USAF Hiding Its Controversial Flyoff Between the A-10 and F-35

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Winston

Lorenzo von Matterhorn
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The U.S. Air Force Is Hiding Its Controversial Flyoff Between the A-10 and F-35
The evaluation was already almost certain to provoke a passionate debate and new information suggests the service may be rigging the tests.
10 July 2018

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...ontroversial-flyoff-between-the-a-10-and-f-35

The U.S. Air Force has, without any apparent public announcement, begun a much-awaited comparative evaluation of the close air support capabilities of the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter versus the venerable A-10 Warthog. The event was already controversial before it even began and there is now evidence to suggest the service maybe be manipulating the test parameters to favor the stealthy fifth-generation fighter jet.
The Straus Military Reform Project at the Project on Government Oversight (POGO) was the first to reveal the tests have already started, according to a copy of the schedule that it got a chance to review. The evaluation began on July 5, 2018, and will last just one week, ending on July 12, 2018. Only four of those days involve actual flying. The Air Force had previously said the event would occur sometime in 2018, but did not offer a fixed timeline.

“They are staging an unpublicized, quickie test on existing training ranges, creating unrealistic scenarios that presuppose an ignorant and inert enemy force, writing ground rules for the tests that make the F-35 look good,” Dan Grazier, the Jack Shanahan Military Fellow at POGO, wrote on the organization’s blog and his analysis is worth reading in full. “And they got the new testing director, the retired Air Force general Robert Behler, to approve all of it.”

[complete description of the flyoff rules can be seen at the link above, but is not included here, and the analysis of those rules is excerpted below - there's even more at the link]

In his own analysis, Grazier noted that these test parameters give no weight to the A-10’s substantially greater endurance over the F-35, loiter time that can be essential during a close air support mission backing up troops in the middle of a battle that might last hours or even days. There is similarly no attempt to evaluate respective sortie rates, which is an important consideration "because combat doesn’t pause to wait for airplanes to become available,” as the Jack Shanahan Military Fellow wrote.

In addition, setting a 10,000-foot operational ceiling during the Yuma test day was particularly generous to the F-35, given that low cloud cover can often force aircraft to fly below 1,000 feet, an environment where the A-10 excels. There is also apparently no specific mention of highly specialized equipment to precisely gauge the accuracy of various simulated anti-aircraft threats, which Grazier warns could lead to subjective bias creeping into the post-evaluation analysis of the outcomes of all four days of evaluations.

And for unexplained reasons, neither the A-10s nor the F-35s were carrying either of their respective maximum weapon load outs in any of the events. The decision to only load the magazines for the Warthog's massive GAU-8/A Avenger cannon with less than half of the maximum number of 30mm cannon shells they can carry seems especially arbitrary.

There were also possible limits the ability of the F-35 to perform since there is no apparent comparative evaluation within the comparative evaluation that takes into account the jet in its full-stealth configuration versus the aircraft with its external weapons pylons installed. One clear possibility, which the POGO analysis notes, is that the Air Force made its decision to only load up the Joint Strike Fighters with just one 500-pound class bomb internally in order to lighten them and improve their maneuverability.
Otherwise, it would seem that the service had put the stealthy fighters at a distinct and equally artificial disadvantage when it comes to engaging multiple targets for no reason. That being said, we also don't know what the objective number of targets each type of aircraft had to hit was, or how else the evaluators assessed how well the planes "destroyed" their mock opponents, which could make this a moot point.

The test targets at Yuma themselves were another concerning element of the evaluation. There is no indication that the evaluators arranged the static and mobile vehicle type targets, or the stacked shipping containers standing in for structures, in such a way as to reflect a realistic close air support scenario. Yuma’s bombing range is relatively flat and open, which would make the mock threats easy to spot, as well.

This would all seem to be intended to help the F-35 pilots who would have to rely heavily on the aircraft's increasingly dated Electro-Optical Targeting System, which is based on technology that is now more than a decade old, to spot targets. Though the Joint Strike Fighter has the ability to fuse additional information from other sensors, such as the AN/APG-81 radar and AN/AAQ-37 Distributed Aperture System, as well as information from other aircraft, this is unlikely to be of much benefit in a close air support situation. Depending on how the test parameters take into account mock anti-aircraft defenses, this might give the F-35 an advantage by helping the jets to avoid those threats, though.

The F-35 also lacks the ability to engage moving targets when it’s not carrying one specific type of precision-guided bomb, an issue you can read about in more detail here, and doesn't have an an infrared pointer to help confirm targets with personnel on the ground. These are important tools in any close air support situation.

In contrast, A-10s can carry more recent iterations of Lockheed Martin’s Sniper Advanced Targeting Pod and Northrop Grumman’s LITENING targeting pod. It also has the onboard moving target and infrared pointer capabilities that the F-35 lacks.
 
As someone who knows a fair amount professionally about both platforms, this is an extremely biased article against the F-35 and for the A-10C. My guess is that the AF is keeping this so-called fly-off on the down low because it is a farce that no one actually wants to do--especially with the outcome all but already written.
 
