Wildman Drago 4

My initial impression is that in spite of being a "kit," this rocket is surprisingly incomplete.

Since I got into HPR I've built a number of kits from PML, LOC Precision, and MAC Performance. The PML and LOC kits have been the most complete, containing everything including hardware and recovery. The LOC didn't include a motor retainer. The MAC kit had a short kevlar shock cord and quick link but no additional recovery. No problem, just needed a motor retainer, longer cord and a chute.

This Wildman kit contained all of the fiberglass components but nothing else aside from center-drilled aluminum AV bay bulkheads. And no instructions. The FG parts are great and seem to fit pretty well, although the switch band was cut uneven and I had to straighten it out.

I found this kind of surprising.

I'm a machinist and I've built a number of HPR rockets, so this situation was nothing I couldn't handle. I drilled and tapped the AV bulkheads, rounded up all the hardware, bought all the recovery gear and got it fitted and installed, no problem.

But I have to ask...if someone isn't a machinist and/or hasn't built a variety of L1 and L2 rockets, what would they think when they got this kit? The website should probably say "contains only fiberglass parts, unfinished AV bulkheads, and nothing else."

The Wildman site does tend to cater to the self-sufficient rocketeer, BUT, they have great service and are sure to help with anything you want to know or need. Let's face it - who doesn't modify their kits in one way or another? Wildman give you the bare necessities and allow you to pick and choose the parts you want, without having to pay for stuff you won't use, or already have. In my experience, they've been happy to supply a kit with modified parts from the standard config, too. If you have a problem with a part (not everyone is a machinist) they will get you fixed up. I experienced that myself recently where a replacement part has been sent to me in Australia without fuss and they wouldn't accept any money when I offered to pay (on a kit I bought 3 years ago, at that).

That said, you're right - the website could do with a little more information on kit configurations than there currently is ( psst, @troj ). Fortunately, they answer emails if you have any questions.

Although I agree that his website could use some improvement & I have personally told him such, he does have a link for instructions for most kits. Instructions link
You don't need to be a genius to make them suit any kit. Even Madcow doesn't provide instructions for all their kits. When Rocketry Warehouse was around, I don't think they provided any instructions. And there are plenty of build threads on this forum to help you build just about any sport rocket. I'd even bet the majority of us aren't even machinists!

Wildman has fantastic service. Many of the kits are bare bones, but the parts are top notch quality.

Most HPR kits do not come with a retainer or recovery gear. Allows freedom of choice. Some people would refuse to buy a kit if it came with a parachute they didn't like, or forced them to use an Aeropack when they wanted a slimline, whatever.

Here's a little checklist I put together years ago to help reduce shipping costs.

The rocket
AV sled
Switchband
Retainer
Hardware (allthread, nuts, eyebolts, washers, swivels, quick-links)
Rail buttons/guides
Main parachute
Drogue parachute (optional)
Harnesses
Electronics (if not reusing)
Adhesives
Tools and build supplies
Charge wells
AV wiring
Battery/holder

Extra CR (optional)
Shear pins (optional)
Plactic rivets (optional)

Clustering accessories (optional)
Chute/harness protection (optional)
D-bag, pilot chute, etc. (optional)
Paint (optional)
Clear coat (optional)
Decals (optional)

His website does list what comes with the kit. It should be easy enough to see that recovery items and motor retainer are not included. Wildman does this so you can use or order your preferred hardware and are not charged for or left with leftovers you do not want. I prefer it that way as I’ve accumulated lots of extras from other kits. And as others have said, Tim is great to work with and is always available to help with questions. Also, if instructions are needed just search for any of CJ’s build threads on many of WM’s kits and you should be able to apply those techniques to just about any build. Way better than one or two pages of printed instructions.

For most vendors Fiberglass kits are the fiberglass parts needed to complete it , the rest is a separate purchase . Alot of the modern altimeters use a cable or lcd to program like the RRC3 or Raven but the cables are not included in the price .

I don't miss paper kit 'prices' , fragility or the work in finishing (and refinishing) them . Maybe its a price thing for me , like the Estes PSII at $70ish didn't ring my bell but was cheaper than LOC and AT it seemed ..but at $30 I want more .

Also because I have built some FG kits, I now build my PSIIs and other class 1 paper rockets differently . I may substitute a bigger MMT or at least longer and not used the supplied one . I will encapsulate some kevlar to the MMT to use as a bridle like the fg rockets . Also will do some acme rail guides or rail buttons instead of lugs . The aeropack retainers are not cheap, but once you have some caps/closures ..you can buy the base only and its not such a big investment , the system was designed to utilize adapters for more motor choices. My GForce was built for dual deploy - chucking the original coupler and substituting a bluetube one - then making some lids and a vent band as well as an upgraded mmt and aeropack retainer

Kenny

As others have said...
It's a shell kit with all parts listed on the page. The kits are sold as such because everyone likes to finish their rockets their own way. Various methods of harness attachment, various harnesses, various methods of retainer, various methods of rail guides, and tons of parachute options. And Wildman carries most of each of those options. Think of it as a la carte.
I'm glad he does it this way because I get to purchase only those things that I need and exactly what I want instead of having lots of little leftovers.
And the instructions are posted on the downloads page.
We're a very small, very niche community. We can't expect Amazon levels of webstores while also expecting prices to be what they are. I'd rather pay for rocket parts than fancy websites.

