=scale= Nike Smoke Fin Dimensions?

rocketguy101 said:

I see the weld bead now that is mentioned in the M5 drawing.

Click to expand...

Gotta love weld beads. https://www.meatballrocketry.com/samples/NikeM5E1.jpg

Meatball 1 said:

Gotta love weld beads. https://www.meatballrocketry.com/samples/NikeM5E1.jpg

Click to expand...

Nice modeling work Josh. What CAD package do you use?

Greg

GregGleason said:

Nice modeling work Josh. What CAD package do you use?

Greg

Click to expand...

Thanks.

TurboCAD Pro, actually. I currently have v16. IMSI/Design just recently released v17, but there are still a lot of bugs they're working out due to a change in wireframe rendering engine.

The nice thing about TC Pro is that you can find legal older copies of it on ebay or elsewhere, and still be able to legitimately upgrade it for less than the normal full price. An old version of TC Pro is still *way* better than the 3D capabilities in TC Deluxe version (no ACIS solids in Deluxe, and not as many 3D tools). Just like any CAD software (especially with 3D) there's a pretty serious learning curve, but I picked up doing 2D pretty quickly in 2001.

I'm currently learning AutoCAD 2010, and it's interesting to see the differences in function after using TC for so long.

For more samples...
www.meatballrocketry.com/samples.htm

And just for fun, take a look at the page for TurboCAD 17 Pro-- look at the right side of the box. See any Saturn graphics that look familiar? https://tinyurl.com/y8s6lg7
(for the record, this is not an affiliate link--it takes you straight to TC 17 Pro).

Thanks, Josh.

BTW, I found your PVC Spider project in SR (a few years back) pretty creative. Plus you have a very nice Saturn to go with it!

Greg

Bumping this old thread to show the fruits of my labor...this was a ~40 year old Centuri kit...I replaced the balsa fins with built-up paper fins--hopefully I get to fly this pretty soon!

I started the display stand when I was 13, but never attached it to a base. I had just received an Xacto "strip cutter" and went nuts cutting balsa strips to make the "I" beams. After gluing it together, it layed around in my balsa nose cone box until I started building the NS. So its sorta fitting, an old display stand to go along with the old bird...

Thanks to the folks on this thread that helped me with the NS fin dimensions and other details...this model is not a "detail scale" so I did not use all the info, but some day...

Nice SMOKE. I like the display stand as well. Let us know how it flies.

Wow! Sounds like a real labor of love. Best wishes on your maiden voyage!

rocketguy101 said:

Bumping this old thread to show the fruits of my labor...this was a ~40 year old Centuri kit...I replaced the balsa fins with built-up paper fins--hopefully I get to fly this pretty soon!

I started the display stand when I was 13, but never attached it to a base. I had just received an Xacto "strip cutter" and went nuts cutting balsa strips to make the "I" beams. After gluing it together, it layed around in my balsa nose cone box until I started building the NS. So its sorta fitting, an old display stand to go along with the old bird...

Thanks to the folks on this thread that helped me with the NS fin dimensions and other details...this model is not a "detail scale" so I did not use all the info, but some day...

Click to expand...

FINALLY got to fly the Smoke today...it was pretty windy, but had a nice flight. I am proud of the shot--lately I seem to catch them right after ignition, still sitting on the pad.

AWESOME ! Beautiful work on the rocket and launcher ,hats off to you sir.

Paul

Sorry to reprise a really old thread, but I searched all existing 'Nike Smoke' threads, and this was the one that best matched the questions I have. I'm working up an OpenSCAD Nike Smoke model and there are still a few things that I'd like to clear up. First off, an easy one... All of the color descriptions say the nose tip - the inlet pipe - is black. But the best color picture that shows the nose clearly seems to show it as red. I'm guessing it might have been different on different rounds. (Or, is the pipe end covered with tape - to keep the TiCl from spilling out?) Also regarding the tip, there was a question about whether the Stine nose tip diameter of 2" was correct vs a calculated 1.5" diameter. The photo seems to confirm that it can't be 2" (if the pipe is 1" [1.3" OD].



The most lengthy discussion earlier in this thread is about the 'warp' that must be in the leading and trailing edge panels if the Stine dimensions are used. In OpenScad if you try to hull a plane with four non- co-planar points like that, it shows up as two distinct triangles, so I agree that something is probably off there. One thing I noticed is that if using the Stine drawing thicknesses, the fin would interfere with the launch lug mounting flanges. Pretty good dimensions on the LL's appear on the Dorffler drawings:


These drawings are for the Nike-Apache, but the lugs appear to be the same as what appears in the Smoke photographs. However, doing some crude photogrammetry of my own, the fins don't really seem to match any of the ARC document fins very well either (even the interpolated 2.75ft2). For the moment, I've used the Stine dimensions, but with the thickness adjusted down and the tips adjusted for co-planarity. I'm open to other suggestions, and I need to do the photo measurements in greater detail.

