Big Daddy Lawn Darts... Show of Hands Please.

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1 time, but the nose cone had nothing to do with it. Had an Estes black powder E motor in it. The ejection charge never fired, and it came straight down.
Happened about 4 years ago.......
I built another one, no problems!
I recently found the nose cone for the first one in my shop, called Sandra at Estes, and the darling sent me a new body tube!! I made up the parts for the motor mount and the fins and I’m gonna rebuild it!!
 
jnobels said:
I’ve had this happen twice now with slightly generous delays. My theory is that when the rocket arcs over, the bp falls away from the delay charge and with no contact, doesn’t light - or lights very late and/or randomly. The hole to the delay charge gets a little crufty over time and can keep then powder from settling down properly.

I will be filling that forward empty space above the BP with wadding from now on and making sure there is good contact with the delay grain.
Click to expand...
That has been my practice since I started using reloadable motors. It always seemed like an accident waiting to happen otherwise.
 
John Beans said:
It's been said before, but I think the big ramp on the nosecone base around the tether point is a mistake, because the nosecone can vent the ejection charge after just a little bit of travel.
Coupled with the fact that there's not a *huge* amount of length to the fuselage to put parachute in, I'd advise cutting off the nose cone base right where the angle starts and replace it with a bulkhead and an eyebolt.
for extra chute space, mount the bulkhead up inside the nosecone a ways.
Click to expand...

I've had a BD build in progress for quite a few years. I read about suspected nose cone problems and modified mine exactly as you describe. I cut a bulkhead and sanded it to fit in the inner diameter of the cone right above the shoulder, once in place it can't pull out the back.
 
Heart breaker. "Someone" used the wrong spacer. CMASS launch. This is the first time I looked at it to see what happen. I threw it my box after it happened and never looked back.
 

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Scotty Dog said:
Heart breaker. "Someone" used the wrong spacer. CMASS launch. This is the first time I looked at it to see what happen. I threw it my box after it happened and never looked back.
Click to expand...

I accidentally did this exact same thing a couple of weeks back. I have a old "D" BigDaddy and the new "E" model. Not thinking, i grabbed the newer "E" model and stuck a D12-3 in it and prepped it for launch. The flight went perfect with no issues. I didn't notice my mistake until I tried to remove the motor and it was stuck well up into the motor tube.... Oh well. No harm done but lesson learned.
 
jnobels said:
I’ve had this happen twice now with slightly generous delays. My theory is that when the rocket arcs over, the bp falls away from the delay charge and with no contact, doesn’t light - or lights very late and/or randomly. The hole to the delay charge gets a little crufty over time and can keep then powder from settling down properly.

I will be filling that forward empty space above the BP with wadding from now on and making sure there is good contact with the delay grain.
Click to expand...

Couple thoughts on this. With the RMS 18/20, 24/40, 24/60, and 29-40-120, you want to make sure you "Tap the motor" once you put the ejection cap on. There is a large space in the inner area the delay o-ring that needs to be filled with BP. Taping the motor will allow the entire area to fill up. Once all of this powder ignites, the fire will shoot up into the red cap and ignite the powder in the red cap.

I think the biggest culprit of the ejection charge not going off is grease. Never ever EVER grease the delay o-ring. There is really no reason to since the o-ring just sits in the well so its not difficult to place ink or remove. Problem is the grease can contaminate the black powder. This is especially true if the motor get's warm between the time of loading and actually firing. (ie, the rocket is sitting out in the sun). With RMS+ Delay designs, i don't grease the delay washer and the delay o-ring. Instead I apply a lite grease film on the edge of the delay well facilitate installing the delay assembly in the well. Being very careful not to get grease on the delay element or anywhere where BP will make contact.

It's interesting to not how difficult it can be to get a delay grain to ignite the ejection charge. One would not think this is the case, but I have learned that with re-loadable motors which have small touch hole and small surface areas where the powder touches the delay element (thinking Kosdon/AMW forward closures) can results in ejection failures. I started increasing the surface area by simply drilling out a little valley to allow the powder to settle in a small pit. Have not had any issues with ejection not going off in those types of motors since I started doing that.

