While your at it Brad, do the same cost break down for your system the Wilson F/X with 64 pads please.
 
DaveW6DPS said:
I don't see how this would fall under the definition of an automatic station. You need a designated control operator during use in any case.
If the rocket club has a club call sign, that can be programmed into the system and the trustee can designate control operators to monitor and oversee operation.
Click to expand...

I agree. There has to be a licensed operator in control of the station. One might make the argument that the pad boxes might be automatic stations, but the control point must be under a licensed amateur.
Additionally, I am not exactly certain which frequencies are being used but I thought there are some restrictions based on the type of transmission as well as geographic location.
 
Ez2cDave said:
It doesn't have an "Armageddon Mode" in a single pad controller . . . I am "caring" about what makes it better than other competing systems and justifies the relative expense.

I never said that my trust could not be "earned", but I do have legitimate concerns to address, beforehand.
Click to expand...
===========================================================================================================

So the reason that you trust the Altus Metrum System is that it doesn't have an Armageddon Switch? Seems rather a strange reason to "trust" something.

And you apparently didn't read thru the whole thread about the Armageddon Switch. It no longer even exists in a single-pad controller. There is no individual out there who has one. What is there to fear? So if what you fear no longer exists as of 4 years ago, then what makes this system more trustworthy than a system that is just as trustworthy?

As the old saying goes, "There's nothing to fear except fear itself."

If you can't bring yourself to trust a wireless system because of some Chinese fob controlled wireless system that malfunctioned, then you really need to get some experience with a commercial high power rocket wireless launch system actually made for flying rockets safely. There are a couple on the market. The guys at Altus Metrum makes the TeleLaunch system. And, uh...… there are others available as well.

Brad
 
UhClem said:
Control operators must also be licensed (97.7) so that doesn't help much.

It would appear to be just as much an automatic station (97.221) as an APRS system on a high altitude balloon.
Click to expand...

APRS tracker on high altitude balloons do have control operators, as do APRS systems on rockets.

The idea that you just put a callsign in and then the club can use the system without the person that callsign is assigned to, or their licensed designee, being present is not appropriate.
 

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