Lpr Rockets that stand the test of time

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Cody Webster

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I have been lurking around the forum gathering info for sometime, I enjoy building rockets and spend a lot of time and attention on my models. I would like to hear your tips and advice on how to increase the durablitiy of our prized rockets. Not too worried about winning a competition or set an altitude record. Been wondering about aftermarket airframes, ca gluing body tubes, kevlar cord, baffles, paper reinforcements on fins, and any tips you may have to make rockets that last!
 
Flying is hard on any rocket. It is going to break but repairing it is fun too. More than bulletproofing in the building process is using good flying techniques. The only way to make a rocket last is to fly it well every time. That is really hard to do. A light, stock built rocket flown well will last forever if you repair and maintain it. You must never do anything even slightly stupid with it. Avoid any inclement weather, any trees, any hard landing surface, use only sensible motors, careful prep and always have the perfect sized recovery system in place. Never launch at night or with tall grass around, never close to any roof. A well built, good old school Alpha is the best model, simple paper tube and balsa, never use a C motor. Keep it simple and it will last forever, you may have to replace the shock cord, hundreds of flights. If that gets too boring then more risk will equate to more damage and loss.

All kinds of info on building techniques here on the forum. Try them out and choose the mix you like. Every rocket is different so what works on one will not necessarily work on another. Before I launch any rocket I visualize it as a burning heap of goo and if I can not live with that visualization I will not push the button.
 
I have a few LOC kits that have over 50 flights on them with minimal cosmetic damage. The LOC Aura with a small chute and E and low F motors is quite robust.

Oops saw this was in the Low Power thread. :) For C powered rockets many of those Ready to Fly rockets with the plastic fin cans are highly robust. You just won't get many over the 600 foot mark.
 
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I have been lurking around the forum gathering info for sometime, I enjoy building rockets and spend a lot of time and attention on my models. I would like to hear your tips and advice on how to increase the durablitiy of our prized rockets. Not too worried about winning a competition or set an altitude record. Been wondering about aftermarket airframes, ca gluing body tubes, kevlar cord, baffles, paper reinforcements on fins, and any tips you may have to make rockets that last!

I don't use BT-20 or BT-50 tubes. The tube walls are thin and prone to buckling,
usually right above the fins at the top of the engine mount.
Where I can I use ST-7 tubes (thicker walled) or heavy walled BT-50s.
You can get both at Balsa Machining Service.

You can replace soft balsa with a harder grade or use basswood.
Plastic nose cones won't nick like balsa.
The old standby of using a LONG shock cord can cut back on snap back damage.
Seal all exposed surfaces.
Keep your fingers clean, especially when making card stock shrouds.
Coat baffle plates (the sides facing down towards the engine mount) with glue.
Models get the most damage on a hard landing or driving to and from the launch site.
A better built model will always last longer. Take an extra five minutes on each step of construction.

Stop by my rocket building blog and do a search for "Tips".
 
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Thanks Daddy and Kat, you bring up a different perspective that is probably often overlooked. Thanks Hcm for the info, Anyone have experience with thin ca use in body tubes? Does this strengthen the tube or make it more brittle?
 
Thanks Daddy and Kat, you bring up a different perspective that is probably often overlooked. Thanks Hcm for the info, Anyone have experience with thin ca use in body tubes? Does this strengthen the tube or make it more brittle?

I have used this technique several times, but only on thin odd roc tubes that really needed it. It does strengthen the tube but there are drawbacks. Once sealed you can't glue to the new surface very well. That means all trifold mounts must be installed first. It is a bit messy, use a scrap balsa stick to spread inside tube. Use quality, super thin quick cure glue if possible. I use a good light to see what I am doing. I hold my breath (then light breathing while moving about the room,) don't squeeze too much in, do only a reasonable area at a time. Like our former President you must never inhale! CA fumes will only irritate, but be careful. It will add a bit of thickness to the tube, so nose cones might not fit again with out sanding. Keep the very runny glue under control!