There have been many discussions about stencil fonts. But the stencil that appears on what appears to be the most photographed prototype is pretty crude. In particular, the 'E' is obviously cut out by hand. What I've done is take that very good view of the text, import to Inkscape, and trace the outline, warts and all.

My plan is to take that .svg outline into the laser cutter, and cut a stencil into Friskit film, and apply and paint the stencil as a stencil (should I ever get around to actually building a model. One other thing about the stencil and the longitudinal weld line. The Nike M5 weld like has always bothered me. In all the Nike-Hercules photos I've seen, it doesn't seem to appear in a regular place. It appears so seldom that I wonder if some versions of the M5 were made with seamless casings? Anyway, the only photo of the weld appears here:

That's 180 degrees opposed to the side usually seen (rocket pointed to the right). Now, the 'UNITED STATES' stencil as seen above, is centered between the fins, pretty clear. But if the stencil on the opposite side is centered, it places the stencil right across the weld line. Would they have done that? Would the stencil have been paper or as I would expect, a more rigid fiberboard that would be difficult to flatten across the weld? This photo of the weld-line side is pretty much at eye level, and the stenciled text appears 'high'. Do you suppose that on this side they laid the stencil above the weld line, rather than centered?


The cradle marks on the body - places that remain the original M5 green when the body was sprayed white. I'm a little bit annoyed by kit decals that place these as crisp bars. I'm going to paint the body OD Green, and then print a 'cradle' and spray the white around it leaving soft edges (again, if I ever get around to building a model).

Just one last question. There are some large bolts(?) between the fins near the forward edge of the fin shroud. They're at the same level as the launch lug bolts, so it's certain that they bolt into the aft M5 flange. Shown here:


So I'm lacking any guess at the diameter of those, their angular positions, and if they appear in the other quadrants. I'll be making a best guess. The bottom 'bolt' in that pic really doesn't look like a bolt - more like it has a hollow in the center or something (or maybe the paint is just scraped off).

So here's what I've got so far. It's not yet actually a printable model - it needs to be sectioned off, and it's not a flyable model yet either; will still need some work. And yes, I've included details that won't show in 1/10 scale or less, I'm CDO that way.

... ran out of attach room...


A note on the launch lugs. I've included the two bolts holding on each capture plate that aren't shown in the Dorffler drawings. But I can see a hint of them in one of the photos. Also, it's not reasonable that this plate isn't removable, otherwise the vehicle would have to be slid on the rail from the end like a model rocket. The plates on the launch lugs of the Nike-Hercules are definitely bolted on like this.

The Nike Smoke is really popular - lots of threads here. Here are a few that I found informative:
https://www.rocketryforum.com/threads/nike-smoke.53618/
https://www.rocketryforum.com/threads/scale-nike-smoke-fin-dimensions.8174/
https://www.rocketryforum.com/threads/nike-smoke-details-needed.10581/
https://www.rocketryforum.com/threads/nike-smoke-color.108697/
https://www.rocketryforum.com/threads/nike-smoke-font.8255/
https://www.rocketryforum.com/threads/scale-nike-smoke-gallery.15620/
https://www.rocketryforum.com/threads/nike-smoke-1-12-4-scale-3d-print.149247/



And there are no less than three NS on Thingiverse:
https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:2537750
https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:3196722
https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:2933203


Edit: Almost forgot - the UNITED STATES.txt file that I attached to the previous post, is the stencil .svg file renamed as a .txt - forum won't allow .svg Rename it back to .svg and it can be opened in Inkscape. Also note that the fin 'stands off' from the body, except at the fin center panel.

edit: Also, regarding the stencil/weld line placement, note the relative position of the cradle marks to the stencil. On the right-pointing picture, the position of the stencil overlaps the upper edge of the cradle mark. On the other side, the stencil is above the cradle mark (no guarantee it was sitting perfectly aligned on the cradle though).

edit, again: I'd been using the UH Nike-Cajun photos to place the screws on the fin shroud seam. But those photos show eight screws on the upper edge and the 'weld' photo above clearly shows only six. The fin attach plate looks much wider too. More todo.

vcp said:

Just one last question. There are some large bolts(?) between the fins near the forward edge of the fin shroud. They're at the same level as the launch lug bolts, so it's certain that they bolt into the aft M5 flange. Shown here:
View attachment 370303

So I'm lacking any guess at the diameter of those, their angular positions, and if they appear in the other quadrants. I'll be making a best guess. The bottom 'bolt' in that pic really doesn't look like a bolt - more like it has a hollow in the center or something (or maybe the paint is just scraped off).

