Inclusion

It’s obvious that you just don’t understand. Growth alone isn’t the only measure of success. Nor does it take overt efforts to discourage people from joining. All it takes is the occasional off color joke or racially or gender insensitive comment to make someone feel uncomfortable bringing their grandchild or neighbor kid.
For example, how often have you said something like “That’s so gay” intended to be humorous. What message does that send to someone who hears your comment and who is gay or has a gay friend or child?
The fact that you don’t see or understand the problem is an unfortunate example of the very problem.

jlabrasca said:

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And 18% African?. Somewhere in South Africa, right now, there is almost certainly a family of pink-skinned, light eyed, straight-haired people with a detectable and possibly unique genetic mutation that first occurred after one of their ancestors arrived in Cape Town from Europe or the British Isles. Does that count as "African DNA"?
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If you go back far enough in human history we're all Africans.

jlabrasca said:

That is such a strangely specific breakdown for the "Irish" part, and so vague on the rest. What are the confidence intervals on those numbers? And what do they even mean?

How many generations back did the markers for "Irish" diverge from the markers for "Scot" from the markers for "Welsh". Does "Northern Europe" lump Sami in with Scandinavian in with Basque? How do you figure an Identical Common Ancestors date for a region populated by people who's arrivals in that region were separated by thousands of years?

And 18% African?. Somewhere in South Africa, right now, there is almost certainly a family of pink-skinned, light eyed, straight-haired people with a detectable and possibly unique genetic mutation that first occurred after one of their ancestors arrived in Cape Town from Europe or the British Isles. Does that count as "African DNA"?

In any event, I would argue strongly against using 23 and Me results to satisfy the quotas that no one is arguing should be imposed on rocketry club memberships. Its a funny idea, though. "See, we're not all old white men! Some of us are as much as 20% African, which closely resembles the fractional African American population in our region. Check that one off the list. Plus which, most of us have at least one X chromosome -- which means the club is actually almost half women. Done and done!"

edit: types...i men typos...i mean typos.

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If Nathan feels 18% African, even if he's not...

Who are you to question it...

Isn't that where we're at as a society now...

Steve Shannon said:

It’s obvious that you just don’t understand. Growth alone isn’t the only measure of success. Nor does it take overt efforts to discourage people from joining. All it takes is the occasional off color joke or racially or gender insensitive comment to make someone feel uncomfortable bringing their grandchild or neighbor kid.
For example, how often have you said something like “That’s so gay” intended to be humorous. What message does that send to someone who hears your comment and who is gay or has a gay friend or child?
The fact that you don’t see or understand the problem is an unfortunate example of the very problem.

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And just think how my Aunt Gay (her given name in the 1930's) thinks about the disruption of Gay from meaning happiness and such to what the current adopted meaning means.

BigRiJoe said:

Last time I checked, NAR membership was at a record level. Either you're interested in the hobby or your not. Please give me examples where clubs or individuals have purposely discouraged a minority or a woman who was "gung ho " to build and fly model rockets.

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As a helper at one of the largest launches in the country I overheard someone drop the N word in it's original derogatory context and meaning, with full intent.

To my everlasting shame I didn't immediately shut them down, but if that ever happens again I've resolved to ask them to come back when they're fit for polite society.

So that's an anecdote about how even some of the greatest launches run by the best people can be downright hostile, even in the presence of someone who tries to be an ally.

YMMV.

Some people are just hostile. They can't be nice and complain about everything.

We had a group that used to attend but they complained about how the club was run.

KidRockET said:

If Nathan feels 18% African, even if he's not...

Who are you to question it...

Isn't that where we're at as a society now...

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For supporting documentation, here is my Ancestry DNA test results:


I believe this to be pretty accurate because both of my grandparents on my father's side were mixed race. Being mixed race, my father had to deal with a lot of racism back in the days of segregation. But that didn't stop him from earning a PhD and becoming a successful neuropharmacologist. And my parents had to elope when they got married in the 50's because her family didn't approve, even though he was an honors grad student at the time. I'm glad I didn't live back then.

KidRockET said:

If Nathan feels 18% African, even if he's not...
Who are you to question it...
Isn't that where we're at as a society now...

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+1 on you not getting it.
In case you are wondering, your tag line of "IT'S OKAY TO BE WHITE" is in extremely poor taste. It manages to be condescending to everyone, regardless of one's racial background.

And Yes, that is where we're at as a society now!
I figured you should now, in case you desire to fit in.

a
P.S.: Otherwise - I've been thoroughly amazed at the thoughtfulness and civility demonstrated in this thread. A bunch of posts were full-on inspirational - bravo!
P.P.S.: +1 on love for H178DM.

