38mm Deuces Wild Upscale

So while the idea of up scaling a Deuces Wild is not original or new I hope to bring to the table some different ways of doing things. To start there is A LOT of focus on the motor mount and trying to get it exactly right. Alignment is absolutely critical and I think I'm okay - I hope. Started with making the rear bulkhead (not really a centering ring) by cutting out two half-moon shapes exactly opposite of each other. Then making a 15 degree triangle piece of wood. That triangle is then glued as close to perpendicular as possible.



Next I need a way of retaining motors that might be a tad bit longer that the mount itself. I found these handy little hobby strips with little holes in them at Home Depot. I bent one end and then glued them to the motor tubes. Now I can cut whatever length of threaded rod I need with a wing nut on one end to hook onto the motor end. I might show this later if this doesn't make sense. These metal pieces will get thoroughly glued into place and then wrapped with some 6oz glass to make absolutely sure they don't move.



Here is a close up with the metal smeared with Rocketpoxy. Prior to this step I used JB Weld between the metal and phenolic tube . Covering with the Rocketpoxy here will smooth over the sharp edges for fiberglassing.

So on the 18mm Deuce the two motor tubes go through the forward bulkhead. Instead of doing that and cutting out some funky shaped holes why not just have the motor tubes glue right to the bottom of the forward bulkhead and that bulkhead is very precisely glued to a coupler. That means the two motors will push on the bulkhead and short coupler which will all be secured glued inside the body tube.



Here again, alignment is absolutely critical. So with the use of 2 pieces of angle I aligned the rear bulkhead with the forward one and then it was time to glue.



And once the epoxy set...time to bust out the fiberglass and put a few layers on...



While I am not completely sure I am going to use motor ejection I sure hate to build it so I don't have the option at all:



Everything that might get blasted at close range with ejection charges got a coating of epoxy...this is from inside the coupler:

For the last major step completed so far I cut the gigantic fins tonight. These things have their own zip code. Once cut with a circular saw fitted with a plywood blade there is no way to cut these buggers exactly the same or perfectly straight. So the bottoms of all of these are already straight. I taped them across the bottom and then used 2 sided tape between all of them.



The next step is to grind the edges of all the fins with a bench sander so they are all straight and the same. Here's a photo of how I hold it. Of course the sander isn't on as I am trying to hold the wood and take a photo at the same time.



And of course everything comes out nice and straight:

Oh, and look what came in the mail today...A nice 4" Phoenix nose cone that kinda looks like the Deuce nose...

Glue drying time so off to update the thread lol.

Time to cut the body tube tonight with my favorite Dremel bit of all time. Don't know where I'd be without that thing.



Test fit...trim a little more...test fit...rinse, repeat ad nauseam.



Remember the odd motor retention I am using? Yeah well here it is...it's pretty hick-a-billy but it works.



Lastly, I need a way to attach the shock cord so I cut a hole through the bulkhead and ran a thick tubular nylon and slathered it up with Rocketpoxy...Think I used enough lol?

DAllen said:

Glue drying time so off to update the thread lol.

Time to cut the body tube tonight with my favorite Dremel bit of all time. Don't know where I'd be without that thing.

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Test fit...trim a little more...test fit...rinse, repeat ad nauseam.

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Remember the odd motor retention I am using? Yeah well here it is...it's pretty hick-a-billy but it works.

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Lastly, I need a way to attach the shock cord so I cut a hole through the bulkhead and ran a thick tubular nylon and slathered it up with Rocketpoxy...Think I used enough lol?

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I like your motor retention idea

Cool build; I LOVE canted clusters.

A couple points:

(1) your motor retention looks very workable. You could search the forum for a couple of pictures of my Mega Der Drei Max for another way of doing it.

(2) At least as critical as alignment is the position of the center of gravity. In fully loaded condition, you want the focus of the motor mount (the point where the centerlines of the motor tubes intersect) to be approximately halfway between the CG and the center of pressure ["Clustered Rocket Design," by Mark Page, High Power Rocketry, May/June 1993]

I'm looking forward to seeing this as it unfolds!

That motor retention is a really, really big no-no. You don't want anything hanging over the end of a snap ring case and impeding the exhaust flow. Heat will build at that point and damage your case.

Always grab snap ring cases by the spiral thrust ring or on the very edge of the end of the case like AeroPack's do.

Ah, I just realized that the wing nut appears to be over into the nozzle/exhaust area.

Here is a picture of what I did with the 29mm Drei Max, just hooking the aft closure of the CTI motor. Perhaps you could fashion something that would be able to bolt onto your existing retention clip?

wfcook said:

Ah, I just realized that the wing nut appears to be over into the nozzle/exhaust area.

Here is a picture of what I did with the 29mm Drei Max, just hooking the aft closure of the CTI motor. Perhaps you could fashion something that would be able to bolt onto your existing retention clip?

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Bill, really nice and clean!

DanP said:

That motor retention is a really, really big no-no. You don't want anything hanging over the end of a snap ring case and impeding the exhaust flow. Heat will build at that point and damage your case.

Always grab snap ring cases by the spiral thrust ring or on the very edge of the end of the case like AeroPack's do.

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It won't be over the exhaust plume - I checked. Plus I'm not sure I am going to go with wing nuts anyways.

DAllen said:

It won't be over the exhaust plume - I checked. Plus I'm not sure I am going to go with wing nuts anyways.

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If it goes past the ID of the motor case, you'll have problems.