I would not use CA tube strengthening as a common practice, it is not worth the effort and headaches. When I show it to the HPR guys I say I have made "POOR BOY" Phenolic. They just laugh and think I am crazy trying to strengthen thin LPR craft tubing instead of using real man MPR thick tube. LPR thin tube CA strengthening shows you are somewhat desperate, having to use home made, light and thin tubing in very questionable designs.
 
I have used this technique several times, but only on thin odd roc tubes that really needed it. It does strengthen the tube but there are drawbacks. Once sealed you can't glue to the new surface very well. That means all trifold mounts must be installed first. It is a bit messy, use a scrap balsa stick to spread inside tube. Use quality, super thin quick cure glue if possible. I use a good light to see what I am doing. I hold my breath (then light breathing while moving about the room,) don't squeeze too much in, do only a reasonable area at a time. Like our former President you must never inhale! CA fumes will only irritate, but be careful. It will add a bit of thickness to the tube, so nose cones might not fit again with out sanding. Keep the very runny glue under control!

I would not use CA tube strengthening as a common practice, it is not worth the effort and headaches. When I show it to the HPR guys I say I have made "POOR BOY" Phenolic. They just laugh and think I am crazy trying to strengthen thin LPR craft tubing instead of using real man MPR thick tube. LPR thin tube CA strengthening shows you are somewhat desperate, having to use home made, light and thin tubing in very questionable designs.

Oh haha, "POOR BOY" Phenolic I like it. I do understand there is a certain amount of risk involved with any rocket. Never thought too much about making shelf queens but perhaps some models are safer not being launched. I guess it may seem silly to some people, spending so much time on a Lpr, but I really enjoy them and find a lot of the kits more interesting design wise Ie models like Fliskits Decim8. I havent seen many Scifi futuristic mpr/hpr kits. I assume the higher power models are of more straight forward design?
 
Maybe I just need to grow up :lol: I have a few of the Estes Mpr rockets and enjoy the build, but the "more experimental or futuristic" designs really get me going. The Decim8 kit inparticular really tickles my fancy. I would like to work my way up to becoming certified, but I dont want to lose sight of the things I love most about model rocketry. Feel like I am just overthinking it now. :confused2:
 
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Estes Mosquito. I've built and launched literally dozens over the years. I think most of them got stuck, however, as they never came down. Now that's durable!
 
Iv got a few viking, up aerospace, and wizard bulk packs I got at the discount store. 20 bucks a bulk pack, 2 dollars a rocket hehe. So iv plenty of smaller rockets to launch and not worry about what happens to them. But the kits like my Estes screaming eagle I only have 1 of and they are getting harder to find. I think in the future I should just buy at least 2 of any rocket I really like. One for the shelf and one for fun!
 
The only ones that truly last are the ones that don't get flown. They're lightweight, deal with hot exhaust gasses, and best case at the end of a flight land in a semi-crash under a round parachute. Stuff tends to happen and they're only perfect once.
 
My LPR birds are all glassed and ride streamers on descent. They will still be flying 100-200 years from now.
 
I've been building and flying model rockets since the early 60's. I still have flyable models built in the late 70's and 80's with more the 100flights on each. These are for the most part built "Stock" with White glue, yellow carpenters glue and standard .013" thin walled Craft body tubes. The trick to keeping them flyable is to "Fly the Field" and do the necessary pre-launch preperation including selecting the proper motor matches with the right recovery systems for the field and flying conditions.

One of the very first things I learned is building LIGHT will greatly decrease the chances of Landing damage. The heavier the model the more likely there will be some sort of damage from rough handling, bumpy rides in the car, and of coarse hard landings.

I always have a baggie of various size Chutes and Streamers with snap swivel attachments that allow matching the Expected altitude with the on field weather conditions. One major trick to greatly reduce the chance of Chute Oscillation fin damage is to make all Chutes with a center air spill hole. For most 12" to 24" Plastic or mylar canopies a 3/4" hole is more then sufficent to completely stop chute oscillation.

