Who's Using or Buying a CNC Router

Looking for feedback. Studied it a while. After looking at Jeremy Schmidt's You Tube channel, he revamped and improved on his old Shark CNC Pro. Once I select a control system, I'm want to build my own. Too many systems seem to have a fair amount of play.

Dave A said:

Looking for feedback. Studied it a while. After looking at Jeremy Schmidt's You Tube channel, he revamped and improved on his old Shark CNC Pro. Once I select a control system, I'm want to build my own. Too many systems seem to have a fair amount of play.

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I am currently looking at the Shapeoko XXL. I also just watched a video on a 5 axis mini CNC Mill. Man is that a nice bit of hardware and very reasonably priced, but it can only work on 4.25" x 2.5". Nice to dream.

I have looked at them for years. I own a carvewright and love but want something bigger.

I recently bought a FolgetTech FORTIS, its a kit and you definitely learn lot getting built, wired and dialed in. The standalone controller allows you to run without a computer attached. I have added an aluminum bed to mine, and replaced the stepper wiring with shielded cable.

I'm looking at a Shapeoko XL (16x32x3 envelope). CNC capability vs cost looks really good. Alternative would a mini-mill from Little Machine Shop with DRO. It's manual and won't do fins very well, but is more suited for work in aluminum and easier to add a rotary table. Would love to make a DIY combo router / laser cutter but don't really have time.

I've got a Millright Power Route on the way. It looks to be rigid enough for some metal working, though I intended to use it mostly for woods. The GRBL controller can't do 4th axis, though I might look at extending it or similar. I have a rotary table that would be interesting in that role with a stepper added. I also like that this machine uses ballscrews instead of belts for motion control. Again, more for future use, in softer materials like wood and plastic it doesn't matter. I also added the little 2.8W laser, to get a taste of using one. Maybe I'll like it enough to buy a real laser later. But there are some interesting things to use it for, like the sandblasting mask tape that's laser safe. And the ever popular burning graphics into coasters.

From what I saw, the MillRight Power Router and the Shark HDs are good machines, again this is my opinion:
1) I prefer the metal rails and guides, instead of lighter beams and roller wheels.
2) Belt drives are great for large printer plotters, if you plan to do a enough work and want rigidity, then servos driving ball screws for movement is better.
3) Some machines will have plastic carriages, carriage rigidity is important. Grabbing the top and bottom of your router and pull and push slightly. You would be surprised in the play some of them have.
4) If you want to do deep cuts that require multiple cutting paths to achieve it: repeat ability is important.

I am still on my quest to build my ultimate machine, I currently learning the parts to all the controls.
I want to find a DIY control system that I can adapt to my table. I saw some videos of some guys buying all the boards, doing all this script writing and programming to make it work. That is one phase I want to avoid.

I'm not sure how big of a router you are looking at, but I've used a 4'x4' CNC Router Parts router before, and it worked flawlessly. It ran with Mach3CNC from a computer, so it was easy to go from Solidworks to part on one computer. They are expensive, but rigid and fast. I was cutting an airfoil mold out of foam at 300+ IPM.

Shapeoko XL.

I used it a lot on this build

L2 Certification Build -- Five Finned Folly

and for a lot of other stuff.






Check these channels

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCpyCapIXuei6coanzYDLwnQ

https://www.youtube.com/user/krayvis

Dave A said:

From what I saw, the MillRight Power Router and the Shark HDs are good machines, again this is my opinion:
1) I prefer the metal rails and guides, instead of lighter beams and roller wheels.
2) Belt drives are great for large printer plotters, if you plan to do a enough work and want rigidity, then servos driving ball screws for movement is better.
3) Some machines will have plastic carriages, carriage rigidity is important. Grabbing the top and bottom of your router and pull and push slightly. You would be surprised in the play some of them have.
4) If you want to do deep cuts that require multiple cutting paths to achieve it: repeat ability is important.

I am still on my quest to build my ultimate machine, I currently learning the parts to all the controls.
I want to find a DIY control system that I can adapt to my table. I saw some videos of some guys buying all the boards, doing all this script writing and programming to make it work. That is one phase iI want to avoid.