Why does race have to be a factor in all conversation anymore? The best way to fix it is, quit talking about it. Either you could be potentially interested in rocketry or not. Stop it with the old white men, privileged, not privileged, minority BS... Try and get any and everyone involved, worry about whatever dumb flags they may or may not fly later!!

Tbmx3 said:

The best way to fix it is, quit talking about it.

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This is what I've been getting at for years. Can't imagine what the reaction would be if it wasn't Morgan Freeman who said that and it was someone like Ben Shapiro. People would have freaked out and you know it. There is this idea that if you're white any statement from you on race is less valid than someone of a different skin color. I'd rather judge statements and ideas on their merits alone rather than the color of the skin of those that said it. I'm starting to see some of this nonsense here. I feel like, especially in this thread, that because I am white I can make no useful contribution in the discussion of race...I see that happen elsewhere and then everyone wonders, "gee why do discussions on race constantly break down in this country?" Duh.

That's the mentality of inclusion as I see it. Rather than just rely on our innocuous welcoming behavior to attract new members we are going to try and force this multicultural blend. And for who? For what? No one has really given a decent and fact based reason for doing so other than, "we should." Look, if there is a club that is unwelcoming to any race or creed I will fight that club tooth and nail and do what I can to distance the rest of the hobby from such idiocy.

I've said this before and I'll say it again. I am going to welcome every single person I meet the same way. If the people I welcome to launches can't get past the fact that it's mostly white guys then that's on them. Not me. They have racist issues THEY need to work through. Not me. Bringing a more racially diverse audience to a launch may make these individuals more comfortable but it is not going to fix their racist issues.

And you know whats funny? In all the ND teams I have mentored, we get a real mix of latinos, african americans, women, men..hell even a transgender once. Not once in the seven years I have befriended all of these kiddos have they complained about the mostly white nature of our club. They look past that and just think rocketry is the coolest thing ever. We could learn a lot from that mentality.

DAllen said:

Rather than just rely on our innocuous welcoming behavior to attract new members we are going to try and force this multicultural blend.

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Who is talking about forcing anything?

Golf has a similar situation. Even after almost 20 years of Tiger Woods, golf attracts almost no minorities. The PGA Tour is almost entirely white guys. I guess it's just a cultural thing.

I fully agree that we need to be open to all people. And it would be great if all people would also be open to me and all others. It does need to be a two way street. Unfortunately I have run into some people that were totally biased against all white men - by definition we are "bad".

Another issue is a person cannot conform to every other society, as different societies have different and at time conflicting norms. In some cultures, it is considered rude to show up late while others consider it rude if you show up on time.
Hey - have a great rocket or a great flight? Thumbs up! Whoops - in various cultures a thumb up is the equivalent to the middle finger salute.
Don't laugh out loud - showing them pearly whites is rude and a turn off to some cultures
Don't come to a launch wearing sweat pants or a baseball cap - it is disrespectful to wear those in public

We want to welcome all people, but just because most clubs are middle age white men doesn't mean we need to "force" the balance. I know the OP never stated that we had to ensure the club was as diverse as the surrounding population, but let's not discriminate against the old white men. I ran into that at work where I was told point blank by a manager in Human Resources (HR) that I did not get accepted to a new position because I was a white male. I was told by the HR representative (who also stated if I repeated said claim they would deny it) that had I been a minority or female I would have gotten the position. Upper management felt there wasn't enough diversity so the position was being reserved for a non-(white male).ye

All we can do is be as open as possible and yes, take into account some things to do or not do that could turn off new people, but no one will be perfect. And just as we need to be tolerant we also need people to be tolerant of us.

jlabrasca said:

Who is talking about forcing anything?

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I am. Some of these inclusion concepts are going to have to be forced in order to obtain the desired results. Nathan makes an excellent point.

And let me guess. I should stay up nights agonizing over the fact that the guys I know who fly rockets are "old white men." Or perhaps model rocketry is another example of "white privilege."

DAllen said:

....There is this idea that if you're white any statement from you on race is less valid than someone of a different skin color. I'd rather judge statements and ideas on their merits alone rather than the color of the skin of those that said it....

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A person who has experienced racism has more authority in a conversation about racism. Their experiences make them qualified. The same way that an astronaut is more qualified than any of us to talk about the experiences of spaceflight--we may have studied it, but we have not experienced it.

We in the majority may or may not be wrong, but, when it comes to discussions of racism, we need to listen intently to those who have personally experienced it.

