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Aerotech just posted this on FB:

[YOUTUBE]yhheMOxiLCY[/YOUTUBE]

I know you're still stuck in Reno, but when you get the home and can look at the data I'd really be interested in the what the terminal velocity was right before the main deployed. :y:
 
Very interesting. It's neat how way up there, there is no wind sound. As it gets into the denser air the wind sound returns. I've never appreciated that before with other flights because of the apogee deployments results in loud harness noises.
With the unplanned (and unfortunate) failure of the apogee charges the demarcation between the dead quiet of the rarefied upper level is contrasted with the resurgence of rushing air sound during the rapid descent into the lower altitude.

Did the main chute shred? The rocket seemed to hit hard but yet not "too" hard. Very unique flight here. Thanks for the link Chris. Kurt
 
Very interesting. It's neat how way up there, there is no wind sound. As it gets into the denser air the wind sound returns. I've never appreciated that before with other flights because of the apogee deployments results in loud harness noises.
With the unplanned (and unfortunate) failure of the apogee charges the demarcation between the dead quiet of the rarefied upper level is contrasted with the resurgence of rushing air sound during the rapid descent into the lower altitude.

Did the main chute shred? The rocket seemed to hit hard but yet not "too" hard. Very unique flight here. Thanks for the link Chris. Kurt

Yes the chutes got destroyed.

I found out why the apogee charges never fired. I selected after motor number 1 for Pyro Channel B (backup apogee) and C (nominal flight apogee). After motor number 1 should mean the following: "after motor number 1 but before motor number 2". I would suggest only using the after motor setting for staging on a 3-stager. Anyways that small mistake cost me the sustainer on what otherwise would've been a perfect flight. Heh.

Easy_2022_setup.png
 
I know you're still stuck in Reno, but when you get the home and can look at the data I'd really be interested in the what the terminal velocity was right before the main deployed. :y:

Right before main deployment the Easy showed 350m/s or 780mph.
 
I'm using the same material on my Punisher 4, but it weighs ~14lbs emtpy. I'm sure your sustainer is much lighter.
 
After motor number 1 should mean the following: "after motor number 1 but before motor number 2".
I'm not following -- do you mean it actually does mean that? I thought it meant "any time after motor 1 burnout" and I had an exchange with Keith before BALLS last year where I thought he confirmed that.
 
I'm not following -- do you mean it actually does mean that? I thought it meant "any time after motor 1 burnout" and I had an exchange with Keith before BALLS last year where I thought he confirmed that.

You, me, Jarvis and everyone else I talked to thought it meant anytime after motor 1. But that is not the case, spread the word!
 
Yes the chutes got destroyed.

I found out why the apogee charges never fired. I selected after motor number 1 for Pyro Channel B (backup apogee) and C (nominal flight apogee). After motor number 1 should mean the following: "after motor number 1 but before motor number 2". I would suggest only using the after motor setting for staging on a 3-stager. Anyways that small mistake cost me the sustainer on what otherwise would've been a perfect flight. Heh.

Double shoot. Well good news is as long as the Easy Mega survived the hit, the channels are probably fine and can live again for the next flight.

Can't one just set it up to blow at apogee without having to count motor firings? I mean if the sustainer won't light after 1st stage burnout, one would want the apogee to blow.
I mean, be able to set it simply to blow once it has gone as high as it's going to go, period.

Kurt
 
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Can't one just set it up to blow at apogee without having to count motor firings?
Sure, but the barometric sensor is reading zero above 100K feet or so, so you'd be relying on the Kalman filter to handle that and the accelerometer to properly integrate apogee. That's supposed to work, it's how we set ours at BALLS 2015 (which had a booster CATO and never got that far). It looks like Kip made the decision to use a pure timer for his apogee deploy, time from booster motor burnout, and was bit by odd and poorly documented Altus Metrum behavior.
 
Keith told me they are working on a way to simulate a flight while the computer is on the bench. So we'll see. I offered to help him sort out the documentation too.

Tbh I should have done some test flights with my setups but between actually building the rocket and then the launch pad this summer I haven't had any extra free time. By taking a little more time I probably would've caught these issues. I'm learning...
 