This is worrisome... If any troops get killed because someone is playing to get their platform (jet) positioned better than the truly better option then that someone should be taken out and shot... repeatedly. :mad:
 
This is worrisome... If any troops get killed because someone is playing to get their platform (jet) positioned better than the truly better option then that someone should be taken out and shot... repeatedly. :mad:

Please look up the history of the M-16
 
Don't get me wrong, I am not at all (ever) against the A-10. That was the first jet I worked in the USAF when it was the A model. The jet was amazing in Afghanistan and elsewhere in an uncontested CAS role. In low to medium threat environments, it is the best platform to support the ground troops and always will be...until a better A-10 of the same design philosophy comes along. We cannot keep the A-10 flying forever, and the age/flying hours are taking a massive toll on this platform, as is the expense of maintaining it. And, the RCS is like a B-52--double digit SAMs have no trouble finding it from far, far away.

If you need to do just about anything else in a contested environment, with long range, low observability, fighting the ground and air threats we expect our adversaries to put forth in the next 30+ years, then you really, really need the F-35. Nothing else 4th Gen can compete with it. And, it can actually do a darned good job at CAS in conditions an A-10 cannot, like at night and in the weather (look up F-35 DAS). No, it doesn't carry a GAU-8. That's okay, as not every TIC needs that response or outcome. OCA, DCA, SEAD/DEAD, SA, BI and many other missions sets are well served by the Lightning II where the Hog cannot hope to compete.

BUT, this competition is not a fair and balanced comparison--this is more about emotion and "Save the Hog" angst. Of course the A-10 will come out on top. Doesn't mean it is the better jet overall by a wide margin. It's not a competition between the two. Our military needs BOTH of them, but we also need a new A-10 badly.
 
You say that, but the A-10 has more friendly fire incidents than any other plane.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/02/05/a-10-john-mccain-iraq-afghanistan/22931683/

In this case though more is statistically minute........

"While any loss of life is a great tragedy, in the context of tens of thousands of Air Force combat missions, this data is inconclusive and statistically insignificant to determining which weapon system is most effective in its primary mission, or at avoiding civilian casualties or friendly-fire incidents," Walker said."
 
You say that, but the A-10 has more friendly fire incidents than any other plane.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/02/05/a-10-john-mccain-iraq-afghanistan/22931683/

In some ways that's like saying that most pedestrian's killed by a vehicle impact are struck by cars--that doesn't surprise anyone. The A-10 does the most support for ground troops than any other platform by far, so it's not surprising what this article says (and, there's no such thing as friendly fire). If only you knew how hard our warfighters train to avoid this and how chaotic the pressures of combat can be--incidents don't simply happen in ideal circumstances with anything else than the best of intent. Doesn't make failures okay, but avoiding FF is taken very seriously by every CAS platform operator. This FF tangent has little to nothing to do with the F-35A and A-10C fly-off.
 
DoD Says A-10 vs. F-35 'Fly-Off' Is Over. But Will Results Satisfy?

https://www.military.com/daily-news...10-vs-f-35-fly-over-will-results-satisfy.html

RAF FAIRFORD, England -- While the congressionally mandated close-air support tests between the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter and A-10 Warthog wrapped up this week, lawmakers may not be satisfied with the results as questions continue to swirl about how each performed.

"I personally wrote the specific provisions in the [Fiscal 2017 National Defense Authorization Act] mandating a fly-off between the F-35 & A-10," Rep. Martha McSally, an Arizona Republican, tweeted Friday. "It must be carried out per Congressional intent & direction."

McSally, a former A-10 pilot whose home state includes Davis-Monthan Air Force Base, said she had reached out to Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. David Goldfein to "ensure an objective comparison."

The requirement that the two aircraft go up against each other was included as a provision in the bill amid congressional concerns over plans to retire the A-10 and replace it with the F-35. McSally was one of the architects of the bill's language.
Her comments follow a Project on Government Oversight report that slams what it calls skewed testing techniques, saying the flights overwhelmingly favored the F-35.

The watchdog organization, which obtained the Air Force's test schedule and spoke to unidentified sources relevant to the event, claimed that the limited flights also curbed the A-10's strengths while downplaying the F-35's troubled past and current program stumbles.

The Defense Department says it is complying with the required testing.

The JSF operational test team and other Initial Operational Test and Evaluation officials "faithfully executed" the F-35 vs. A-10 comparison test "in accordance with the IOT&E test design approved in 2016," and did so in compliance with 2017 NDAA requirements, said Army Lt. Col. Michelle L. Baldanza, spokeswoman for the Office of the Director, Operational Test and Evaluation (DOT&E).

The testing happened from July 5 to 12 at Edwards Air Force Base, California, Baldanza said in an email.
"The [Joint Operational Test Team] will continue to schedule and fly the remaining comparison test design missions when additional A-10s become available," she said.

She said the data points collected will add to the scope of the side-by-side comparison test.