Back OT, I once pranged a Big Daddy. Was much younger, and I decided to try a C6-3. Didn't work to well.
 
Another one reported over on FB... The launch was even filmed....


Video Credit: Jon Rich
 
Because I am getting tired of seeing theory of Big Daddy Nose Cone design issues I am going to post the statement from Steve Kristal on the NAR FB page:

Steve Kristal,
I just asked Matt Steele who designed the kit. He flew that same nosecone on North Coast kits for years prior to the Big Daddy, and then for the last 22 years on the Big Daddy. He also flies a 2.6" cone just like it on his current kits. Ejection failure has never been a bigger issue on that nosecone than any other. Estes is crazy about safety. If that particular nosecone was an issue it would have been dealt with many many years ago. The urban legend on TRF is just completely unsubstantiated. You can find threads on TRF where people talk about modifying the cone but you're not seeing reports of numerous lawn darts. You are also not seeing them on Ye Olde. You don't see them on 20 years of flight logs (currently406 of them) on RocketReviews. And you don't see reports here. The Big Daddy nosecone is no more prone to failure to eject than any other cone.

My theory instead is this:
That the Big Daddy has a relatively large-ish volume to pressurize with enough gas to reach nose cone ejection pressures (compared to most other Estes Models) that in the event of a too snug nosecone fit it may not have enough gas to pressurize that volume sufficiently to pop the nosecone off, OR if there is an anemic ejection charge in a stock motor (not usually an issue in reloadables as its easy to add more powder and not too common afaik with Estes motors), and the few BD lawndarts I have seen have been with Estes D12 motors. That being said I have seen MANY Big Daddies flown with no issues and each time I hear about one here on TRF or elsewhere its quite often simultaneously posted to several other social media pages at the same time for example I have now seen one incident posted by the original flier on the Estes FB page iirc, it has since been posted here on TRF, the NAR FB page, and the Tripoli FB page.

My opinion is that due to this constant referencing of a few incidents then spreading them across multiple social networking pages awareness is being blown up over a few incidents. However there are A LOT of Big Daddies out there being flown and its not unusual to see a few less than optimal recoveries, I personally own 4 Big Daddies and fly them, one has even had two less than optimal recoveries (I do know/suspect the reasons for both). We are also a small community so the word gets around about a single incident (there are obviously more than one incident here, just sayin'). The Big Daddy is a great kit and an awesome flier, just like any other rocket the flier needs to pay close attention to prepping for recovery, I will continue to fly my Bid Daddies and don't give a damn about something I believe is on the flier and not the design of the kit. Do people actually believe that Estes would intentionally release a kit that had known issues, what happened to the ones that did...say like the old X-15 kit? Nuff Said.
 
Well. I had one lawn dart happen to me 3 weeks ago. Crimped so much of the tube, I had to salvage parts and order a whole new tube. I am scrapping the name and going to call it the sky torpedo. It was with a D12-5 motor. I think I should sand the shoulder down a tad bit :)
 
rharshberger said:
Because I am getting tired of seeing theory of Big Daddy Nose Cone design issues I am going to post the statement from Steve Kristal on the NAR FB page:

Steve Kristal,
I just asked Matt Steele who designed the kit. He flew that same nosecone on North Coast kits for years prior to the Big Daddy, and then for the last 22 years on the Big Daddy. He also flies a 2.6" cone just like it on his current kits. Ejection failure has never been a bigger issue on that nosecone than any other. Estes is crazy about safety. If that particular nosecone was an issue it would have been dealt with many many years ago. The urban legend on TRF is just completely unsubstantiated. You can find threads on TRF where people talk about modifying the cone but you're not seeing reports of numerous lawn darts. You are also not seeing them on Ye Olde. You don't see them on 20 years of flight logs (currently406 of them) on RocketReviews. And you don't see reports here. The Big Daddy nosecone is no more prone to failure to eject than any other cone.

