Airline Employee Steals Plane
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The media reports wondered how he could have started the plane, since it involves a specified series of steps and he was not a licensed pilot. From my gaming days, many eons ago, I can tell you that there are flight simulators that are very realistic. From landing at specific airports in major cities complete with landmarks and runway configurations, to cockpit instrumentation layouts specific to each airplane model. To power up, taxi, and take off you have to perform the required steps in exact sequence. He mentioned in the audio that he played video games. He could have easily picked up the knowledge there. And IIRC, Microsoft Flight Simulator had the Dash 7 model in it's database 20 years ago.
As sad as this situation is, the greater tragedy occurs when a pilot or flight crew member snaps and takes the plane and passengers down with him. This has happened several times recently:
https://qz.com/370575/a-brief-history-of-pilots-deliberately-crashing-planes/
https://people.com/human-interest/p...light-370-60-minutes-australia-investigation/
The question is how to avoid this with better psychological screening. And therein lies a conundrum: do you pull a pilot exhibiting warning signs and deny him the opportunity to pursue his livelihood when he hasn't yet committed any crime, but might do so? Very shaky legal grounds if you ask me. How do you balance that with public safety?
As sad as this situation is, the greater tragedy occurs when a pilot or flight crew member snaps and takes the plane and passengers down with him. This has happened several times recently:
https://qz.com/370575/a-brief-history-of-pilots-deliberately-crashing-planes/
https://people.com/human-interest/p...light-370-60-minutes-australia-investigation/
The question is how to avoid this with better psychological screening. And therein lies a conundrum: do you pull a pilot exhibiting warning signs and deny him the opportunity to pursue his livelihood when he hasn't yet committed any crime, but might do so? Very shaky legal grounds if you ask me. How do you balance that with public safety?
Ok,
There is much emotional content here, but there is also much information that is just plain wrong.
The pilots in SLC who had to call MX to get into the cockpit is just wrong. Pilots can get into the cockpit, always.
We can also keep people out of the cockpit, always. For obvious reasons I'm not going to go into detail, but if the cockpit is empty the pilots can always get into it.
The incidents linked by kuririn were not US airlines. Procedures at US airlines largely mitigate this threat. Other counties are now adopting the procedure that has been in place here since 9/11.
As professional pilots we ARE screen regularly, both medically and psychologically. For me as a Captain it happens every 6 months, First Officers every year.
There are no keys for an airliner. Either mechanical or electronic.
There were failures here, by the airline and the airport. I'm sure they will be addressed, but not in public.
I have not seen anything more than whats been in the news, but I would guess that running out of fuel was not
the reason for the crash. The extent of the post crash fire leads me to believe that there was a significant amount
of fuel. If an engine failed it was most likely due to oil or fuel starvation due to inverted/ high bank angle aerobatics
that the dash 8 is not designed for.
The bottom line is everyone was lucky that there was only 1 fatality, it could have been much, much worse.
There is much emotional content here, but there is also much information that is just plain wrong.
The pilots in SLC who had to call MX to get into the cockpit is just wrong. Pilots can get into the cockpit, always.
We can also keep people out of the cockpit, always. For obvious reasons I'm not going to go into detail, but if the cockpit is empty the pilots can always get into it.
The incidents linked by kuririn were not US airlines. Procedures at US airlines largely mitigate this threat. Other counties are now adopting the procedure that has been in place here since 9/11.
As professional pilots we ARE screen regularly, both medically and psychologically. For me as a Captain it happens every 6 months, First Officers every year.
There are no keys for an airliner. Either mechanical or electronic.
There were failures here, by the airline and the airport. I'm sure they will be addressed, but not in public.
I have not seen anything more than whats been in the news, but I would guess that running out of fuel was not
the reason for the crash. The extent of the post crash fire leads me to believe that there was a significant amount
of fuel. If an engine failed it was most likely due to oil or fuel starvation due to inverted/ high bank angle aerobatics
that the dash 8 is not designed for.
The bottom line is everyone was lucky that there was only 1 fatality, it could have been much, much worse.
I look at it like this. Sure he had access to the flight line and aircraft due to his job, but he also had time to think and plan. It's "likely" that he did not just walk into work that day and come up with the idea. Well I think I am going to take this turbo prop for a spin and end things on my own terms. There was "likely" some pre-thought that went into this. The key here is, and no pun intended, is that given the time to think and plan... someone with the desire to cause harm could look at this as a massive opportunity. Not necessary to go into details here and give anyone ideas! But this was nothing in the sense of what could still happen easily today. I do believe the first thing that should be done is properly secure the aircraft, it’s an easy measure when weighed against the reasoning. Sure, someone with extreme intent/desire may find a way around a new security measure, but again let's not make it easy by just leaving the keys in it. (Figuratively)
Key code or codes from Pilot and Co-pilot, secure card access... something that is not too expensive. Something the airlines could deploy with minimal disruption to daily operations. Yes there are some highly secure options out there that would provide a much higher level of security but we know it's all about the cost. That's just the way it is.