The "matched-pair" fourth-generation A-10 and fifth-generation F-35A comparison test close-air support missions "are realistic scenarios involving a Joint Terminal Attack Controller (JTAC), surface-to-air threats, some live and inert air-to-ground weapons employment, and varying target types," which include "moving target vehicles and armored vehicles across different conditions," such as day and night operations and low-to-medium threat levels, Baldanza said.

"The challenging scenarios are designed to reveal the strengths and limitations of each aircraft," she said, referring to radars, sensors, infrared signatures, fuel levels, loiter time, weapons capability, electronic warfare and datalinks.
"Each test design scenario is repeated by both aircraft types while allowing them to employ per their best/preferred tactics and actual/simulated weapons loads," Baldanza said. "Therefore, references to individual scenarios or specific weapons loadouts will not reflect the full scope of the comparison test evaluation."

DOT&E will analyze the flight test data collected and results will be compiled in an IOT&E report as well as DOT&E's "Beyond Low-Rate Initial Production" report.

The reports will offer comparative analyses of "differences, strengths, and weaknesses of the F-35A versus the A-10 across the prescribed comparison test mission types [and/or] scenarios," the DoD said.

For these reasons, the Air Force has consistently avoided calling the highly anticipated test a "fly-off." Aviation enthusiasts and pilots have also said putting the two aircraft side-by-side remains an apples-to-oranges comparison.

In addition to a variety of rockets, missiles and bombs fastened to hardpoints under its wings, the A-10 most notably employs its GAU-8/A 30mm gun system, which produces an iconic sound that ground troops never forget.

"There's just nothing that matches the devastation that that gun can bring," A-10 pilot "Geronimo" said in the 2014 mini-documentary "Grunts in the Sky: The A-10 in Afghanistan." The nearly four-year-old footage was made public in January.
"The ground troops that I work with -- when they think close-air support, they think A-10s," Staff Sgt. Joseph Hauser, a Joint Terminal Attack Controller then based at Forward Operating Base Ghazni in Afghanistan, said in the footage.

But the F-35, a stealth platform with high-detection sensors that is expected to have a wide variety of munitions once its delivery capacity software is fully implemented, is meant to penetrate a contested airspace using its very-low-observable abilities.

Those qualities are what will get the fighter through the door before it performs a CAS-type role, officials say.
"In a contested CAS scenario, a JTAC would absolutely want to call this airplane in, and we practice just that," said Capt. Dojo Olson, the Air Force's F-35A Heritage Flight Team commander and a pilot with the 56th Fighter Wing at Luke Air Force Base, Arizona.

Olson spoke with Military.com during the Royal International Air Tattoo airshow here at RAF Fairford, England. "We practice close-air support, and we practice contested close-air support, or providing close-air support in a battlespace that is not just totally permissive to fourth-generation airplanes," he said.

"We foresee future combat environments where even in close-air support, even in counterinsurgency operations, there will be air defense systems," added Steve Over, F-35 international business development director. "And you need to have sensors that will be able to find the target."

The service has also expanded how it defines close-air support. For example, bombers such as the B-52 Stratofortress and B-1B Lancer can execute CAS missions -- but only by using precision-guided weapons.

"It may not do it the exact same way as legacy systems do," Over said. "The most prominent legacy close-air support platform that's currently in use is the A-10, and it uses a large Gatling gun on the nose of the aircraft."

He added that the F-35A model also has a Gatling gun -- the GAU-22/A four-barrel 25mm gun, made by General Dynamics. "But more than likely it's going to be using other precision-guided munitions" such as small-diameter or laser-guided bombs, he said.
[with 182 rounds while the A-10 carries "1,174 rounds, although 1,150 is the typical load-out", so, um, yeah, I'd say it's "more likely" that it would be using something else. - W]

Olson agreed.

"You can provide [CAS] from a precision-strike platform from tens of thousands of feet in the air, so there's a lot of different types of" the mission, he said. "Getting up close and personal like an A-10? Of course, the airplanes … they're apples and oranges."

Project on Government Oversight report
Close Air Support Fly-off Farce
F-35 Versus A-10 Fly-off Tests Designed to Mislead
10 Jul 2018

https://www.pogo.org/straus/issues/weapons/2018/close-air-support-fly-off-farce.html
 
As a taxpayer, I would really like that study to include cost-effectiveness. The #1 goal should be that the plane destroys its target on the first try, and the pilot and friendly ground forces are safe. Once that goal is met, I'm really interested in whether the ammunition and fuel to successfully complete that mission cost $1 million or $10,000. It was good to see in Winston's last post that the tests did at least look at contested vs. uncontested airspace. While the military needs to be able to do the former, an awful lot of recent (and likely future) missions have been in the latter.

A (maybe) stupid question--way back in the day, the Marines owned their CAS airplanes (the Harriers). Is there a serious move for the Army/Marines to take their CAS mission back from the Air Force? I believe there's some deal that the Army doesn't get to do fixed-wing planes in general, but it seems like CAS is such a specific mission that requires such close coordination with ground forces that it would be worth putting it in the same service that has the troops the plane is supporting. I guess you would run into questions about how close is close air support.
 