BDB said:

A person who has experienced racism has more authority in a conversation about racism.

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I think what you should be saying is they have more authority to speak on their personal experiences.

So my opinion that racism is wrong somehow has less merit because I am white or I just haven't experienced the same level of racism as someone else? That really doesn't make any sense. Why can't we just evaluate statements on the merit and accuracy of the statement itself rather than based the color of the skin who said it?

DAllen said:

I think what you mean to say is they have more authority to speak on their personal experiences.

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That's right. But their experiences are profoundly important.

The only argument that may win out over personal experiences is one that is supported by hard data. And what does the hard data show us about the topic of inclusion in our hobby? I think we all know the answer without even seeing the numbers.

[Though golf definitely has the same problem.]

BDB said:

That's right. But their experiences are profoundly important.

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Right and so are my experiences. Or are they not because I am white?

This right here is why discussions on race break down so quickly. Again, rather than looking at the merits of the statements alone one opinion is more important than another because of race. This is the white privilege mentality in society which usually translates into, "Shutup whitey your opinion doesn't matter here."

BDB said:

The only argument that may win out over personal experiences is one that is supported by hard data. And what does the hard data show us about the topic of inclusion in our hobby? I think we all know the answer without even seeing the numbers.

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And no one has still answered my question of why. Why do we need to force this inclusion? I don't think we do. My hard fact is my personal experience outlined in post 191. Or (again) is that not important because it was a white guy saying it? <--- and that's not sarcasm...serious question

BDB said:

[Though golf definitely has the same problem.]

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Again, why? Is this a problem for the PGA or society? Or is this really a problem at all? If a sport is more appealing to one culture over another why is that an issue? Why do we have to be so firggin homogeneous? Isn't ok that we all come from different cultures and different backgrounds and different activities is more appealing to one culture than another? So long as we aren't excluding others based on skin color this is all basically a solution looking for a problem.

Guess what, if Tiger Woods can't bring in the minorities NO ONE CAN.

I do not want to target any race, gender, or orientation, although I do feel that some economically depressed areas would benefit from outreach by rocketry groups. I do want our behavior at the range to be welcoming to all. For the most part that’s all I’ve ever seen. I would simply urge people to reconsider the message external controversial statements send.

The truth is not welcome here...

Steve Shannon said:

I do not want to target any race, gender, or orientation, although I do feel that some economically depressed areas would benefit from outreach by rocketry groups. I do want our behavior at the range to be welcoming to all. For the most part that’s all I’ve ever seen. I would simply urge people to reconsider the message external controversial statements send.

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Yes. A thousand times yes. I am all for getting kids from economically depressed areas into the hobby. Its a fantastic way to pay it forward. Get them into an activity that could lead to a career.

I'll go for that inclusion. The kind that helps people who are struggling to make ends meet.

DAllen said:

I am. Some of these inclusion concepts are going to have to be forced in order to obtain the desired results. Nathan makes an excellent point.

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What has to be forced? What has been proposed?

Off color remarks aren't the problem, condescension is.

If I heard an off-hand offensive term about my ethnicity, I'd chalk it up to one bigot out of a hundred people at a launch and shrug it off. If there was a "Diversity and Inclusion" condescension program, I'd get another hobby.

Ben Franklin once that those who would give up liberty for safety deserve, and will get, neither. In our context, those who would give up competence for diversity will get neither.

Imagine you're a Purple Person. You show up at a launch and there's some smug, condescending Purple People Diversity and Inclusion Officer there. She's completely non-technical, can't tell a launch lug from a lug nut, and yet everyone's afraid of her because she can kick you out. This high-handed bureaucrat now starts telling you that your rocket is so well built, for a Purple Person. Somehow you get trotted out like a show pony for an award or a speech, where you're thrust into an uncomfortable spotlight where they coo over something trivial you did, because it's impressive, for a Purple Person. Meanwhile everyone else interacting with each other normally, and other people's far more impressive rockets are being ignored.

I can't think of a better way to chase away the target audience (nerdy, mildly introverted Purple People).

Implement a program like this and you'll end up with no young Purple Rocketeers, and a metastasizing bureaucracy of censorious, officious, technically-incompetent scolds.

Have you ever noticed that the vast majority of people working in "outreach for minorities in STEM" groups are neither minorities nor in STEM? I assure you we have.

As Bonasera from the Godfather says, "I believe in America". An inspiring American once said that he had a dream that sons of former slaves and sons of former slaveowners would someday sit down at the same table.

Not only has that happened, it has happened in outer space.

