ITAR Discussion

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cwbullet

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I recently received an email asking about ITAR. Can someone with the know explain it on this thread?

My understanding:

ITAR (International Traffic in Arms Regulations) is stringent written to avoid export of technology and products with direct defense-related applications. The most controlled items are Significant Military Equipment (SME) which have “capacity for substantial military utility or capability” . These items or technology are listed in lists: the United States Munitions List (USML) and the Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR). A look at the list reveals that it includes rockets and propellant.

ITAR Compliance covers companies. Before a company can begin to export it is wise to implement an Export Management System of some type.

Is posting to the forum exporting? Could we be considered a company?

You can quickly see the confusion.
 
Exactly why I never posted airfoil coordinates or files for supersonic airfoils here. I took a lot of flak for that attitude. I did not want to see anything bad happen to forum.
 
Exactly why I never posted airfoil coordinates or files for supersonic airfoils here. I took a lot of flak for that attitude. I did not want to see anything bad happen to forum.

Although that might be against the rules, I suspect there is nothing in what you did that is not already out there. Then again, I guess it is good to be safe.
 
I would assume that the vast majority of information discussed here is derivative from public sources.
 
Concur. On to a more difficult topic, why is the research section protected?
 
I recently received an email asking about ITAR. Can someone with the know explain it on this thread?

My understanding:

ITAR (International Traffic in Arms Regulations) is stringent written to avoid export of technology and products with direct defense-related applications. The most controlled items are Significant Military Equipment (SME) which have “capacity for substantial military utility or capability” . These items or technology are listed in lists: the United States Munitions List (USML) and the Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR). A look at the list reveals that it includes rockets and propellant.

ITAR Compliance covers companies. Before a company can begin to export it is wise to implement an Export Management System of some type.

Is posting to the forum exporting? Could we be considered a company?

You can quickly see the confusion.

I'm also not an expert, but we have to deal with ITAR and EAR (Export Administration Regulations) at work.
EAR is for commercial and handled by the Department of State
ITAR is military and handled by the Department of State.
Technical data and items can be be commercial equipment with military applications.

An export can occur with by verbal or written methods, or by displaying or providing an export restricted item.
An export occurs when restricted technical data is provided to a foreign national, or a representative of a foreign company (so if a US citizen works for a Canadian Company, data provided to that citizen is still an export)

So yes, anything posted here that is technical on the forum could be an export since non-American nationals can view the information.

But now we get into definition of technical data. First, information readily available and "common knowledge" is exempt. If you can find the information in a book in the library or on the web than one can say it is common knowledge. There are limits - if someone posted the nuclear launch codes, that would not make that data a non-export. If you copied the info and re-posted the data it would still be considered an export.

Now as an example, let's consider the latest Featherweight tracker (sorry - not trying to pick on Adrian). While information on its capabilities have been posted, since the actual source code that provides the functionality has not been posted, there has been no export. The capabilities data is high level marketing data, not technical data. The actual source code would be technical data. And that info has NOT been posted.

Any units that he may sell to a foreign national (and yes, Canada, Mexico, UK, etc are foreign countries and those citizens are foreign nationals) could be considered an export. At such point Adrian would be providing an export. Whether it would be considered an export via EAR or ITAR would have to be determined. I know for our company many items are classified as commercial equipment, no license required.
 
Ok. Thank you. I get a lot of arguments from non-US citizens how they should have access to the research section and why ITAR does not apply. I want to confirm for myself and it seems like we are correct and allowing US only access.
 
Bad actors can probably find propellant and energetics information somewhere if they dig hard enough, but at least they won't find it by coming here through a simple google.

I had similar questions when igniter aid formulations were being discussed in the staging forum a couple weeks ago
 
I think the easy answer is that if solid rocket propellant information is covered by ITAR then what is discussed in the research forum may be ITAR depending on whether the formulas are freely available elsewhere. Since the mods don’t have they bandwidth to determine that, they take a conservative approach. Also, it may save a 13-year-old from burning down his house or worse.
 