As a taxpayer, I would really like that study to include cost-effectiveness. The #1 goal should be that the plane destroys its target on the first try, and the pilot and friendly ground forces are safe. Once that goal is met, I'm really interested in whether the ammunition and fuel to successfully complete that mission cost $1 million or $10,000. It was good to see in Winston's last post that the tests did at least look at contested vs. uncontested airspace. While the military needs to be able to do the former, an awful lot of recent (and likely future) missions have been in the latter.
EXACTLY! The problem is money, but how many A-10s DO WE ACTUALLY NEED for those close air support missions against relatively unsophisticated adversaries. I find it very hard to believe that the F-35 at tens of thousands of feet can do as well as A-10s with brass gonad pilots down in the dirt with the troops they're trying to protect. On the required A-10 numbers, we're not talking about Cold War v1.0 Fulda Gap tank busting any more for which 716 A-10s were built!

From various places:

A-10 per hour cost "$11,500 compared to the F-22 Raptor’s $70,000".

"280 A-10s still in U.S. Air Force service, 173 have received new wings to keep them flying into the 2030s. The original re-winging contract with Boeing was for 242 sets of wings, but the contract ended when it was no longer cost-effective for the company, and the Boeing production line is closing later this year.

That left at least 110 A-10s high and dry without new wings, a state that threatened to ground them for good unless a solution was found, reducing the number of A-10 squadrons from nine to six. The Air Force, focused on getting the F-35A Joint Strike Fighter up and running, didn’t include a new wing contract it its 2018 budget. Congress, however added funding a new wing assembly line and four new wings to get it warmed up."


A (maybe) stupid question--way back in the day, the Marines owned their CAS airplanes (the Harriers). Is there a serious move for the Army/Marines to take their CAS mission back from the Air Force? I believe there's some deal that the Army doesn't get to do fixed-wing planes in general, but it seems like CAS is such a specific mission that requires such close coordination with ground forces that it would be worth putting it in the same service that has the troops the plane is supporting. I guess you would run into questions about how close is close air support.
If they did, I doubt they'd succeed because that could start a fixed-wing turf war like the one that brought about the A-10 in the first place:

Lockheed AH-56 Cheyenne

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_AH-56_Cheyenne

The never-produced AH-56 attack helicopter mentioned here:

Fairchild Republic A-10 Thunderbolt II

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairchild_Republic_A-10_Thunderbolt_II
 
As a taxpayer, I would really like that study to include cost-effectiveness. The #1 goal should be that the plane destroys its target on the first try, and the pilot and friendly ground forces are safe. Once that goal is met, I'm really interested in whether the ammunition and fuel to successfully complete that mission cost $1 million or $10,000. It was good to see in Winston's last post that the tests did at least look at contested vs. uncontested airspace. While the military needs to be able to do the former, an awful lot of recent (and likely future) missions have been in the latter.

A (maybe) stupid question--way back in the day, the Marines owned their CAS airplanes (the Harriers). Is there a serious move for the Army/Marines to take their CAS mission back from the Air Force? I believe there's some deal that the Army doesn't get to do fixed-wing planes in general, but it seems like CAS is such a specific mission that requires such close coordination with ground forces that it would be worth putting it in the same service that has the troops the plane is supporting. I guess you would run into questions about how close is close air support.
Not only with price, but parts availability is a large issue (which feeds cost of operation). When I worked avionics on the B-2 we had a hell of a time getting parts. I’ve not worked the A-10, but as it gets up in age not only do the airframes fatigue but the supply chain starts to struggle. It’s not as simple as “we’re short on FCCs, so let’s order some more”, sadly. Repair contracts are normally asinine, and our depot repair program was pathetically slow. We had quite the backlog of units waiting on parts.

If they can get an airframe like the F-35 to fill multiple roles, they can have more flying with a more robust supply chain in place. If we’re talking about busting down the A-10s to the minimum needed the supply chain will likely suffer (if it isn’t already). So while it’d be great to have the ideal aircraft in the role, that aircrafts is going to be useless without parts. I love watching the A-10s flying around Whiteman, they’re a cool aircraft, but I’m not sure how much longer they should stick around. I’m curious to see how this plays out.
 
Not only with price, but parts availability is a large issue (which feeds cost of operation). When I worked avionics on the B-2 we had a hell of a time getting parts. I’ve not worked the A-10, but as it gets up in age not only do the airframes fatigue but the supply chain starts to struggle. It’s not as simple as “we’re short on FCCs, so let’s order some more”, sadly. Repair contracts are normally asinine, and our depot repair program was pathetically slow. We had quite the backlog of units waiting on parts.
On B-2 parts, I can imagine how they can be scarce considering the extremely low production figures! Don't even get me started on spare parts procurement and stocking idiocy, "cost cutting" "great ideas" which provide OPR bullets and promotions with the end results being experienced long after the perps have been promoted and PCSed. "Hey, I know, this new system is coming on line on [incredibly overly optimistic date not taking into account the history of delays of anything military], so lets stop making LRU X." Later, after the manufacturer has closed down production, from the poor guy stuck with the problem caused by the promoted and PCSed idiot, "Hey, we need LRU X." Manufacturer, "Sure, we need to set up the line again... so that'll be a bazillion dollars per unit... sometime next year."