You, me, Jarvis and everyone else I talked to thought it meant anytime after motor 1. But that is not the case, spread the word!

Is this from the Altus Metrum folks themselves or based off your experience?
 
This is based off of talking to folks. Altus Metrum told me otherwise.

Fun times.

Someone found my TeleMega (TeleMaybe) from Balls last year, unfortunately. I've found them too buggy to trust to do anything at this point. I forget how long my list of issues is, but it's long enough that I'm going to be selling my unit once I pull the data from 2015.

Also, nice flight btw. I think I saw you guys pull out Sunday ( I was hanging out with the AMW crew). Shame the recovery and trip didn't go so well.
 
Fun times.

Someone found my TeleMega (TeleMaybe) from Balls last year, unfortunately. I've found them too buggy to trust to do anything at this point. I forget how long my list of issues is, but it's long enough that I'm going to be selling my unit once I pull the data from 2015.

Also, nice flight btw. I think I saw you guys pull out Sunday ( I was hanging out with the AMW crew). Shame the recovery and trip didn't go so well.

Ya I heard Telemegas have trouble with lock after liftoff. I think their Easy Megas are good, I just haven't had a lot of luck with configuring them. But I got them figured out now - finally!

It was an awesome trip despite the bumps in the road. No big deal! When I saw you guys chilling I wanted to stay!

I could have sworn there was an altitude over time plot here, did that disappear?

There was I removed it for certain reasons. If you want it, I can email it but don't distribute.
 
Sure, but the barometric sensor is reading zero above 100K feet or so, so you'd be relying on the Kalman filter to handle that and the accelerometer to properly integrate apogee. That's supposed to work, it's how we set ours at BALLS 2015 (which had a booster CATO and never got that far). It looks like Kip made the decision to use a pure timer for his apogee deploy, time from booster motor burnout, and was bit by odd and poorly documented Altus Metrum behavior.

Oh yeah, Thanks for pointing that out to me Mike. I've read where folks have long discussions about triggering the apogee with these extreme flights and what a challenge it is to pull off correctly. I've seen a few mention it would be nice to
be able to get a GPS device to trigger at apogee but the highest I ever saw quoted for a commercial unit that was usable with high altitude ballooning was around the altitude that Kip achieved. Even then it would be dicey. One would have to hope that
the velocity was slow enough for the GPS to start responding, get the fix and then command a charge deployment. Kurt
 
Ya I heard Telemegas have trouble with lock after liftoff. I think their Easy Megas are good, I just haven't had a lot of luck with configuring them. But I got them figured out now - finally!

Ummmm, Any GPS chipset is going to have a problem with a "lock" after liftoff. 1,200 mph and 60,000 feet is supposed to be the limit. If a "balloon" is flying along at slow speed, there are chipsets that continue to function
above 60k. The speed limit is set in stone but the altitude may not be with some GPS units. Some lockout above 60k even if going slow, depends of the makers interpretation. The Ublox chipsets I believe function above 60k if
the velocity is below the limit.

Now a rocket flight has another problem. Doppler effect. Yes Doppler effect. You may notice that most all the commercial GPS units have a "4 G" limit on them. Doesn't mean they can't stand more than 4 G's it means the electronics can't get a fix under high acceleration due to the frequency shift of the GPS signals. Their ability to reacquire the lock might be dependent on how well their electronics are designed once they are in a steady state and below the limits mentioned above.

You may have noticed with Kips video the rocket was spinning around its long axis at various times. That means the flat GPS receive antenna on the TeleMega is constantly moving and the GPS electronics have to try to keep lock from a constantly shifting position. Perhaps using a GPS receiver that has a circularly polarized receiving antenna might help in that regard. I don't know.

As his rocket was coming over the top, one can hear some beeping from some device so I thought that was an indication that an apogee deployment command was being given and somehow the command was not activated. Also a short time later a second set of beeps were heard that suggested to me that was a backup charge indication but again the command wasn't carried out. Seems frustrating to me that if those were "valid" deployment commands, the video well documents that they occurred at a reasonable time during the flight based on the perceived position of the lens of the camera. It's a shame the charges didn't blow due to some sort of inhibit mode.