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You’re not going to have very much rigidity in a hobby machine. There’s a reason industrial machines are based off large castings. If you’re looking to have any kind of accuracy, you’re better off buying a manual mill and converting it to CNC. Stay away from routers. Having the spindle on a gantry is going to hurt you when it comes to stiffness.

I’m in the process of moving from Mach 3 to Mach 4 on my machines. Mach has been better than most of the motion control software I’ve used. Vital System’s HiCON Integra motion controller looks fantastic and I’m hoping to pick one up soon. It supports AC servos and having a closed loop system is going to make a huge difference when it comes to accuracy under load and repeatability. The issue is that most hobby motion control software has no support for straightness and backlash compensation, or it’s extremely lacking.

While you’re absolutely correct about belts, depending on your budget, leadscrews will be a better solution. Ballscrews are not cheap and require proper lubrication during use to avoid wear, where most leadscrews don’t require as much attention but do sacrifice some accuracy.

I have no idea what you’re trying to cut or the tolerances you’re trying to hold, but with the focus on rigidity and depth of cut in your posts your best bet may be finding a smaller used Haas or Fadal. With the higher end hobby machines going for around 5k$ plus, you’re better off biting the bullet and buying a machine that’s worthwhile. With the recent boom in manufacturing, lots of companies are upgrading to the latest and greatest and selling some really nice used machines for incredibly cheap. This is probably overkill for your needs, though.


If you want to cut ply and maybe some delrin/nylon with okay results, in which case a hobby machine would be adequate.

I cut everything i need, even 6061 aluminum below is an aft centering ring 98mm to 6" with aeropack 98MM flange bolt pattern. Second pic is a motor retainer for a king viper III, the machine is basically a cheap asian CNC. Works good can even do engravings which lead me to start making molds.

I built and run a 4x4 CNCRouterparts machine with NEMA 23 motors, Gecko G540 (I think they've discontinued this drive now...) and MACH 3. I built my own electronics box with the power supply, fans, etc. Vcarve Pro for CAD/CAM.

Their Pro level machines add additional stiffness and mass, while still shipping unassembled. They do make a table top machine. There is a lot to be learned in the assembly process-- you learn to be your own mechanic.

More is better, as has been alluded to here with talk of HAAS VMCs and CNC'ed manual mills. There are tradeoffs, of course. My girlfriend and I have moved my router 3 times, just the two of us. It's not fun, but I didn't have to hire riggers and electricians.

There is a lot of attention paid to accuracy and repeatability and those things are nice. It's great to get round circles and have all the fins come out the same. You can adjust your cut file to get the fit you're looking for with interlocking joints, etc. But the purchase decision has to weigh your TOLERANCE. This is key. For rocketry the tolerance is, in many cases, out of your control. The tubes and materials just aren't that good. Look at how much masking tape is used in the hobby! ;-) Gantry routers provide features in exchange for tolerance. Huge cutting areas, high speed, vacuum table clamping, etc.

I need to convert 3'x4' sheets of material into 36+ fins all alike all at once. I need the big format. Fin dimensions are not super critical. My big customer stack sands all the holding tabs off and probably takes 0.005 off in the process. Part tolerance is low. Rings and plates- these are a little more important. I don't make them in huge sheets and watch the process a bit more. Depending on the size of the ring I can manage something like .003. But if you measure carefully, the OD of the tube will show a taper or that it's out of round...

All metal. Drive the gantry from both sides (slave the two drives together). Screw drives will limit movement speed , or precision. Spindle runout (router motors) will introduce error. Water cooled spindles are a PITA. Servo drives are expensive, so are NEMA 34 steppers and their drives. Touch off plates and auto zeroing isn't necessary. I don't run limit switches, either. VFD and 3 phase spindles are awesome. Get a bigger cutting area than you think you'll need.

N
UpscaleCNC

rc dude said:

I'm not sure how big of a router you are looking at, but I've used a 4'x4' CNC Router Parts router before, and it worked flawlessly. It ran with Mach3CNC from a computer, so it was easy to go from Solidworks to part on one computer. They are expensive, but rigid and fast. I was cutting an airfoil mold out of foam at 300+ IPM.

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Yes, that looks like a nice machine, so does the MillRight machine.