HOWEVER, with the A-10's huge production numbers, things COULD be different... UNLESS, of course, the owning service branch has been trying to get rid of the plane almost from day one when they demanded the plane be produced when it looked like the Army was muscling into the close air support role... "which we don't really want [unsaid]... but we don't really want that Army crap either."

On the idea of scavenging A-10's with beyond service life wing spars for parts: 716 A-10s were built. 280 are still in service. 716 - 280 = 436. A relative handful have been downed in combat judging by the Desert Storm figures I've seen. Let's say 36 were lost or damaged beyond repair in combat and in training missions just to make the math easy. That leaves 400. Where are they?

They sure aren't in the Davis-Monthan AFB boneyard. I just looked:

43455659511_7ff28653c4_o.jpg


EDIT: found a few more...

28569667867_d8c24532ab_o.jpg


28569667937_8091b781aa_o.jpg
 
Last edited:
On B-2 parts, I can imagine how they can be scarce considering the extremely low production figures! Don't even get me started on spare parts procurement and stocking idiocy, "cost cutting" "great ideas" which provide OPR bullets and promotions with the end results being experience long after the perps have been promoted and PCSed. "Hey, I know, this new system is coming on line on [incredibly overly optimistic date not taking into account the history of delays of anything military], so lets stop making LRU X." Later, after the manufacturer has closed down production, from the poor guy stuck with the problem caused by the promoted and PCSed idiot, "Hey, we need LRU X." Manufacturer, "Sure, we need to set up the line again... so that'll be a bazillion dollars per unit... sometime next year."

HOWEVER, with the A-10's huge production numbers, things COULD be different... UNLESS, of course, the owning service branch has been trying to get rid of the plane almost from day one when they demanded the plane when it looked like the Army was muscling into the close air support role... "which we don't really want [unsaid]... but we don't really want that Army crap either."

On the idea of scavenging A-10's with beyond service life wing spars for parts: 716 A-10s were built. 280 are still in service. 716 - 280 = 436. A relative handful have been downed in combat judging by the Desert Storm figures I've seen. Let's say 36 were lost or damaged beyond repair in combat and in training missions just to make the math easy. That leaves 400. Where are they?

They sure aren't in the Davis-Monthan AFB boneyard. I just looked:

43455659511_7ff28653c4_o.jpg
Yeah, this whole idea of PCSing people every year or two to curb complacency just ends up with a bunch of people half-butting things and not really becoming competent on an airframe. I was only in for four years, and at Whiteman that whole time, but as you mentioned this bullet driven leadership doesn’t really account for anything past when those who implement it head out somewhere else. No one seemed to care much as they were heading out soon, too. It made the day-to-day incredibly frustrating.

I’m not sure how the A-10 will fare parts wise as the years go on. I just have an inkling they’ll end up in a crap position as that seems to be the norm, unless we’re talking F-16s. There’s more parts for those damn things than anything else. Which is why the idea of the F-35 serving multiple roles makes me optimistic, support may be better. Hopefully if they keep the A-10s flying they use some common sense, and as you’ve said there’s been quite a few of them made so parts are out there. Though, from what I’ve heard the B-2 chain started out incredibly robust and there are a ton of units sitting waiting on repair with no one to fix them as contracts are up and our implementation of three level maintenance is a joke. The issue isn’t necessarily a shortage of parts, but a shortage of good parts. We had more than enough units sitting on the shelf to fix any deficiencies, but those all had multiple empty slots. Instead of getting new/repaired CCAs in, we just continue to steal the bits we need from the AWP units or just pull units off jets not scheduled for sorties. Just enough to limp across the line until the current leadership leaves, it seems...

I’m not sure if they’re scraping them. I haven’t followed it too closely besides coming across a few articles, but I can’t imagine 400 being junk. It’d sure be nice to have all those around to cannabalize parts from... maybe that’s what they’ve been doing? Who knows? Hopefully whatever direction they go it pans out.
 
"Hey, I know, this new system is coming on line on [incredibly overly optimistic date not taking into account the history of delays of anything military], so lets stop making LRU X." Later, after the manufacturer has closed down production, from the poor guy stuck with the problem caused by the promoted and PCSed idiot, "Hey, we need LRU X." Manufacturer, "Sure, we need to set up the line again... so that'll be a bazillion dollars per unit... sometime next year."

Working for a company that builds aircraft computers, it is not just starting the line that takes time and money. We also have issues building old configurations as the parts for the equipment become obsolete. That may force us to update the design to remove the obsolete part and then we need to re-qualify the box design, adding more cost and delays
 
Not only with price, but parts availability is a large issue (which feeds cost of operation). When I worked avionics on the B-2 we had a hell of a time getting parts. I’ve not worked the A-10, but as it gets up in age not only do the airframes fatigue but the supply chain starts to struggle. It’s not as simple as “we’re short on FCCs, so let’s order some more”, sadly. Repair contracts are normally asinine, and our depot repair program was pathetically slow. We had quite the backlog of units waiting on parts.