Folks should realize that the best that can be hoped for with GPS tracking is the finding and recovery of the rocket period. We cannot expect launch to recovery recording of every position. That just isn't going to happen.
One stands a better chance that there will be more positions recorded with an onboard memory record than to depend on the vagaries of radio reception. One is going to miss positions on the ground no matter what. The best that
can be hoped for is the descent stabilizes enough for valid Rf positions get sent, enough are received and helps one find their rocket. More positions will be downloadable as long as the conditions are met for receiving the
GPS signals.

I hope it works better for you next time Kip. Kurt
 
I just wanted to say congrats, Kip. Great flight. One hell of an accomplishment, even with the issues. I believe in NASA terms, that would be a successful, but sub-optimal recovery.
 
Ummmm, Any GPS chipset is going to have a problem with a "lock" after liftoff. 1,200 mph and 60,000 feet is supposed to be the limit. If a "balloon" is flying along at slow speed, there are chipsets that continue to function
above 60k. The speed limit is set in stone but the altitude may not be with some GPS units. Some lockout above 60k even if going slow, depends of the makers interpretation. The Ublox chipsets I believe function above 60k if
the velocity is below the limit.

Now a rocket flight has another problem. Doppler effect. Yes Doppler effect. You may notice that most all the commercial GPS units have a "4 G" limit on them. Doesn't mean they can't stand more than 4 G's it means the electronics can't get a fix under high acceleration due to the frequency shift of the GPS signals. Their ability to reacquire the lock might be dependent on how well their electronics are designed once they are in a steady state and below the limits mentioned above.

You may have noticed with Kips video the rocket was spinning around its long axis at various times. That means the flat GPS receive antenna on the TeleMega is constantly moving and the GPS electronics have to try to keep lock from a constantly shifting position. Perhaps using a GPS receiver that has a circularly polarized receiving antenna might help in that regard. I don't know.

As his rocket was coming over the top, one can hear some beeping from some device so I thought that was an indication that an apogee deployment command was being given and somehow the command was not activated. Also a short time later a second set of beeps were heard that suggested to me that was a backup charge indication but again the command wasn't carried out. Seems frustrating to me that if those were "valid" deployment commands, the video well documents that they occurred at a reasonable time during the flight based on the perceived position of the lens of the camera. It's a shame the charges didn't blow due to some sort of inhibit mode.

Folks should realize that the best that can be hoped for with GPS tracking is the finding and recovery of the rocket period. We cannot expect launch to recovery recording of every position. That just isn't going to happen.
One stands a better chance that there will be more positions recorded with an onboard memory record than to depend on the vagaries of radio reception. One is going to miss positions on the ground no matter what. The best that
can be hoped for is the descent stabilizes enough for valid Rf positions get sent, enough are received and helps one find their rocket. More positions will be downloadable as long as the conditions are met for receiving the
GPS signals.

I hope it works better for you next time Kip. Kurt

Kurt, what about the not off the shelf GPS? The unlocked ones that do not have the same limitations. Huge amount of paperwork/red tape and cost, but that might actually do the trick. Not sure just how difficult to get though, and at what cost.

It appear to be though that the current, hobby available systems are not really up to a flight like Kip's or others.
 
My Beeline did a great job it just stopped logging positions when my speed exceeded 500m/s (both on the way up and on the way down). The important thing was that it could regain lock quickly and maintain it when conditions allowed. Others were not so lucky which could mean couple things - the units inherently don't work well and/or improper mounting/locating of the unit in the rocket (interference, antenna location, etc).

I didn't have any special equipment, just a Kenwood D7A-g with an aftermarket whip antenna from Amazon. The beeline had its standard wire antenna.
 
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Kurt, what about the not off the shelf GPS? The unlocked ones that do not have the same limitations. Huge amount of paperwork/red tape and cost, but that might actually do the trick. Not sure just how difficult to get though, and at what cost.

It appear to be though that the current, hobby available systems are not really up to a flight like Kip's or others.