Here is the 5 axis (X, Y, Z, A, B) CNC I was looking at. It is limited to a 4.25 (x,y) - 2.5 (z). By the time you add some accessories you're in the 7-8 range.

I looked at all sorts of machines about 2 years ago. Gave up and went the cheap route....I got Wingarcher's email instead.

mpitfield said:

Here is the 5 axis (X, Y, Z, A, B) CNC I was looking at. It is limited to a 4.25 (x,y) - 2.5 (z). By the time you add some accessories you're in the 7-8 range.

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I got see one run at IMTS, they’re some really cool little machines! Not too bad a price when you consider what it can do.

Banzai88 said:

I looked at all sorts of machines about 2 years ago. Gave up and went the cheap route....I got Wingarcher's email instead.

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Nat has been cutting all my stuff for years, so I can't agree more that he is great to deal with and fantastic value, but I have the itch to do more including home projects. Essentially stuff that is not reasonable to ship to Canada and or stuff that I can wait to pick up on my drop in visits to pick up my load and have a beer with him and Michelle.

KC3KNM said:

I got see one run at IMTS, they’re some really cool little machines! Not too bad a price when you consider what it can do.

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Yeah for the price the machine has value, but it's range is too limiting for me. Would be a great machine to get if I already had the larger work horse CNC like the large bed of the Shapeoko XXL, and of course if I could justify spending the additional money, which I cannot. Cool tool though!

I was a machine operator for years, worked on 2 different industrial machines, 3 phase spindles, servo motors with a tolerance of .0001, no lack of power or speed on those machines. My desktop asian CNC is far from it, it has been able to do everything i've wanted though. I don't use Mach 3 or 4, i use fusion 360 for cad/cam and it has a rotary axis option.

Used my Shapeoko XXL for my L3 bird, including 3/8 G10 fins and 1/8 aluminum (6061) centering/thrust rings, and of course various other parts.
Https://sites.google.com/view/richsl3simplerocketbuild

ShopBot man here. Once you get one, your other tools get a lot less use!

Yup. These hobby machines aren't going to be as accurate or as fast as a pro VMC. They can do some great work though, if you keep within the speeds and feeds they can handle.

For what we're doing, we don't need 0.0001" accuracy. We also don't want the price tag that machine carries. At least I don't want to pay for it. Feel free to send me one though!

Wingarcher said:

I built and run a 4x4 CNCRouterparts machine with NEMA 23 motors, Gecko G540 (I think they've discontinued this drive now...) and MACH 3. I built my own electronics box with the power supply, fans, etc. Vcarve Pro for CAD/CAM.

Their Pro level machines add additional stiffness and mass, while still shipping unassembled. They do make a table top machine. There is a lot to be learned in the assembly process-- you learn to be your own mechanic.,,,,,,,,,

There is a lot of attention paid to accuracy and repeatability and those things are nice. It's great to get round circles and have all the fins come out the same. You can adjust your cut file to get the fit you're looking for with interlocking joints, etc. But the purchase decision has to weigh your TOLERANCE. This is key. For rocketry the tolerance is, in many cases, out of your control. The tubes and materials just aren't that good. Look at how much masking tape is used in the hobby! ;-) Gantry routers provide features in exchange for tolerance. Huge cutting areas, high speed, vacuum table clamping, etc........

All metal. Drive the gantry from both sides (slave the two drives together). Screw drives will limit movement speed , or precision. Spindle runout (router motors) will introduce error. Water cooled spindles are a PITA. Servo drives are expensive, so are NEMA 34 steppers and their drives. Touch off plates and auto zeroing isn't necessary. I don't run limit switches, either. VFD and 3 phase spindles are awesome. Get a bigger cutting area than you think you'll need.

N
UpscaleCNC

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All good points, Nat, I like your work, too. Agree on rocketry tolerances. But buying a HD machine, especially in the work you do, is paramount.
How do you keep the parts, like fins, from jumping all around once you cut them free?

ttabbal said:

Yup. These hobby machines aren't going to be as accurate or as fast as a pro VMC. They can do some great work though, if you keep within the speeds and feeds they can handle.

For what we're doing, we don't need 0.0001" accuracy. We also don't want the price tag that machine carries. At least I don't want to pay for it. Feel free to send me one though!