Always replace the rubber band shockcords supplied by the manfactures as they are always WAY to short. replace them with either 1/8" oval elastic with 70-90lb kevlar shock lines, or for larger models over 1lb use 1/4" elastic with 100-130lb kevlar. The kevlar line need be only the length of the body tube, however I like to use at least 30" if attached around the motor mount with an overhand loop that exits the forward end of the body tube. To make an efficent "anti-zipper" simply attach a 1/2 or 3/4" wide x 3/4" long piece of masking tape doubled over the Kevlar shock line just inside the forward end of the body tube. Over the decades I've leaned the most Standard BT-5 to BT-60 size models can use a maximim of 36" of Kevlar and another 36" to 48" of 1/8" oval elastic to prevent the dreaded "Estes Dent" and help make the Shockcord last a very long time.

Another recovery lesson learned is to NOT attach the chute or streamer to the nosecone, instead attach to the shockcord about 2/3 the distance from the forward end of the Body with a Butterfly knot in the shockcord.

Papering balsa fins does greatly increase the strength without adding a lot of unnecessary weight like epoxy & Fibreglassing does. I like to decrease the thickness of the fin a bit by using about one thickness smaller Basswood. Basswood is a heavier then Balsa and Papered Balsa fins but with it's staight grain and extra strength is easier to finish then balsa. Standard butt on fins are all that is necessary with standard model rockets 1/4A - G motors with decent yellow glue or epoxy fillerts. I have MPR, 5-D12 clustered models that are all constructed with standard Balsa, Basswood, or Clear Polycarbonate fins that are Yellow Glue or Epoxy butt joint attached with 5 or 30minute epoxy fillets that have 50 or more flight without a single fin crack or problem.

Most .013 thin walled Craft tube models can easily last 30-50 flights without any reinforcment but if the model is intended to last a lifetime then adding an internal coupling just ahead of the motor stop will do the trick, absorbing most of the increased heat and after burn from the motors and protecting the area from crimping on landings as the model ages. As mentioned I have and still often fly models that were built in the late 70's and early 80's. that have logged over 100 flights. My original 1970 Saturn-V was retaired in 1999 at fligth 139 (our section number) but is still flyable.

Those are the most important things to making your models last a long time. They will not alway look prestine as when they were first finished but will be quite flight worthy if you follow these fairly easy tricks. Most Important is to always Fly the Field. Which means we really need to know what our models will do on a give motor & recovery system combination:) Simulations are our friend but NOT the gospel! simualtions will only be as good as the data put into the program and then should be allowed about 10% lower altitudes.
 
Boiling all this down (neglecting hangar rash and poor flight decisions), I think the biggest single secret to long life is dealing with the ejection charge burn zone just ahead of the motor mount. Shock cords can be replaced and fins glued back together, but a roasted from the inside body tube takes a lot more work to fix. There are several things you can do, some mentioned above already:
1) substitute a thicker type body tube (delays the inevitable somewhat, maybe not compatible with all designs)
2) install a thick coupler tube or other doubler in the crucial zone (extremely effective, not possible in all designs)
3) coat the burn zone with glue (epoxy or wood glue, almost always feasible)
4) custom light glass tubes (level=expert, for mass same as paper tube life will be somewhat longer). Lightly glassing the outside of a paper tube is not very effective since the paper underneath will still burn away.

If you pay attention to this and use hcmbanjo's fully replaceable shock cord system, your LPR models should live indefinitely until the rocket eating trees claim them. :)
 
Just Glassed a BT-5:

BT-% Glassaction 2002-12-31 001.jpg


Weight before glassing, 6g. Weight after glassing, 6g.

It already has the kevlar and streamer installed so that's why it's so heavy already.