Click to expand...

That Nike booster may have come from an MIM-14 Nike Hercules. There are mounts that bolt to the 4 boosters to hold them together.

Dave F.

I've been poking around in all my Nike Smoke materials recently, and recently have been lurking on this thread. First, I'll point out that the non-planar discrepancy of the fore and aft panels of the Nike fins earlier in the thread is something I've worried about in the back of my mind for some time--I just did the best I could with the sources I have when I made my drawings. There are, of course, four possible ways to resolve it: First, the locations of the panel breaks could be wrong in the drawings. Second, the thickness at the root r tip or both could be wrong in the drawings. Third, the leading or trailing edges may have significant thickness. Fourth, the skins may have been allowed to flex in fabrication.

Another issue is the actual fin planform. Something seemed wrong when I compared photos to drawings back when I did RotW, but I just held my nose and published. Since then, I have figured out that Nike Smokes came with at least two different fin sizes, 2.0 square foot, and 2.5 square foot. I'm embarrassed to say that I drew the Nike Smoke in RotW with 2.5 sq. ft. fins, but illustrated it with a photo with 2.0 sq.ft. fins. If I recall correctly, Stine shows 2.5 sq. ft. fins, but Centuri's drawing shows 2.0 sq. ft. fins. Once you know the difference, you can look at photos, with or without ruler in hand, and sort them by fin size.

That last issue is that the fin attachment method for Nike sounding rockets changed with time, and possibly with manufacturer of the fins, maybe even depending on whether it flew at Wallops or Kennedy/Canaveral. There may not be one definitive Nike-Smoke fin attachment method, any more than there is one definitive Nike-Smoke fin size or color scheme. I suspect that the variations in attachment method run across payloads and upper stages.

In other words, for all that you piece together details from different places, if you want to get down to the individual screw level of detail, you'll need one or more high-resolution images of one particular round.

Assuming I'm able to get a big 5th edition of RotW printed, I expect to reflect the fin sizes for different paint patterns, but I may not be able to sort out all the fin attachment styles. I make no claims that my drawings have all the details, but ideally, my new drawings won't have so many mistakes.

Here is the best I've been able to do at present. I feel good about the two fin sizes, but I am quite aware that the tapering of the forward are rear panels of each fin suggest something like a factor of 5:1 in fin thickness taper, while the fin thickness dimensions show a 2:1 fin thickness taper. Before this can go to press, I'll have to poke around my sources and see where those fin panel lines came from, and decide which of those factors mentioned above come into play.

Peter Alway

A little more data . . .

Dave F.

Were the plates on the nose cone screwed on or riveted?

You might find some interesting info on this page: https://meatballrocketry.com/nike-motor-data/
The "Standard Fins" document gives the reference drawing numbers for production fins. You might be able to trace the actual production drawings if you are lucky.

Incongruent said:

Were the plates on the nose cone screwed on or riveted?

Click to expand...

Bolted . . . Access Ports to allow nose cone to be bolted to booster . . . Bolt type unknown.

Dave F.

This post should be moved to this thread by Peter Alway:

https://www.rocketryforum.com/threads/mysteries-of-the-nike-booster-motor.182187/
--------------------------------------------------------------

Okay I have a question about a Nike booster Rocket. Hopefully this is a good place to ask since we are talking about a Nike rocket here. Back in 1954-57 the Nike Booster was used as a sounding rocket to test models of the Avro Arrow design. At least my limited reading keeps seeing them referred to as Nike boosters. However when I look at all the variations of the Nike rocket, the rear fins just don't seem to match. Attached is a photo of the supposed Nike Booster. Apparently 9 of these were used to perform Free Flight Model Tests. The horizontal stabilizers or fins look absolutely huge and and I do not believe there is a bottom fin. I think its a 3 fin configuration but at 90, 90, 180 degree spacing.

HOWEVER, I just found this YouTube video and it may show a 4th lower fin. Its just not 100% clear to me. So if this is actually a Nike Booster, any idea on how I can get some details on those fins as they look huge and nothing like the Nike rocket fins.

The fins were not integral to the Nike booster motor. From the factory, the aft end of the booster had its nozzle exposed to the air, and threads, as well as, I seem to recall, some bolt holes. So that Nike Ajax fins could be attached, or they could be fitted into a Nike Hercules tail section, or any of a number of sounding rocket fins could be attached. So the AVRO Arrow test fin cans fit over the motor. It looks like those fin cans covered more of the booster than the usual missile or sounding rocket fins did.