Righto on that Mark. I'd ask the people at Up Aerospace and see what the red tape and hoops are to get access to hardware like that. Sounds like $$$$$. Kurt
 
My Beeline did a great job it just stopped logging positions when my speed exceeded 500m/s (both on the way up and on the way down). The important thing was that it could regain lock quickly and maintain it when conditions allowed. Others were not so lucky which could mean couple things - the units inherently don't work well and/or improper mounting/locating of the unit in the rocket (interference, antenna location, etc).

I didn't have any special equipment, just a Kenwood D7A-g with an aftermarket whip antenna from Amazon. The beeline had its standard wire antenna.

Ummmmm, Did you do an adequate range test before flying? Reason I ask is I have two old D7A(g)'s and the oscillators on both of them have gone out of specification. The APRS receive range I have on 70cm is a couple of blocks. I had purchased a D72A when it was available and was going to use the D7's for backup. I hadn't used them in a long time and did a ground test and then connected them up to a frequency counter when the range test didn't go so well. The TNC's have a tendency to
die out on them too. Kenwood just came out with a high falut'in D-74 which is overkill for tracking. Nice thing though is the cost of a D72A has gone down. You could save up and get one for next time or at least see if you can borrow one from another flier. You need a rock steady reliable ground receive station to track your projects of this caliber. I have had nothing but perfect service with my D72. In fact two of us show up with them and he watches
distance and direction on a map and I can have mine set to monitor the GPS altitude for direct rate of descent.

I got a couple of these antennas: https://www.linxtechnologies.com/resources/data-guides/ant-433-cw-qw.pdf One tunes to the center frequency 433Mhz and you'd get the most of your signal out.

I will relate on a modest note I did a ground test with an 900Mhz NMEA tracker (EggFinder) mounted in a nosecone with the whole assembly on a tabletop chimney of a single story house. I still was receiving a strong signal from 1/4 mile with a lot
of obstructions and called it a good test. Flew it to a measly 3200' and I "underdosed" the motor ejection charge. I won't go into that except an electronic ematch/canister test was successful so I used less powder .9gm as opposed to the 1.3gm in the
motor reload. The motor ejection charge blew but failed to break the shearpins this time. Rocket went in ballistic. It was entirely sight unseen except when it was 40 feet up, I heard a beep on my receiver and got a datapoint/icon on my live map that
was north of the launchpad.

I have two possibilities and one might apply to your situation. The black profusion nosecone attenuated the signal. Maybe that's the case but I believe I had a decent ground test.

The other is that the GPS, in my case a Sirf IV chipset doesn't do well in a high dynamic state. It did get "one" maybe two packets out before it hit. That's how I was able to dig the rocket out, replace the nosecone (I broke it digging it out of the clay).
Just took that one or two packets and I walked to the point on the map. Next flight with a thin-walled red nosecone that is translucent enough to see the GPS tracker led's flashing through had a derned forward closure failure with the rocket
getting about 3-400 feet up. Two flame jets, one at the bottom, one out the side is not a good sign. Rocket flopped around and again, I received positions on the pad, 20 or 30 feet up and then when the rocket was flopping around for several seconds,
nothing. The charge blew (successfully I might add), the Jolly Logic Chute Release released the chute but the rocket wasn't high enough for it to inflate. No problem, soft farm ground saved the day though I thought the rocket was trashed and was going to gut it for the retainer and save the nosecone. It's a glass rocket and after I looked at the kevlar cord with a bore scope I saw it was intact as the flame burned out the other side. I had a shockcord protector and made a sleeve of boric acid/borate soaked cardboard that I put over the shockcord protector. Saved the kevlar really well. Just slid and epoxied a glass coupler down the tube to cover the hole and by golly it will fly again.

What this suggests to me is if the rocket goes ballistic or unstable, a GPS tracker might not work optimally. At what point of the descent did you start to receive positions again on descent Kip? Kurt
 
I dunno the D7A is fine, hasn't died on me or had any issues. I'm not a radio guy. For what I use it for, basically a 15 minute flight once a year, I'm not willing to invest more. Next year I'll have someone doing backup tracking.
I got tracking back at 26k on the way down. Last packet was at 7k because of terrain. Then I was driving to the rocket and about 4 miles out got another packet.

I must have a good D7A
 
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