So at this point, something easy that could shore up the current security gap while it's being reviewed by the FAA, HS... etc.
Key code or codes from Pilot and Co-pilot, secure card access... something that is not too expensive. Something the airlines could deploy with minimal disruption to daily operations. Yes there are some highly secure options out there that would provide a much higher level of security but we know it's all about the cost. That's just the way it is.
So at this point, something easy that could shore up the current security gap while it's being reviewed by the FAA, HS... etc.
Never said or implied that these incidents occurred only on US Airlines. But Americans DO fly internationally, you know.
According to the cockpit voice recorder, Lubitz was alive and breathing as the plane descended, while the captain—locked out of the cockpit—desperately pounded on the door to be allowed back in.
In a 2013 incident that resembled the Germanwings crash, a Mozambique Airlines flight was brought down deliberately by one of the pilots. The other pilot was locked out of the cockpit and pounded on the door, trying to gain entry. All 33 passengers aboard were killed.
(Underlines mine)
Again, never said pilots and flight crew weren't screened. Read the statement: "The question is how to avoid this with better psychological screening."
"The FAA requires that all pilots younger than age 40 have their medical certificates renewed annually, while pilots 40 and older must have them renewed every six months. Part of the medical examination involves an assessment of psychological condition, but there is no official mental health exam.
“The FAA does not expect the Examiner to perform a formal psychiatric examination,” the FAA guidelines state. “However, the Examiner should form a general impression of the emotional stability and mental state of the applicant.”
Like the FAA, the European Aviation Safety Agency, the authority that would have issued Lubitz’s certificate to fly, has general medical exams that touch on mental health, but it does not mandate routine mental health exams "
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I have first hand experience with the Dash 8, both the -200 and the -Q400. In fact, I worked as a mechanic for Horizon Airlines for several years working on the type. I can tell you that these aircraft do not have keys. No hot wiring required. In fact, pretty much every aircraft larger than a single engine Cessna (or Piper, Beechcraft, Mooney, etc. I know, I have worked on and ran pretty much all of them) doesn't have a key.
Most modern airliners are pretty easy to start. As I mentioned above, I used to work at Horizon Air, and I still have friends there, and from talking with them, the employee who stole the aircraft was a member of the tow team, a small group of ramp agents who are trained to power up the aircraft from a cold and dark state, and turn the APU on, and tune the radios. From there, it is a very easy process to start the engines. As a mechanic, I was certified to perform engine runs and taxi the aircraft, and there were many times where rampers would ask if they could tag along and watch. We would usually say yes if it wasn't going to be a long engine run.
boatgeek
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I think the real issue that FAA/DHS need to grapple with is that the physical access the employee had to the plane was basically the access needed to do his job. He was ground crew, so he had to be able to get in and out of the plane, push it back, tow it around the airport, fuel it, etc. If they had put locks on aircraft in 2003, he would have been one of the guys with a key. He didn't need the ability to start the plane, but I'm pretty sure there's a need for ground/maintenance crew to be able to do that. So they could lock gate ground crew out, but the next time an aircraft was stolen, it could be a maintenance person who needed to be able to start engines for testing.
The background checks and screening were supposed to be better than locks, but they didn't work this time.
The background checks and screening were supposed to be better than locks, but they didn't work this time.
Mine was first hand experience, post 9/11. I was sitting in the CRJ200, waiting to fly home, when it happened. The pilot and copilot couldn’t get in and they ended up calling a mechanic. The flight attendant announced that the flight crew had somehow locked themselves out of the cockpit. I have no idea if things have changed since then, but I know what I saw.
kuririn,
Read what I posted. And understand the context.
I will say it again.
If BOTH pilots are out of the cockpit, they can ALWAYS get back in.
If one pilot is up front, ALONE, the cockpit can be secured.
Obviously both pilots will NEVER be out of the cockpit in flight, but it does happen on the ground.
The cockpit can ALWAYS be opened then. Without a mechanic. Either the pilots did not know how to do it,
which is unbelievable, or another situation had occurred.
Also, your FAA medical information is incomplete. Just googling something does not always give you the complete
information, and it's irrelevant as this individual was not subject to FAA medicals.
As pilots we are background checked, medically and Psych checked at periodic times during our careers. But most importantly we are part of a crew of 2, each of us are up there, for long days, and we checkup on each other. We watch each other, as does EVERYONE we come in contact with during a workday. The system is not perfect, but so far its seems to work. I'm sure there will be changes as a result of this incident. The best security is that at each base we know one-another, sometimes very well, so we can spot divergent behavior.