DanP said:

If it goes past the ID of the motor case, you'll have problems.

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It won't. I've been there done that. I will often use screen door clip in a similar config where it hangs over the edge. I just flew a J528 with it like that and there were zero issues. The clip wasn't even singed.

Now I might try to make something like what cook just showed just because it looks so danged good.

DAllen said:

It won't. I've been there done that. I will often use screen door clip in a similar config where it hangs over the edge. I just flew a J528 with it like that and there were zero issues. The clip wasn't even singed.

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+1. DanP it's only a (well two) 38mm motor(s). The nozzle exit is well within the diameter of the casing.

On my 98 mm Deuce, I just slit the motor tubes and used hose clamps to cinch the tube tight around the motor.

See post 106 for a pic https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?47449-Bigger-Deuce/page4

So I've been working furiously on this build but basically spinning my wheels. After cutting the fins they decided to warp - badly. The remedy I used was to glass them on both sides and then mash them between flat things to straighten them out as the resin cures. They're still warped slightly but it's a big improvement. And then there's the trying to surface mount gigantic fins and hold the fin steady as the glue dries. More on that later...

Anyways, I usually like to mount my rail buttons in such a way that they are replaceable which usually means a blind nut somehow mounted inside the rocket or a wood screw holding the button drilled into a centering ring. Didn't really care for either option so then I cut out some scrap pieces of body tube and well...Pictures do a better job of explaining it:





After I cut off the excess length of 6/32 bolt these will be surface mounted right to the side of the body tube.

So after about 4 or 5 attempts and different setups this is what I finally came up with to hold the fins as they cure:



It's not getting the fins absolutely perfect but it's pretty danged close and the fins are parallel to the centerline of the body tube. I'm pretty happy with the results so far. I just have to get more fiberglass from the local boat store so I can glass the fillets thoroughly.

And while I am waiting for the glue to dry look what I found. Ejection charge holders!



I am trying to get this done before the weekend and it isn't looking good. I might be able to since I have tomorrow and Friday off but I am not holding my breath. Not only that but it's starting to look more and more like Mother Nature is going to take a dump on our launch plans so I might be making a trip to Bong or Muskegon soon...

Here's the first shot of (almost) everything together.



Looking at the weather and my schedule over the next few days I just don't have it in me to finish this sucker before the weekend. There's so much yet to do and I don't have it in me to put in the time.

Well...the fins don't look right. Guess what, they aren't. The root chord and tip chord are way too long. I guess I did my maths wrong. No biggie really so it's an easy fix:



That looks better.

On a side note I just ordered a 18mm canted motor mount from Fliskits which works for BT-60 tubes and I'm going to find out how well this works in a Baby Bertha. I also got the 24mm version and those work with BT-70 sized tubing...any thoughts on what kit would be good with that?

Fillet time! Yay Rocketpoxy!

Typical set up with masking tape down either side of the fillet and this photo is right after the tape was removed obviously. Looks pretty good IMHO and once cured it'll be ready for some glassing right over the fillets. The dowels you see on the leading edge are there as trim pieces to just make the leading edges look nice. They'll be trimmed to the appropriate length when the epoxy sets.

DAllen said:

On a side note I just ordered a 18mm canted motor mount from Fliskits which works for BT-60 tubes and I'm going to find out how well this works in a Baby Bertha.

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I was also gonna suggest the Solar Warrior, which is quite sturdy and stable. Sorry no ideas for the BT70 version.

I'm really looking forward to seeing this thing fly. Well, a video anyway; Hope you get some good footage. I think a Deuces Wild is in my future, although incorporating one of those canted mounts into a scratch design is also an intriguing idea. Hmm...

Like seeing how other people made the Deuce's motor mounts. The motor retention i came up on my 38mm might be a little overkill but its easy to use and has taken quite a few hard hits on landing

AHansom said:

Like seeing how other people made the Deuce's motor mounts. The motor retention i came up on my 38mm might be a little overkill but its easy to use and has taken quite a few hard hits on landing

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I remember that project! That thing was awesome!

AHansom said:

Like seeing how other people made the Deuce's motor mounts. The motor retention i came up on my 38mm might be a little overkill but its easy to use and has taken quite a few hard hits on landing

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That's the one that inspired my retention design also. Great project!

And work resumes.

qquake2k said:

I just ran across this thread. Did you ever finish your Deuce?

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Well...no. Very long story short:

Work. More work. Work winds down for the winter so I have time to spend on this. Dislocate/break ankle slipping on some ice. Crutches suck. Still recovering.

So yeah, once I am back on my feet I should be able to start working on it. Don't really want to mess with it since I am hobbling 'round on my non-dominant foot. And of course, as soon as I am fully recovered it looks like work is going to start going crazy.

qquake2k said:

Yeah, life happens. Sorry to hear about your ankle.

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Thanks! Hasn't been all bad on the rocket building front. I did manage to build 3 Semroc kits while laid up because all of that work can be done sitting in one spot.

So this thing has been sitting in my workshop since BEFORE I broke my ankle?

Yeeeeesh

Time to get going on it again. My deadline now is December 8. Why? Because thats the next scheduled launch for Michiana Rocketry...

Here is one that I did using 2x38 mm and 3d printed motor mount (out of nylon/fiberglass for heat and strength) in 7.5 in FB tube.

I also have a 2x54 mm version using water jet 1/4 inch aluminum bulkheads. Will try to post pix of the motor mounts, but I need to down sample the images.

I love seeing people's Upscale Deuce designs.