If they can get an airframe like the F-35 to fill multiple roles, they can have more flying with a more robust supply chain in place. If we’re talking about busting down the A-10s to the minimum needed the supply chain will likely suffer (if it isn’t already). So while it’d be great to have the ideal aircraft in the role, that aircrafts is going to be useless without parts. I love watching the A-10s flying around Whiteman, they’re a cool aircraft, but I’m not sure how much longer they should stick around. I’m curious to see how this plays out.

I just saw a story on this today where the replacement toilet lid on the C-5 cost something like $10K because it was a matter of getting a new mold made up so they could make new parts. I think the story said that the C-5 toilet seat (not lid) was the original "Pentagon $XXX toilet seat" story from the Reagan era, again due to closed down production lines. The story did say that the next few they need will be in the $300 range since they will be 3-D printed. Why they can't insist that the toilet seat have comm spec hinges in the first place, I don't know. Probably because it wasn't in the USAF spec and [insert military-industrial complex contractor here] saw a way to make a lot of money down the road by having a unique part.

Working for a company that builds aircraft computers, it is not just starting the line that takes time and money. We also have issues building old configurations as the parts for the equipment become obsolete. That may force us to update the design to remove the obsolete part and then we need to re-qualify the box design, adding more cost and delays

I remember seeing something here where an altimeter manufacturer (Raven, I think) had to re-jigger their design because they couldn't get the same baro sensor anymore.
 
Working for a company that builds aircraft computers, it is not just starting the line that takes time and money. We also have issues building old configurations as the parts for the equipment become obsolete. That may force us to update the design to remove the obsolete part and then we need to re-qualify the box design, adding more cost and delays
Yeah, I was just relating from personal experiences where that wasn't the case. I can imagine what a pain it would be to keep the electronics units used in long-operational-life military systems in production since the technology changes so rapidly.
 
I just saw a story on this today where the replacement toilet lid on the C-5 cost something like $10K because it was a matter of getting a new mold made up so they could make new parts. I think the story said that the C-5 toilet seat (not lid) was the original "Pentagon $XXX toilet seat" story from the Reagan era, again due to closed down production lines. The story did say that the next few they need will be in the $300 range since they will be 3-D printed. Why they can't insist that the toilet seat have comm spec hinges in the first place, I don't know. Probably because it wasn't in the USAF spec and [insert military-industrial complex contractor here] saw a way to make a lot of money down the road by having a unique part.
In that vein, maybe we could afford both the A-10 and the F-35 if this kind of crap didn't go on. From personal experience, I once submitted a price challenge when the supply system showed that the integrated circuit I was ordering cost $109. Thing was, via a commercial source, the milspec version of that common chip cost... wait for it... $1.09. Misplaced decimal point?:

Air Force’s $1,200 Coffee Cups Could Last Longer Thanks to 3D Printing
5 Jul 2018

https://www.military.com/defensetec...ups-could-last-longer-thanks-3d-printing.html

The U.S. Air Force has spent thousands of dollars -- $56,000 over the last three years, to be exact -- on cups that can reheat coffee and tea on air refueling tankers.

No, not a fancy "Game of Thrones"-like chalice adorned with jewels. Just a regular, old-fashioned metal cup.
But the pricey cups are fragile and often break when dropped. Airmen at Travis Air Force Base, California, are working on the problem, according to a service release.

Travis' Phoenix Spark program is a rapid innovation office using artificial intelligence and rapid prototyping to bridge gaps that currently exist across the force.

"The handle currently on the hot cup has a square bottom, which creates a weak point on the handle so any time it is dropped, the handle splits shortly after impact," said Nicholas Wright, a volunteer 3D designer and printer with the Phoenix Spark office.
"Our new rounded handle reduces that weak point. The handle we designed is stronger and capable of being printed at most Air Force bases," he said in the release.

According to Air Mobility Command officials, the 60th Aerial Port Squadron purchased 10 hot cups for $9,630 in 2016. The price for each cup surged from $693 to $1,220 in 2018, resulting in a cost of $32,000 for 25 cups -- a price jump of $527 per cup, the release said.

Part of the issue, officials said, is that replacement parts for the cup handle are no longer available. Each time a handle breaks, the Air Force must order a new cup.

"Unfortunately, we can't order replacement parts when the handle breaks, which requires us to purchase a whole new hot cup every time one breaks," said 1st Lt. Dennis Abramov, 60th APS passenger operations flight commander.

"The hot cup problem was shared with us because the price keeps increasing," added Capt. Ryan McGuire, 60th Air Mobility Wing Phoenix Spark chief and a KC-10 Extender pilot with the 9th Air Refueling Squadron. "Our office was asked to see if we could produce a 3D-designed handle that is stronger than the current one."

McGuire compared the 3D-printed handle to a tree, layered through many rings to give it strength. "The new handle has stacked layers with a solid piece around it so it's similar to the layers of a tree," he said.

Each 3D-printed handle will cost roughly 50 cents.

"It's much cheaper for us to replace the handle on 40 cups at about 50 cents per handle rather than purchasing 40 cups for more than $1,200 per cup," he said.