My theory instead is this:
That the Big Daddy has a relatively large-ish volume to pressurize with enough gas to reach nose cone ejection pressures (compared to most other Estes Models) that in the event of a too snug nosecone fit it may not have enough gas to pressurize that volume sufficiently to pop the nosecone off, OR if there is an anemic ejection charge in a stock motor (not usually an issue in reloadables as its easy to add more powder and not too common afaik with Estes motors), and the few BD lawndarts I have seen have been with Estes D12 motors. That being said I have seen MANY Big Daddies flown with no issues and each time I hear about one here on TRF or elsewhere its quite often simultaneously posted to several other social media pages at the same time for example I have now seen one incident posted by the original flier on the Estes FB page iirc, it has since been posted here on TRF, the NAR FB page, and the Tripoli FB page.

My opinion is that due to this constant referencing of a few incidents then spreading them across multiple social networking pages awareness is being blown up over a few incidents. However there are A LOT of Big Daddies out there being flown and its not unusual to see a few less than optimal recoveries, I personally own 4 Big Daddies and fly them, one has even had two less than optimal recoveries (I do know/suspect the reasons for both). We are also a small community so the word gets around about a single incident (there are obviously more than one incident here, just sayin'). The Big Daddy is a great kit and an awesome flier, just like any other rocket the flier needs to pay close attention to prepping for recovery, I will continue to fly my Bid Daddies and don't give a damn about something I believe is on the flier and not the design of the kit. Do people actually believe that Estes would intentionally release a kit that had known issues, what happened to the ones that did...say like the old X-15 kit? Nuff Said.
Click to expand...

To this I reply:

Thus there is some kind of inherit flaw in the design of the kit.

There's is no way to predict "weak/anemic" ejection charges. That said, however, I don't hear nearly as much about any other kit, including kits that use the same nosecone having the level of problem that this kit seems to have.

Here's a thing to think about... The volume of the BD's body tube alone, less the space taken by the engine mount (~4") is 42.41 cubic inches (1.5" x 1.5" x Pi. x 6") And this rocket can fly on a D12-5.

The volume of a Mean Machine's body tubes alone is 111.89 cubic inches (less the motor mount's length of ~4")(.7975" x .7975" x Pi x 56"). It too can fly on a D12-5.

I don't know the volume of the nosecone for the BD or the Mean Machine, but I doubt that the BDs volume is nearly 70 cubic inches. And yet we don't hear many (or any to my knowledge) Mean Machine's lawn darting, or coming in w/o parachute deployment. If the issue was volume alone, shouldn't the larger volume of the Mean Machine cause it to also have a similar (if not worse) problem?

Now, if someone has a BD nosecone that hasn't been modified, and could fill it with water to the line where the it meets the body tube, then measure the volume of water, we could get easily get the volume of that. However, it's nearly 3:30am here in China, My BD's nosecone is tucked away, and I'm about to call it a night.
 
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K'Tesh said:
To this I reply:

Thus there is some kind of inherit flaw in the design of the kit.

There's is no way to predict "weak/anemic" ejection charges. That said, however, I don't hear nearly as much about any other kit, including kits that use the same nosecone having the level of problem that this kit seems to have.

Here's a thing to think about... The volume of the BD's body tube alone, less the space taken by the engine mount (~4") is 42.41 cubic inches (1.5" x 1.5" x Pi. x 6") And this rocket can fly on a D12-5.

The volume of a Mean Machine's body tubes alone is 111.89 cubic inches (less the motor mount's length of ~4")(.7975" x .7975" x Pi x 56"). It too can fly on a D12-5.

I don't know the volume of the nosecone for the BD or the Mean Machine, but I doubt that the BDs volume is nearly 70 cubic inches. And yet we don't hear many (or any to my knowledge) Mean Machine's lawn darting, or coming in w/o parachute deployment. If the issue was volume alone, shouldn't the larger volume of the Mean Machine cause it to also have a similar (if not worse) problem?
Click to expand...
I'll blame myself for my lawndart :)
 
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That's no lightning bolt, that is a Harry Potter scar running the length of the body tube.