The other piece of this puzzle is that what the government chooses to prosecute or investigate under ITAR, as is often the case for the IRS and other agencies, is sometimes seen as somewhat arbitrary. Since the fines for non-compliance and the cost of assembling a legal defense for an accusation (even if utterly innocent) are so high, a single accusation would close/bankrupt the forum permanently. The decision was made to just stay far away from the possibility of being accused.
 
One should also consider the Fundamental Research Exemption. Failing to acknowledge this is failing to properly implement restrictions. In the end, the risk of TRF, being a public forum, and as far as I know a non-profit organization, is minute. The real question should be: does the benefit of being a better resource (and that includes teaching good practices, for those scared of "13-year-olds burning down their houses") outweigh the risk of having to respond for a minor ITAR violation?

EDIT: I understand public would be too much, so the first option would be removing the citizenship limitation, but still restricting access to L2-certified or equivalent members.
 
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The other piece of this puzzle is that what the government chooses to prosecute or investigate under ITAR, as is often the case for the IRS and other agencies, is sometimes seen as somewhat arbitrary. Since the fines for non-compliance and the cost of assembling a legal defense for an accusation (even if utterly innocent) are so high, a single accusation would close/bankrupt the forum permanently. The decision was made to just stay far away from the possibility of being accused.

Besides fines, non-compliance can also mean jail time. Probably both for the poster and the owners of the forum.
We have yearly export training and the consequences for violating export rules are pounded into our heads.......
 
Besides fines, non-compliance can also mean jail time. Probably both for the poster and the owners of the forum.
We have yearly export training and the consequences for violating export rules are pounded into our heads.......

I look good in orange but have no want to go behind bars.
 
I deal with ITAR and EAR stuff at work all the time and have been formally trained on interpreting it...

ITAR covers everyone in the US, not just companies.

Be careful about focusing on information. You can’t discuss publicly available, but listed information because ITAR not only covers the info, but something that’s a bit more vague called “Defense Services”.

The best way that I can describe it in our context is the following...let’s say that the formula for a particular rocketry propellent is “common knowledge” and can be found on a multitude of websites. The laws concerning Export Control recognize that there’s often more to technology than just the materials list or recipe. Discussing how to mix the propellent, how to get good cures, etc..., is considered a “Defense Service” and is also restricted. Also, discussion by experts about commonly known things adds credibility to that information and that is considered controlled as well because as an expert, you are saying that a particular piece of public information is important. That’s a technology export.

I would consider the restricted areas of this forum to fall under the Defense Services restrictions.

Now...all of this ultimately comes down to judgement calls. ITAR violations have to be egregious and repeated to be prosecuted, but you really don’t want to deal with a “hand-slap” either! That can be a pain.
 
It’s been a few years since my job required me to interpret the ITAR, but I still remember enough to express an opinion. Disclaimer: I’m not a lawyer for anyone on this forum.

It appears to me that EX solid rocket motors are covered by the ITAR. Certain commercially certified motors are exempt but the only exemption I can find require commercial certification. If that’s right, then technical data and defense services related to EX solid motors are also covered by the ITAR. As such, they cannot be exported without a license.

An export is very broad. Giving technical data to any non-US person is an export, even if it occurs in the United States. A US person is either a citizen or a green card holder. Anyone else is not a US person. So limiting access to people in the US is arguably not sufficient. Proof of either citizenship or permanent residency before being admitted to the EX portion of the forum would be more prudent.

Joe
 
On a somewhat related note, any model or high power rocket designed to be flown on certified commercial motors is exempt. A rather interesting thread in the forum relates to a rocket being designed to fly on an EX R motor. That rocket appears to be governed by the ITAR because it is not designed to fly on commercial motors. I’m not aware of a commercial R motor. If the rocket itself is governed by the ITAR, then technical data and defense services related to it would likely also be governed by it. Some of the most recent discussion looks a whole lot like technical data and defense services to me. Posting that on a generally available public forum could be interpreted as an export.

It would be unfortunate to have to move that discussion to a restricted part of the forum. There’s apparently some learning going on. I’m not smart enough to know if it’s useful learning or not, but it appears to be. So I would hate to see that learning get disrupted by restricting who can participate. But I guess that’s the point, isn’t it. Non-US persons can get the same benefit of that learning.