Wright said it took about a week to develop a solution for the hot cup handle "from learning the software to figuring how to physically print it."

"We talked to air crew members about how they'd like it designed. They recommended a more ergonomic design. The reason for this is because the original handle is placed upside down, so aircrews wanted a mix between comfort and strength. We achieved that in about seven days," he said.

The Air Force is awaiting approval from the Air Force Life Cycle Management Center at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, Ohio, to start printing and fielding cup handle parts.

"They are working through all the processes, quality standards and materials to try and put out a playbook on how we can 3D print the handle so it's approved to be on an Air Force aircraft," McGuire said. "Once we get that guidance, we can print the handles at Travis."

While the Air Force has tried to do more with 3D printing experimentation, it often runs into obstacles.

Assistant Secretary of the Air Force for Acquisition, Technology and Logistics Will Roper recently told DefenseOne the service could do more with 3D-printed parts.

But it doesn't inherently own the rights to manufacture specific components, he said. Nor does it have a surefire way of dealing with that kind of intellectual property.

Taxpayers are paying a high price as a result, he said.

For example, Roper said he could 3D print new toilet seat covers for C-17 Globemaster IIIs at a cost of roughly $300 per seat. But because the manufacturer owns the rights, the service must rely on industry to produce the item at a whopping $10,000 per seat.

"You'll think, 'There's no way it costs that,' " Roper told DefenseOne last month. "No, it doesn't, but you're asking a company to produce it and they're [busy] producing something else."


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I love watching the A-10s flying around Whiteman, they’re a cool aircraft,
Have through the years seen several cruising below treetop height along the Missouri River near the Katy Bridge, and some above tree height. They were there and gone before my digital camera could boot. Will bet they were practicing on the Katy Bridge and 40 Hwy bridge.
Now, if I could just get a picture which had all at the same time them, a train on the riverbank track, and the dredge and towboat from Capital Sand doing their thing, I'd be a very happy camper.
One time had a B-2 come up the river so low you could pretty much count the gravel dings around the wheel wells, if there had been any, jets and loose gravel on runways don't mix well. At least not for long.
Way back in 1990s one evening at a now gone auto auction I worked at in Lee's Summit a pair of A-10 pretty much made a "strafing run" on me working at the marshalling yard where autos were one time delivered by rail. I'm very, very, very, glad we were on the same side.
I want to remember there were 3 in the group, but that doesn't sound right compared to the "wingman" stereotype of fighter ops.
But yeah, I'm pretty sure there were 3. And the one which made the run on me looked close enough to count the pilot's eyelashes.
Between agendas, money, sentiment, and egos, I have zero expectation of any purely rational resolution to the A-10 versus (any other aviation creation of mankind) situation.
 
Working for a company that builds aircraft computers, it is not just starting the line that takes time and money. We also have issues building old configurations as the parts for the equipment become obsolete. That may force us to update the design to remove the obsolete part and then we need to re-qualify the box design, adding more cost and delays
I totally understand that, I don’t think the blame lies on the companies contacted to build the units, but the management of those contracts on the military’s end.
Have through the years seen several cruising below treetop height along the Missouri River near the Katy Bridge, and some above tree height. They were there and gone before my digital camera could boot. Will bet they were practicing on the Katy Bridge and 40 Hwy bridge.
Now, if I could just get a picture which had all at the same time them, a train on the riverbank track, and the dredge and towboat from Capital Sand doing their thing, I'd be a very happy camper.
One time had a B-2 come up the river so low you could pretty much count the gravel dings around the wheel wells, if there had been any, jets and loose gravel on runways don't mix well. At least not for long.
Way back in 1990s one evening at a now gone auto auction I worked at in Lee's Summit a pair of A-10 pretty much made a "strafing run" on me working at the marshalling yard where autos were one time delivered by rail. I'm very, very, very, glad we were on the same side.
I want to remember there were 3 in the group, but that doesn't sound right compared to the "wingman" stereotype of fighter ops.
But yeah, I'm pretty sure there were 3. And the one which made the run on me looked close enough to count the pilot's eyelashes.
Between agendas, money, sentiment, and egos, I have zero expectation of any purely rational resolution to the A-10 versus (any other aviation creation of mankind) situation.
Yeah, it's wild how low they fly around there. Don't worry about the debris on the runway, we did plenty of FOD walks. :confused:
 
Way back in 1990s one evening at a now gone auto auction I worked at in Lee's Summit a pair of A-10 pretty much made a "strafing run" on me working at the marshalling yard where autos were one time delivered by rail. I'm very, very, very, glad we were on the same side.
I recall an incident I'd heard about which I believe happened on the Gila Bend range in AZ. I believe it was a BLM truck that had strayed into a very bad place to be on the range. Fortunately, the occupant(s) were not in the truck and apparently well away from the truck at the time or the A7 pilot would have seen them and not fired his 20 mm Vulcan gatling gun. The truck was totalled, of course.