Click to expand...

No, we don’t need to chase tenths for most of what we’re doing. Depending on the part and material, that .010” or so that you’re holding begins to become an issue when your machine isn’t straight or square due to cutting loads. The Z-X gantry machines introduce a lot of flex into the machine. The gantry sliding along the Y also provides another area for squareness to suffer. Using routers rather than spindles can cause issues due to the router bearings not being designed to handle the loads, compared to a proper spindle. Plus, the runout on routers can be significantly worse than a proper spindle. “How accurate is accurate enough?” Is the question.

Obviously one can oversize centering rings and wrap motor casings in tape to make up for less than perfect circles, but as you progess, most people want to make more advanced things. The limitations of the machine might not allow for that. Buying a VMC is probably overkill for most people, but if you’re looking for more than a hobby machine, and you have the space, you can find a Haas VF series machine for under 10k and then make parts for everyone else, too.

Dave A said:

From what I saw, the MillRight Power Router and the Shark HDs are good machines, again this is my opinion:
1) I prefer the metal rails and guides, instead of lighter beams and roller wheels.
2) Belt drives are great for large printer plotters, if you plan to do a enough work and want rigidity, then servos driving ball screws for movement is better.
3) Some machines will have plastic carriages, carriage rigidity is important. Grabbing the top and bottom of your router and pull and push slightly. You would be surprised in the play some of them have.
4) If you want to do deep cuts that require multiple cutting paths to achieve it: repeat ability is important.

I am still on my quest to build my ultimate machine, I currently learning the parts to all the controls.
I want to find a DIY control system that I can adapt to my table. I saw some videos of some guys buying all the boards, doing all this script writing and programming to make it work. That is one phase I want to avoid.

Click to expand...

There was another thread a few months ago

https://www.rocketryforum.com/threads/cnc-for-rocket-part-cutting.145316/

Regarding (2): How much work is "enough work" What kinds of volumes do you plan to run, and what materials do you plan to cut?

Dave A said:

How do you keep the parts, like fins, from jumping all around once you cut them free?

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You leave tabs connected to the waste stock in the CAD design. They can be surprisingly small and thin. Just enough to keep the part from flying across the shop.

Vcarve Pro (and other Vectric products) automates the addition of tabs (they're added in during the toolpath creation process, not drawn into the parts) to hold parts in place. The bigger issue is either finding downcut tooling or dealing with the tendency of upcut tools to lift thin material. I do a lot of manual holding things down with a stick to keep the tool from lifting the material and flapping it up and down. A vacuum table would make this unnecessary.

There are a couple "levels" of hobby cnc router. Many of the lower level are pretty weak, not rigid, etc. When you get to the level of CNCrouterparts, or k2CNC or shopbot things are pretty good. My router is no-where near a -+ 0.010 tolerance. If you want a better (longer lasting) machine, looking into something from Camaster is a good idea. The Stinger line is a good introduction into "real" linear bearings and heavy welded machines. Wildman runs a 4x8 stinger. Downside...... they ship assembled. They're heavy! The 2'x3' stinger weighs 450lbs.

Router motor bearings are designed for side-loads. I almost never use a 1/4" tool (it's all 1/8 or 1/16 and for one product, 3/32) and I cut (with a 1/8) at 60ipm in plywood at a 1/8" DOC. Not a big load compared to the profiling cutters they're designed for. The runout is constant (it's a wobble that makes the bit cut bigger than it really is) and can be compensated for. The first 3 years of my biz I ran PC 892 routers and used up two of them. Not from stress, but from running for hours and hours. The top bearings got tired. My 1.5 kW chinese spindle has better bearings in it and more power. For someone considering a small cnc router, a router motor is a great choice. Maybe buy some high quality collets from PreciseBits to improve the runout a little. It's a $100 motor, the spindle and VFD is more like $500 for chinese, way more for USA. A guy who wants to make some rocket parts will do just fine with a router motor. Buy a CNC machine that makes the router motor look a little small.

I'd suggest a Camaster stinger benchtop model WAY before a HAAS VMC that requires high pressure air, 3 phase wiring, and comes with a low RPM spindle. The HAAS mini-mill (12x16) weighs 3400 lbs! A VF1 from 1995 I found listed weighs 6400 lbs and wants 40A 240V 3phase.