I’m not suggesting that the North Koreans or some other nefarious group would learn how to build rockets from the forum, but that line is drawn by the State Department, not by The Rocketry Forum.

Joe
 
I think this is a discussion for the open forum. It clearly explains why we can not risk the forum or the owner with a move to expand membership to non-US citizens or open it to all.
 
I think this is a discussion for the open forum. It clearly explains why we can not risk the forum or the owner with a move to expand membership to non-US citizens or open it to all.

I don't think he meant that *this* discussion shouldn't be in an open forum, I think he was mentioning another thread about an EXperimental 'R' motor, and that since there were no 'R' motors currently certified, the entire discussion might well fall under ITAR and that discussion was not, currently, in the research area.
 
Recently a member requested clarification from the government in order to determine whether his product fell under ITAR. As soon as he asked the question, his product became like Heisenberg’s cat with respect to ITAR, neither deemed clear of ITAR nor officially covered by ITAR, but until confirmed one way or the other incapable of being exported.
This discussion is a little like that. As long as people openly state that discussions about making propellant are covered by ITAR, the government will gladly presume that’s true.
My observation as a non-lawyer, but years of compliance experience as a Professional Engineer, is that we’re always better served discussing the fine points of whether we’re in compliance behind closed doors, then coming up with an official position. That’s what you show the regulators. Unfortunately, keeping a forum that disciplined is very difficult.
 
It has been a while since I had ITAR Training, but one thing they beat into us was the definition of export. I have brought it up repeatedly, but no one else ever mentions it here, taking information out of the country, even by a U.S. citizen, is an export. Let me use an example specific to this forum. If I (a U.S. citizen) had access to the Research Forum and go to Canada and access that forum while in Canada, I have exported that information. It doesn't matter if no one else sees the information; the information has been exported even though the only person to see it was a U.S. citizen. If the information was restricted for ITAR reasons, I violated the export rule.

For the record, I do not have access to the Research Forum.
 
It appears to me that EX solid rocket motors are covered by the ITAR.
Joe

From USML

*(b) Propellants, as follows (MT for composite and composite modified double-base propellants):

(1) Any solid propellant with a theoretical specific impulse (see paragraph (k)(4) of this category) greater than:

(i) 240 seconds for non-metallized, non-halogenated propellant;

(ii) 250 seconds for non-metallized, halogenated propellant; or

(iii) 260 seconds for metallized propellant;

(2) Propellants having a force constant of more than 1,200 kJ/Kg;

Only very high performance EX propellents would qualify, I do not think APCP can reach this ISP levels in a real motor. (Maybe in Propep)
 
From USML

*(b) Propellants, as follows (MT for composite and composite modified double-base propellants):

(1) Any solid propellant with a theoretical specific impulse (see paragraph (k)(4) of this category) greater than:

(i) 240 seconds for non-metallized, non-halogenated propellant;

(ii) 250 seconds for non-metallized, halogenated propellant; or

(iii) 260 seconds for metallized propellant;

(2) Propellants having a force constant of more than 1,200 kJ/Kg;

Only very high performance EX propellents would qualify, I do not think APCP can reach this ISP levels in a real motor. (Maybe in Propep)

Here’s why I reached the conclusion I did. Start with Category IV part (a). From the USML:

“Category IV—Launch Vehicles, Guided Missiles, Ballistic Missiles, Rockets, Torpedoes, Bombs, and Mines

*(a) Rockets, space launch vehicles (SLVs), missiles, bombs, torpedoes, depth charges, mines, and grenades, as follows:

(1) Rockets, SLVs, and missiles capable of delivering at least a 500-kg payload to a range of at least 300 km (MT);

(2) Rockets, SLVs, and missiles capable of delivering less than a 500-kg payload to a range of at least 300 km (MT);

. . .

(5) Rockets, SLVs, and missiles not meeting the criteria of paragraphs (a)(1) through (a)(4) of this category.”