If I had to guess, over the next few weeks it will come out that this individual showed some warning signs.
Read what I posted. And understand the context.
I will say it again.
If BOTH pilots are out of the cockpit, they can ALWAYS get back in.
If one pilot is up front, ALONE, the cockpit can be secured.
Obviously both pilots will NEVER be out of the cockpit in flight, but it does happen on the ground.
The cockpit can ALWAYS be opened then. Without a mechanic. Either the pilots did not know how to do it,
which is unbelievable, or another situation had occurred.
Also, your FAA medical information is incomplete. Just googling something does not always give you the complete
information, and it's irrelevant as this individual was not subject to FAA medicals.
As pilots we are background checked, medically and Psych checked at periodic times during our careers. But most importantly we are part of a crew of 2, each of us are up there, for long days, and we checkup on each other. We watch each other, as does EVERYONE we come in contact with during a workday. The system is not perfect, but so far its seems to work. I'm sure there will be changes as a result of this incident. The best security is that at each base we know one-another, sometimes very well, so we can spot divergent behavior.
If I had to guess, over the next few weeks it will come out that this individual showed some warning signs.
Of course people who always put the words “always” and “never” in upper case are never wrong. 
I agree, warning signs will be realized. They seem so much easier to spot after the fact. It’s still a tragedy.
I agree, warning signs will be realized. They seem so much easier to spot after the fact. It’s still a tragedy.
dr wogz
Fly caster
I fear to think what would have happened, or how this conversation would have gone if he had an accent or his name was Mustafa or Harjeet or...
Aren't' there also manuals aboard?
Aren't' there also manuals aboard?
I work for a business aircraft company and our airplanes have a printed Aircraft Flight Manual (AFM) in them. This details the steps for normal operation which would include the starting of the engines. So in this case all he would have needed to do was follow a few steps in the manual. Some companies have gone to electronic flight books that are on laptops or tablets. Being a ground crew member he would possibly had access to that as well. I have never started any of our airplanes but it wouldn't be that hard to do using the procedures in the AFM. This is just like any other of the horrendous acts that are being performed almost everyday in our society. All the security, gun control, etc in the world isn't going to stop it. These are all psychological problems. We need to figure out ways to catch and help people like this guy. Like Mach7 said the crews look out for each other. Most likely this guy just like others exhibited some different behaviors. The problem comes for the general public, family, friends, etc to be able to help/stop the people without ruining the person's life/career when they are just having a tough time and aren't suicidal or are part some terrorist organization. Everyone talks about racial profiling this could become just as bad or worse. But we have to try. Again like Mach7 said it's up to everyone to watch out for our friends, family, & co-workers and help them or get help for them if they are becoming despondent.
mach7,
I have read and understood your prior post.
In the incidents cited, the problem was one crew member snapping and locking out the rest of the flight crew. There was no procedure for the locked out pilot to override the door lock and regain entry to the cockpit. And even if there was, anyone else could use that same procedure to gain access to the cockpit.
The best we can hope for is periodic psych evaluation. But some will still fall through the cracks. Witness the JetBlue pilot in 2012 who experienced a mid-flight breakdown, forcing passengers and crew to subdue him. He had no known mental health issues, and had never raised an alarm.
Unfortunately, sometimes even with the best precautions in place, things will happen. HAVE A GOOD DAY!
Andrew_ASC
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Carenado used to release flight simulator addons, for Cessnas. They were accurate enough to assist in real life training for a Cessna 152 from my student pilot days. I hold a valid student medical and have soloed. Post 9/11 flight sims were harder to find and download. Microsoft got out after FSX. Xplane still makes one.
The stock flight simulators are mildly ok. Once you go payware addons every switch functions with clicking rather than touching. The pilot operating handbooks were down to the tail number excluding real use. But line for line it’s that realistic. The inertia on landing is different from sim to real. The real deal held its airspeed on landing longer.
The sims are twitchy compared to real. In real it’s all fluid and you feel control forces. Again, it’s down to user intentions.
I think this poor dude just snapped someday at work. This current day and age they won’t forgive you for stealing an airliner, they (The Air Force not rent a mall cop) eventually will blow you out of the sky if you are deemed a unauthorized user posing a grave threat to others. This guy crashed it on a remote island likely when he realized he couldn’t land it beyond his ability or B) the military was going to end it. My opinion, a guy committed suicide by stealing an airliner. Barrel rolling an airliner will snap a wing spar if 1G loading isn’t held. Only Tex Johnson and Bob Hoover barrel rolled non aerobatic aircraft but they were like nfl stars of piloting dudes.