N

Shapeoko XXL... trying to get enough users to make a group buy for an aluminum base on the Facebook Shapeoko Users Group, Any takers here?

ttabbal said:

You leave tabs connected to the waste stock in the CAD design. They can be surprisingly small and thin. Just enough to keep the part from flying across the shop.

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I find that double-side tape (the crepe-backed stuff) means I don't need to use tabs often.

I put together this video for people who have no experience with a 3D router and are interested in seeing what's involved:
jcrocket.com/cnc-routing-intro.shtml

Wingarcher said:

Vcarve Pro (and other Vectric products) automates the addition of tabs (they're added in during the toolpath creation process, not drawn into the parts) to hold parts in place. The bigger issue is either finding downcut tooling or dealing with the tendency of upcut tools to lift thin material. I do a lot of manual holding things down with a stick to keep the tool from lifting the material and flapping it up and down. A vacuum table would make this unnecessary.

There are a couple "levels" of hobby cnc router. Many of the lower level are pretty weak, not rigid, etc. When you get to the level of CNCrouterparts, or k2CNC or shopbot things are pretty good. My router is no-where near a -+ 0.010 tolerance. If you want a better (longer lasting) machine, looking into something from Camaster is a good idea. The Stinger line is a good introduction into "real" linear bearings and heavy welded machines. Wildman runs a 4x8 stinger. Downside...... they ship assembled. They're heavy! The 2'x3' stinger weighs 450lbs.

Router motor bearings are designed for side-loads. I almost never use a 1/4" tool (it's all 1/8 or 1/16 and for one product, 3/32) and I cut (with a 1/8) at 60ipm in plywood at a 1/8" DOC. Not a big load compared to the profiling cutters they're designed for. The runout is constant (it's a wobble that makes the bit cut bigger than it really is) and can be compensated for. The first 3 years of my biz I ran PC 892 routers and used up two of them. Not from stress, but from running for hours and hours. The top bearings got tired. My 1.5 kW chinese spindle has better bearings in it and more power. For someone considering a small cnc router, a router motor is a great choice. Maybe buy some high quality collets from PreciseBits to improve the runout a little. It's a $100 motor, the spindle and VFD is more like $500 for chinese, way more for USA. A guy who wants to make some rocket parts will do just fine with a router motor. Buy a CNC machine that makes the router motor look a little small.

I'd suggest a Camaster stinger benchtop model WAY before a HAAS VMC that requires high pressure air, 3 phase wiring, and comes with a low RPM spindle. The HAAS mini-mill (12x16) weighs 3400 lbs! A VF1 from 1995 I found listed weighs 6400 lbs and wants 40A 240V 3phase.

N

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What kind of tolerances are you holding? +/- ten thou isn’t incredibly tight. Is this in aluminum? I figure it’d be a butt pain to cut ply to anything super tight based on the nature of the material.

While routers are designed for side load, they’re not made to handle the loads seen in aluminum (as modest as they are). Not to mention that routers are typically much higher RPM than spindles. Too high of an spindle speed can be as bad or worse than too low. The Dewalt 611, for example, is 16-27k RPM. Going for 280 SFM in 6061 with a 1/8” endmill, you’re shooting for around 8500 RPM. You’ll burn through tooling much quicker than you’ll need to with spindle speeds that high and likely end up with some poor cuts.

It’s not that insane to have a VMC in a garage. When I was in high school I ran parts for a small RC car company based in a guy’s garage. He had a Fadal 914-15 VMC that he bought after fighting with a router for a few years. I’m not saying you need a full machine shop to cut aluminum properly, but a CNC router just doesn’t lend itself to cutting anything more than plastics and wood well. We had an industrial AXYZ router in my high school’s shop class and it still struggled with soft metals despite weighing a few thousand pounds. Having your spindle on a gantry is great for large workspaces and thin materials, but it hurts you when it comes to stiffness.

To reiterate again, I’m not saying routers are bad or worthless. If you’re not cutting anything incredibly hard or aren’t worried about stiffness, they’re fine. The OP seemed to stress the want for stiffness and I’m not sure he’d be satisfied with a router.