You just can't be mad after launching rockets, they are just paper, and easy to fix :)
 
CKaul04 said:
Well. I had one lawn dart happen to me 3 weeks ago. Crimped so much of the tube, I had to salvage parts and order a whole new tube. I am scrapping the name and going to call it the sky torpedo. It was with a D12-5 motor. I think I should sand the shoulder down a tad bit :)
Click to expand...

CKaul04 said:
I'll blame myself for my lawndart :)
Click to expand...

So, you're saying you've got... Daddy issues?
 
samb said:
I used to own up myself but now I just blame K'Tesh for all my lawndarts! Krazy Klingon. ;):po_O
Click to expand...

I hope everyone here knows, I want to protect the hobby. I want to be able to return home to the US, and find that there are places that are inside communities where I can take my LPR rockets and launch them, when I want, and where I want (within reason). My fear with the Big Daddy is that it has a design flaw that could get someone hurt, or could damage something worse than just the rocket. Our safety record is pretty good. In over 50 years, nobody who built and launched a rocket properly has died (Yes, I do remember the Scout leader who was killed, but that was not a proper launch... Was it?). I've personally witnessed a rocket land between the feet of a boy who was not hit by the rocket, only because he fell down backwards just before it hit. That rocket (a Nova Payloader) stuck in the ground 4". What if he hadn't fell backwards, and it impacted him while he was looking up? Say... In the eye socket. Would that be enough to have killed him? Now that rocket was sabotaged by its builder, Kevin Kelso*. The only reason it flew was that our teacher didn't do a full safety check on the rocket (a mistake he likely never repeated). I'm always watching for people who say to us "I've had a rocket lawn dart", and it seems that more often than not it's the Big Daddy that was the rocket involved.

I don't trust this rocket if it hasn't been modified. I'm worried that it will get someone hurt, and then the entire hobby will be hurt because of it. If I were ever trusted to be a RSO at any launch you can be certain that I'd be looking long and hard at unmodified BDs. I also would be checking all the LPR builds just in case Kevin Kelso has been reincarnated.

*Kevin was killed falling out of the back of a pickup truck as his buddies were driving around. He was standing when they took a corner too sharp for him to hold on, and he landed on his head. He waived off a trip to the hospital, and went home. Later, he was apparently experiencing a serious headache, and taken to the hospital anyway. He died from a broken blood vessel in the brain.
 
That's sad. I hate when my rockets lawn dart. My heart skips a beat when that happens. Though I am not modifying them, I have had four lawn darts total(I was like 12 and I had 3 in a row happen. I've done some stupid stuff[ignorant] and it made me almost quit the hobby. If you want to know how dumb I was, let's just say Visco fuse in questionable stuff. Though, I had tried to launch with the Estes Astron controller[what a POS]. I had done just about everything that [almost] violates NAR and TRA regulations{unintentionally}. I have had a hot glue building era, with a few good burns, the all-around super glue era, and other stupid things. I am surprised I did not win a Darwin award. I have learned from a very good L2 mentor and now am awaiting my L1 {JR} Loc Semper Fi Kit.)
Don't be like how I was at first. Here is my quote, "Life doesn't have a rearview mirror, so don't get caught looking back for too long!"

Colin

P.S. I know, there were some blatantly stupid things I did and want to tell any NAR or TRA officers reader I'm sorry and this was from a friend ;)
 
I was the idiot, y'all hated. I am sorry for how I disgraced the sport.
Bottom Line, I'm glad no one was hurt, and it was my fault.
 
Personally Jim I think your OCD (you said it in the past) is going a bit overboard on this, personally I know of ZERO clubs that will not allow a built as stock Big Daddy to fly. As for the RSO, stock as built Big Daddies rarely see the flight safety check table as they are LPR. TriCities Rocketeers only "RSO's" HPR's, F and G rockets are simply checked to ensure igniters are not inserted in the motors. We had a Big Daddy contest last year at SodBlaster with HPR and LPR versions probably better than 50 flights with zero BD recovery issues. Until its actually proven that the cause of Big Daddy issues is the nose cone design, I will stand behind my argument that the majority of Big Daddy failures to eject are user error. I'm done on this subject.
 