- what CZTeacherman said.. also, I buy things in bulk, like shock cord, or fiberglass to make av bay sleds, etc

muddymooose said:

My initial impression is that in spite of being a "kit," this rocket is surprisingly incomplete.

Since I got into HPR I've built a number of kits from PML, LOC Precision, and MAC Performance. The PML and LOC kits have been the most complete, containing everything including hardware and recovery. The LOC didn't include a motor retainer. The MAC kit had a short kevlar shock cord and quick link but no additional recovery. No problem, just needed a motor retainer, longer cord and a chute.

This Wildman kit contained all of the fiberglass components but nothing else aside from center-drilled aluminum AV bay bulkheads. And no instructions. The FG parts are great and seem to fit pretty well, although the switch band was cut uneven and I had to straighten it out.

I found this kind of surprising.

I'm a machinist and I've built a number of HPR rockets, so this situation was nothing I couldn't handle. I drilled and tapped the AV bulkheads, rounded up all the hardware, bought all the recovery gear and got it fitted and installed, no problem.

But I have to ask...if someone isn't a machinist and/or hasn't built a variety of L1 and L2 rockets, what would they think when they got this kit? The website should probably say "contains only fiberglass parts, unfinished AV bulkheads, and nothing else."

Click to expand...

Hi Muddymoose .
First off thank you for your purchase from WIldman's.
If you feel you have not gotten what you ordered please give us a call and we will attempt to rectify the situation.
With that said on the web page you ordered the kit from it specifically says "comes with" then lists the parts it comes with.
As can be seen here. https://wildmanrocketry.com/collections/wildman-4-inch-kits/products/drago-4

As far as instructions if you look under our downloads page you can find at least 3 different ways to build that rocket.
https://wildmanrocketry.com/pages/downloads

The bulk plates come premarked so you can use eye bolts or u bolts one all thread or 2 which ever you prefer. All you need is a normal drill and drill bits.

I am guessing the switch band had the normal "tab" from cutting

We do carry complete kits also. Our extreme line of kits comes with almost everything except the retainer and chutes and our hardware is One Bad Hawk stainless steel, with welded eye bolts, with HQ tubular nylon that is made for hanging people off the side of a mountain and Kevlar cords. Our Mini kits all come with chutes, Kevlar shock cords and rail buttons or launch lugs.

We here at Wildman's prefer not to use bent wire open eye bolts, elastic shock cord , the cheap tubular nylon , zinc nuts,washers, quick links, ect.
And if I wouldn't use it why would i put it in your kit.

matthew said:

That said, you're right - the website could do with a little more information on kit configurations than there currently is ( psst, @troj ). Fortunately, they answer emails if you have any questions.

Click to expand...

I don't handle Tim's site anymore - he's got it 100% under control himself (with an occasional question here and there).

And yes, Tim is great about email and phone when folks have questions!

-Kevin

I have the Drago 4 XL kit and found nothing "missing". It is a builder's kit with all the basics for the airframe and ebay. I don't mind that it lacks hardware, motor retention, and recovery components because I have an inventory of such.

I added some Stickershock vinyl to give it a custom treatment. It fly's great.

Bat-mite said:

Most HPR kits do not come with a retainer or recovery gear. Allows freedom of choice. Some people would refuse to buy a kit if it came with a parachute they didn't like, or forced them to use an Aeropack when they wanted a slimline, whatever.

Here's a little checklist I put together years ago to help reduce shipping costs.

The rocket
AV sled
Switchband
Retainer
Hardware (allthread, nuts, eyebolts, washers, swivels, quick-links)
Rail buttons/guides
Main parachute
Drogue parachute (optional)
Harnesses
Electronics (if not reusing)
Adhesives
Tools and build supplies
Charge wells
AV wiring
Battery/holder

Extra CR (optional)
Shear pins (optional)
Plactic rivets (optional)

Clustering accessories (optional)
Chute/harness protection (optional)
D-bag, pilot chute, etc. (optional)
Paint (optional)
Clear coat (optional)
Decals (optional)

Click to expand...

This is a good list to remember on black Saturday. All the savings you think you are getting on that barebones kit goes up in smoke if you then have to purchase all the other stuff piecemeal afterwards (and pay shipping each time).

I don't think this was a "complaint" so much as a "critique" and ultimately perhaps just a learning experience for me. I'm not complaining about the kit, just pointing out that after having built a number of kits from other vendors, the "completeness" of this kit fell short of the competition. The fiberglass parts themselves are top-notch, great quality and fit. I was just a little surprised at what hardware the kit didn't include. After another look I did realize the website does not explicitly say it includes this hardware, so shame on me.

I did enjoy this kit and the final quality and construction is nice. Although I was initially surprised at the perceived lack of "completeness" I have learned this is how a lot of these FG kits ship out. I now appreciate how this allows for flexibility with the hardware and build. It was more of a learning experience to piece together adequate hardware and recovery myself rather than just rely on a box of parts. And now I'm starting to build up an inventory of hardware.

Really I hold nothing against Wildman, I just wanted to share what I thought could be a common initial perception about these kits. Now that I understand how Wildman does things, I get it. I'm still in the market for Wildman products, and specifically may well choose a Wildman for my L3. The Ultimate Darkstar in particular has had me drooling for a while.

muddymooose said:

I'm not complaining about the kit, just pointing out that after having built a number of kits from other vendors, the "completeness" of this kit fell short of the competition.

Click to expand...

This has pretty much been the case with fiberglass rockets since the Performance Rocketry days -- go read various reviews on rocketreviews.com.