Listening to the audio: I think this dude needed a counselor. But what his actions were that day were so unforgivable and moronic if not suicidial that it didn’t end well.
The stock flight simulators are mildly ok. Once you go payware addons every switch functions with clicking rather than touching. The pilot operating handbooks were down to the tail number excluding real use. But line for line it’s that realistic. The inertia on landing is different from sim to real. The real deal held its airspeed on landing longer.
The sims are twitchy compared to real. In real it’s all fluid and you feel control forces. Again, it’s down to user intentions.
I think this poor dude just snapped someday at work. This current day and age they won’t forgive you for stealing an airliner, they (The Air Force not rent a mall cop) eventually will blow you out of the sky if you are deemed a unauthorized user posing a grave threat to others. This guy crashed it on a remote island likely when he realized he couldn’t land it beyond his ability or B) the military was going to end it. My opinion, a guy committed suicide by stealing an airliner. Barrel rolling an airliner will snap a wing spar if 1G loading isn’t held. Only Tex Johnson and Bob Hoover barrel rolled non aerobatic aircraft but they were like nfl stars of piloting dudes.
Listening to the audio: I think this dude needed a counselor. But what his actions were that day were so unforgivable and moronic if not suicidial that it didn’t end well.
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Andrew_ASC
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There were some in the home built aircraft community so ignorant as to not take flight training after building a kit plane, they try to test fly it, and sadly most of those stories ended in one fatality too. The odds of a non pilot landing a plane are slim to none first time ever. In trainers they teach this step by step. You learn turns and stalls before they let you land.
Ok, I'll try this one more time.
As I posted before.
In the US, and now in Europe there are procedures to prevent one pilot from locking out the other.
That's good to know. And checking your prior posts, that was never stated. But, as I said, hope you have a good day.
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Several factual things wrong with this. I'll break it down.
Carenado is still very much in business, and still sells plenty of Cessna models for FSX, P3D, and Xplane. Post 9/11, flight sims were not harder to find, in fact, they increased in popularity. Yes, Microsoft got out of the flight sim business after the add on for FSX was released. They licensed FSX to Lockheed, and Lockheed is now marketing it as P3D, with regular updates and improvements. I have most of the Carenado sim models, as well as the PMDG Boeings, and the now evil Majestic Q400 model for my P3D V3/4 on my computer.
I see nothing to disagree with here
Airliners are designed to withstand over 150% of their design load, which is great than 1G in most instances, so wings are designed to withstand over 2Gs. Also, plenty of people have rolled non aerobatic aircraft, not just Tex Johnson or Bob Hoover. Do a quick google search, you will find plenty of evidence.
Andrew_ASC
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This dude wasn’t a pilot.
I am calling BS on this one. I am not a pilot, although I am an engineer with an interest in that area. I have flown aerobatics as a birthday treat a few years back in an L-39 Albatross.
I actually got some time on a 757 sim (full-blown pilot training with motion etc...) about 20 years back and I was able to approach the airport and land the FIRST TIME. After that I eased up a little on the care I was applying and bingled it a few times. Still landed it a few times more during the session. On my third takeoff I was served an engine failure at V2 and still managed to keep the bird in the air while I trimmed it out and got some altitude happening. I had never done a takeoff or landing in real aircraft or simulators before that.
Barrel-rolling an aircraft can be one of the most gentle maneuvers you can do on an aircraft. Very impressive to see and the loading need never exceed nominal forces.
Andrew_ASC
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Call BS. I soloed a real Cessna not a sim. It’s a different feeling without an instructor pilot in the right seat to unf___k your mistakes. A complex aircraft such as a Dash Q400 no walk in the park. They don’t even full stall a phenomen 300 in a certified sim my father does as an ATP. The fear factor affects individuals differently. You were fine. You didn’t just steal an aircraft. That poor guy had additional stressors.
True. Humans are a very variable bunch.
Flyfalcons
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He never intended to land.
KC3KNM
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Uh, big planes like that do not have keys.....
https://aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/3015/do-planes-have-keys
And even if it did need a key, most likely an employee with that kind of job would have had access to it anyway.
Unfortunately there have been some airline pilots who decided kill themselves this way, but had PASSENGERS onboard when they did it.
https://aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/3015/do-planes-have-keys
And even if it did need a key, most likely an employee with that kind of job would have had access to it anyway.
Unfortunately there have been some airline pilots who decided kill themselves this way, but had PASSENGERS onboard when they did it.
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KidRockET
Epstein didn't kill himself
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Why?
dr wogz
Fly caster
KidRockET
Epstein didn't kill himself
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Yes, what are you afraid of?
Encouraging a comment that would get the entire thread locked, perhaps?
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