That range:

 
Yeah, it's wild how low they fly around there. Don't worry about the debris on the runway, we did plenty of FOD walks. :confused:
If my overall health had supported going in to the military I would have loved to do the A-10's kind of flying, tree-hopping at 300 knots sounds like a hoot. Grandad W was a civil pilot for a long time; and, Dad started his USN career in flight training but one of those fabled eyesight things soon knocked him out of military flying and he went on the path of what was eventually called Surface Warfare. He did continue civil lessons for a few years.
I haven't been able to determine whether A-10 looks so intimidating because the A-10 looks so intimidating; or, if the A-10 looks so intimidating because of knowledge of what it can do. A scene I would love to have on camera was when I was at red light in our little downtown next to MO River, was heading to cross river, and there was a quick sight of A-10 passing left to right, between the buildings on opposite sides of street just before bridge over river.
 
If the aesthetic philosophy were mine to enforce, I'd say that pretty airplanes just don't cut it in that job and close support aircraft which do the in-your-face style of close support should be brutal, inelegant beasts, reeking of "I was born with a bad attitude; and I don't like you."
 
We (Canada) are on the joint development program for this aircraft. While it hasn't been in the news recently, it was a few years ago due to spiraling costs and an ever delayed timeframe. There was also calls as to whether this was really the plane we need. We have since bought some 2nd hand Super hornets to complement our aging F/A-18 fleet.. of course, this was a politically driven as it was an election year.
 
If the aesthetic philosophy were mine to enforce, I'd say that pretty airplanes just don't cut it in that job and close support aircraft which do the in-your-face style of close support should be brutal, inelegant beasts, reeking of "I was born with a bad attitude; and I don't like you."
Agree. I LOVE the look of the "ugly "A-10." Why? Because design for FUNCTION can be beautiful.
 
If the aesthetic philosophy were mine to enforce, I'd say that pretty airplanes just don't cut it in that job and close support aircraft which do the in-your-face style of close support should be brutal, inelegant beasts, reeking of "I was born with a bad attitude; and I don't like you."

Douglas Adams said it best, I think: "Make it totally clear that this gun has a right end and a wrong end. Make it totally clear to anyone standing at the wrong end that things are going badly for them. If that means sticking all sort of spikes and prongs and blackened bits all over it then so be it. This is not a gun for hanging over the fireplace or sticking in the umbrella stand, it is a gun for going out and making people miserable with."
 
Apparently certain naval vessels, when designed, are run by psychologists to ensure they have a menacing presence.. And likewise, cruise ships invoke a warm & fluffy feeling.. And as well with car designs, to cater to certain persona types & attitudes & styles..
 
Winston, none of the A-10s in the Aerospace Maintenance and Regeneration Center (aka boneyard) are C model aircraft. Those old A models are not very useful shells that have been raided over and over for decades. I helped put 300+ there at my first assignment from 1991 to 1995. We started pulling parts from those jets immediately, like 27 years ago. Decades later, almost none of those jets could ever be brought back to flyable status, and even if you did they'd be semi-useless A models unable to be useful.

The C model avionics are much closer to that of a later F-16 and honestly break more often. Why upgrade? The A model was losing relevancy and the mostly analog electronics were antiquated, getting too expensive, lacked capability and unsupportable. The C model brings all kinds of improvements and gave the jet new life--Google it. And, the gun is a 30mm, not a "20mm Vulcan" as stated above. I had 5 years working A model Hogs and 5.5 working the C model, and they are very different animals. C models have cool things like datalinks, can shoot/drop newer weapons, do so very accurately with modern things like GPS and enable the jet to 'play' in the larger battlespace with more situational awareness.

I was responsible for the A-10s at Nellis AFB when I was there for 5.5 years, all told--not just kinda familiar with them. A Hog rolling into periodic maintenance called a Phase Inspection was usually a bit of a horror show. Cracked gun mounts, structural defects, fuel system issues/FOD, engine troubles, and so much more. We could "phase" and F-16 in half the time. That's why the Cost Per Flying Hour on the Hog is climbing. It's not a B-52 and will never be kept flying forever more. This heavy G pulling, bomb hauling and 30mm gun shooting airplane that's been flown the snot out of it in constant conflicts over the last 27+ years is running out of life. At a certain point very near to now, a newer A-10 makes a lot more sense. At Nellis I was not just responsible for the Hogs, but also every fighter aircraft there (F-15C/D/E, F-16s, F-22, F-35, A-10C)--and the Hogs were maybe second toughest to sustain from a field maintainer perspective. Back in 1991, they were a dream...but they were also relatively new aircraft with not very many flying hours on them.

Who here drives a K car anymore? That's when the Hogs were built!

I've seen the Hog in combat, and she's a fearsome beast that you do NOT want to be on the wrong side of. Love the jet and what it can do for the close air support mission. Irreplaceable in many respects. It is still old as tactical aircraft go and getting too expensive as it ages out of affordable sustainability (look up the wing replacement deal). As a 27 year USAF Fighter Aircraft Maintainer, I repeat: we need a new attack platform done new with the same A-10 design philosophy criteria. We don't fly P-51Ds or F-4s anymore for a good reason.
 
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