Rocket people are good people. I've never been made to feel in any way unwelcome by any of them. Condescension, tokenism, and quotas are a far greater danger to driving away young, technically-minded people.

jlabrasca said:

What has to be forced? What had been proposed?

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Right here in the very first post:

boatgeek said:

If you’re concerned about the long-term health of the hobby, it’s an awfully good idea to broaden the base beyond white guys.

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It's basically the premise of the entire thread.

That's what has been proposed and yes it will have to be forced to make it happen with anything other than organically. "Broaden the base beyond white guys" is one of the most racist things I have ever read in this forum. Know how I can tell if it's racist? If I substitute the word "white" with "black" or "hispanic" or whatever in that statement makes it sound like it came straight from the KKK. Like it or not the fact is that's applying the societal standard for what is and isn't racist universally, equally and without prejudice.

BDB said:

A person who has experienced racism has more authority in a conversation about racism. Their experiences make them qualified. The same way that an astronaut is more qualified than any of us to talk about the experiences of spaceflight--we may have studied it, but we have not experienced it.

We in the majority may or may not be wrong, but, when it comes to discussions of racism, we need to listen intently to those who have personally experienced it.

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As far as I can tell, I'm the only minority in this thread, and I think that race and racism have had zero effect on my participation. You didn't even know until I brought it up, and I usually don't bring it up precisely to avoid this sort of debacle.

Sadly the reason why there aren't many young minorities in rocketry has little to do with racism, or even a lack of outreach to urban communities. It's completely down to the sad and spectacular decline of American manned space. Young minorities aren't showing up for the same reason young white guys aren't showing up: nothing with a pulse has been launched from American soil in close to a decade.

Rocketry is old and white for the simple, sad reason that the last time kids saw regularly on on TV (Apollo), America was close to 90% white. The Shuttle design is older than that of the Apple IIe.

Kids build little rockets because they are inspired by big rockets. For the longest time, we didn't have any big rockets. The rocketry mini-boom going on now is 100% because of SpaceX (and perhaps Blue Origin).

Go to a meeting of your local WRX club and you'll find a group that closely matches the demographics of today's 20 somethings. It got that way with no outreach or diversity programs whatsoever. They played Gran Turismo as kids, and now they've bought the cars. (As an aside: If Tripoli/NAR, or perhaps Aerotech/Cesaroni were willing to put up some money to staff booths at car shows and show ThreeCarbYen videos/display rockets, we'd probably be able to bring in tons of people.)

If America manages to put a man on the moon or Mars again, if today's kids watch the Stars and Stripes planted in alien red soil, thirty years from now the launches will be more Hispanic and Asian and a less African and European, and there's nothing we can do to change that.

If America doesn't manage to put a man on the moon or Mars, if we have safe spaces instead of space programs, thirty years from now we aren't going to have launches, and there's nothing we can do to change that either.

I wish I could click like more than once NotQuiteNominal. Well said!

DAllen said:

That's what has been proposed and yes it will have to be forced to make it happen with anything other than organically.

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I think you are mistaken. No one has proposed a quota system, or postponing launches until a quorum of people from minority populations can be assembled, or forcing people to DO anything.

DAllen said:

"Broaden the base beyond white guys" is one of the most racist things I have ever read in this forum.

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Okay. Maybe your "ignored user" list is even longer than mine -- but there are WAY more racist things than that in sig files and avatar images, never mind the content of posts.

DAllen said:

Know how I can tell if it's racist? If I substitute the word "white" with "black" or "hispanic" or whatever in that statement makes it sound like it came straight from the KKK. Like it or not the fact is that's applying the societal standard for what is and isn't racist universally, equally and without prejudice.

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Broaden the base beyond black guys? Broaden the base beyond gay men? Broaden the base beyond orthodox transvestites? If the aim is to just get more people buying motors and kits and rocket parts, these all seem like excellent ideas -- and really, the KKK? Even when they try to clean it up for public consumption, they are never that corporate.

Klan Slogans and Symbols

I like the idea that we have to apply standards for what is, and isn't, an unequal distribution of power based upon prejudice "equally and without prejudice". I agree. We all need to check our privilege.

Not Quite Nominal said:

Imagine you're a Purple Person. You show up at a launch and there's some smug, condescending Purple People Diversity and Inclusion Officer there

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Imagine you are strawman...

You are arguing against a position that no-one has taken.

(and if you are a strawman, stay away from the old white guys flying sparkies -- its not a racist thing)

Not Quite Nominal said:

As far as I can tell, I'm the only minority in this thread

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You are not.