Paragraphs () and (2) don’t apply. Those are really big rockets. Paragraph (5) suggests that all other rockets are covered. Fortunately, we have Note 3 to paragraph (a): “This paragraph does not control model and high power rockets (as defined in National Fire Protection Association Code 1122) and kits thereof made of paper, wood, fiberglass, or plastic containing no substantial metal parts and designed to be flown with hobby rocket motors that are certified for consumer use. Such rockets must not contain active controls (e.g., RF, GPS).”

Next go to rocket motors:

“*(d) Rocket, SLV, and missile power plants, as follows:

(1) Except as enumerated in paragraph (d)(2) or (d)(3) of this category, individual rocket stages for the articles enumerated in paragraph (a)(1), (a)(2), or (a)(5) of this category (MT for those stages usable in systems enumerated in paragraphs (a)(1) and (a)(2) of this category);

(2) Solid propellant rocket motors, hybrid or gel rocket motors, or liquid propellant rocket engines having a total impulse capacity equal to or greater than 1.1 × 106 N·s (MT);

(3) Solid propellant rocket motors, hybrid or gel rocket motors, or liquid propellant rocket engines having a total impulse capacity equal to or greater than 8.41 × 105 N·s, but less than 1.1 × 106 N·s (MT).

. . .

(7) Rocket, SLV, and missile engines and motors, not otherwise enumerated in paragraphs (d)(1) through (d)(6) of this category or USML Category XIX.”

Unless my math is wrong, (3) would be a T motor. And (2) would be a T/U motor. Note 3 to paragraph (a) excludes rocket rockets built for certified motors, so the motors themselves are excluded by virtue of that note, so (1) is out as well. That leaves (7). (7) covers all rocket motors other than described in (1), (2), and (3). Fortunately, we have a note similar to Note 3 to paragraph (a):

“Note 1 to paragraph (d): This paragraph does not control model and high power rocket motors, containing no more than 5 pounds of propellant, that are certified for U.S. consumer use as described in National Fire Protection Association Code 1125.”

Note 1 to paragraph (d) excludes only certified motors. So it appears to me that EX motors of any kind are covered by ITAR under USML Category IV(d)(7). As you note, the propellants are probably not covered, but EX motors themselves appear to be. And even commercial motors with more than 5 pounds of propellant also appear to be covered by USML Category IV(d)(7).

Again, not legal advice, but you should be able to follow my analysis.

Joe
 
Again, not legal advice, but you should be able to follow my analysis.

Joe
I do. But the motor technology discussed on this forum is derivative of and less than the performance of the SRB propellant that was put into the public domain by NASA in 1980's.
Unless we want to keep the knowledge of how to make a sparky from North Korea.

Much more useful propellants are freely disclosed in much more detail including performance figures and methods of preparation (both lacking in this forum) the US Patent Office which is searchable by anybody in the world.

Example:
https://patents.google.com/patent/US9850182B2/en

I personally got information on how to make a Mach4 capable ablative coating from a freely disclosed Raytheon patent from materials you can buy on Ebay.

My opinion (only that) it is silly to think anything on this forum (99.9% derived from public sources and out of thin air) approaches anything close to munitions that ITAR is concerned about.

Also, not legal advice....
 
I do. But the motor technology discussed on this forum is derivative of and less than the performance of the SRB propellant that was put into the public domain by NASA in 1980's.
Unless we want to keep the knowledge of how to make a sparky from North Korea.

Much more useful propellants are freely disclosed in much more detail including performance figures and methods of preparation (both lacking in this forum) the US Patent Office which is searchable by anybody in the world.

Example:
https://patents.google.com/patent/US9850182B2/en

I personally got information on how to make a Mach4 capable ablative coating from a freely disclosed Raytheon patent from materials you can buy on Ebay.

My opinion (only that) it is silly to think anything on this forum (99.9% derived from public sources and out of thin air) approaches anything close to munitions that ITAR is concerned about.

Also, not legal advice....

Now you’re just making sense. Nothing on this forum should be covered. But it appears to be. That’s all I was suggesting. For what it’s worth, I wouldn’t mind if the North Koreans used sparkies. They’re not very efficient motors, but they’re my favorites. Especially Dark Matter.
 
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