K'Tesh said:
I hope everyone here knows, I want to protect the hobby. I want to be able to return home to the US, and find that there are places that are inside communities where I can take my LPR rockets and launch them, when I want, and where I want (within reason)...
Click to expand...
This I know from our virtual interactions over the years, K'Tesh will not be moved ! Believe what you want and act on it as you see fit. Encourage the nose cone modification. As I believe that the RSO is god-emperor of the launch, scrutinize what you will, just don't let anyone know what vehicle you're driving. ;) I would ask you to refrain from banging the recall drum and I will TRY to refrain from calling you the Krazy Klingon. :)

[edit] Has any club admitted to a Big Daddy ban ?
 
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samb said:
This I know from our virtual interactions over the years, K'Tesh will not be moved ! Believe what you want and act on it as you see fit. Encourage the nose cone modification. As I believe that the RSO is god-emperor of the launch, scrutinize what you will, just don't let anyone know what vehicle you're driving. ;) I would ask you to refrain from banging the recall drum and I will TRY to refrain from calling you the Krazy Klingon. :)

[edit] Has any club admitted to a Big Daddy ban ?
Click to expand...
I don't know about the recall drum... but to answer your question, I haven't rediscovered the source of where I think I heard it yet, and no club has yet confessed that it was them that did it.
 
Mine did it in 2001, a week before the 9/11 attacks. It was at a QUARK launch, the only one I'd ever attend at Miami Meadows Park in Milford. We were launching backed up to the trees with a huge lawn in between us and the parking area. It was the standard D-12 flight, straight up, straight down, but out in the field toward the parking area. It looked like it was going to skewer the Mazda that belonged to the guy I was launching next to, (and whom I never saw again after that.) His only comment was "That would have been awesome!" I've had it out at home lately, trying to decide if I want to cut off the smooshed portion of the body tube or just fly it as it is. Whatever the case, I'm definitely making the mod to flatten out the butt end of the nose cone, just in case that's the problem area.
 
Yesterday - first launch of my custom Big Daddy, modified nosecone and all. I'd cut off the bottom portion of the nosecone, leaving just the shoulder - had put a centering ring epoxied above the shoulder inside the cone with a bulkhead and eye bolt attached for recovery. APRA altimeter in the nose cone and about 2oz of weight in the tip to get a stability of 1.25cal with motor installed. total rocket weight about 8.5oz with engine installed.
Problem? launched on one of the "recommended" D12-5's.... OpenRocket showed optimal delay of 3.5seconds, I had 5 seconds. Should've known better. Real motor ended up being about a 6 second delay.

Pictured below is the moment when your recovery gear deploys about 20' from the ground strike.... !

THANK GOODNESS it deployed just at the last second though to keep my lawn dart from being a total loss, it just barely saved enough time for the rocket to separate, and save the nose from going through the whole body.
Nose was about 3" in the ground, body tube a little dinged up, but re-usable. Luckily I hadn't clear coated it yet, so I can touch up the paint!

Unfortunately after the 1st impact, my APRA altimeter needed some JB weld fixing on a broken battery holder, and my altimeter sled in the nose cone needs a little "reattaching", so I was not able to use the altimeter on the 2nd flight.

Launched it on a E12-4 on the next flight - went flawlessly!

Nose cone went from needing a little tape to get a good fit - to no tape needed anymore :rolleyes:

Screenshot_20200416-103053_Video Player.jpg


Resized_20200408_185544.jpeg
 
OC-Patrick said:
cool paint job on the Nebula, how did you do that?
Click to expand...

Thanks!
I sprayed the whole rocket in a base coat of black, and then sponge painted with some acrylic paints - blue and purple (primarily), a little magenta/pink, and white. Blue and purple were Createx acrylic pearlescent paints, so once it's clear coated it should have a cool look. The magenta and white were just off-the-shelf cheapo acrylics. Used a natural sea sponge. For the stars I watered down some white and used a stiff paint brush to "splatter" the stars on. Over the sink of course :)
Got the custom decal through Stickershock23.

Here's a link to a YouTube tutorial that gave me some inspiration:

 

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