BT-5 Glassed Tube Star Trooper Redux 2002-12-31 003.jpg
 
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Use oversized parachutes.
Use only rated hardware and swivels on harnesses
Always use swivels on rockets sensitive to hard landings
Upgrade to basswood over balsa on fins
Paper laminate any balsa that is used on fins that will hit the ground
Use twice as much shock cord as the manufacturer gives you
I use Kevlar or nylon as opposed to anything elastic
Build zipperless with a baffle when possible even if it means cutting a tube for separation
Replace thin walled tubes with better ones from Apogee, BMS, or LOC
Coat inside of all tubes with CA or epoxy
Coat outside of rocket with several layers of primer/paint to seal out moisture

And lastly, always double check your motor and recovery setup before walking to the pad!

EDIT: I forgot that wood glue is often the better choice over epoxy and CA glue. It creates a surprisingly strong bond between wood and paper tube.
 
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While I can't say that I build rockets with longevity in mind, I find that just simply making the effort to do a clean build and using basic but proven construction techniques goes a long way to keeping my rockets around. My DRM sees action at nearly every launch and the only real damage it has seen is a popped fin due to my error and a bad glue joint, it landed on asphalt after the chute failed to inflate. It has its fair share of battle scars but they are just cosmetic, I actually cleared over them a while back to retain the character.
 
I use thin ca on the forward end of the tube which does help longevity, but the biggest thing I use for long life is an external recovery attachment around the body tube, prevents zipper, distributes recovery load, reduces decent rate and the rocket lands horizontally reducing landing damage.

Frank
 
I've been building and flying model rockets since the early 60's. I still have flyable models built in the late 70's and 80's with more the 100flights on each. These are for the most part built "Stock" with White glue, yellow carpenters glue and standard .013" thin walled Craft body tubes. The trick to keeping them flyable is to "Fly the Field" and do the necessary pre-launch preperation including selecting the proper motor matches with the right recovery systems for the field and flying conditions.

One of the very first things I learned is building LIGHT will greatly decrease the chances of Landing damage. The heavier the model the more likely there will be some sort of damage from rough handling, bumpy rides in the car, and of coarse hard landings.

I always have a baggie of various size Chutes and Streamers with snap swivel attachments that allow matching the Expected altitude with the on field weather conditions. One major trick to greatly reduce the chance of Chute Oscillation fin damage is to make all Chutes with a center air spill hole. For most 12" to 24" Plastic or mylar canopies a 3/4" hole is more then sufficent to completely stop chute oscillation.

Always replace the rubber band shockcords supplied by the manfactures as they are always WAY to short. replace them with either 1/8" oval elastic with 70-90lb kevlar shock lines, or for larger models over 1lb use 1/4" elastic with 100-130lb kevlar. The kevlar line need be only the length of the body tube, however I like to use at least 30" if attached around the motor mount with an overhand loop that exits the forward end of the body tube. To make an efficent "anti-zipper" simply attach a 1/2 or 3/4" wide x 3/4" long piece of masking tape doubled over the Kevlar shock line just inside the forward end of the body tube. Over the decades I've leaned the most Standard BT-5 to BT-60 size models can use a maximim of 36" of Kevlar and another 36" to 48" of 1/8" oval elastic to prevent the dreaded "Estes Dent" and help make the Shockcord last a very long time.

Another recovery lesson learned is to NOT attach the chute or streamer to the nosecone, instead attach to the shockcord about 2/3 the distance from the forward end of the Body with a Butterfly knot in the shockcord.

Papering balsa fins does greatly increase the strength without adding a lot of unnecessary weight like epoxy & Fibreglassing does. I like to decrease the thickness of the fin a bit by using about one thickness smaller Basswood. Basswood is a heavier then Balsa and Papered Balsa fins but with it's staight grain and extra strength is easier to finish then balsa. Standard butt on fins are all that is necessary with standard model rockets 1/4A - G motors with decent yellow glue or epoxy fillerts. I have MPR, 5-D12 clustered models that are all constructed with standard Balsa, Basswood, or Clear Polycarbonate fins that are Yellow Glue or Epoxy butt joint attached with 5 or 30minute epoxy fillets that have 50 or more flight without a single fin crack or problem.

Most .013 thin walled Craft tube models can easily last 30-50 flights without any reinforcment but if the model is intended to last a lifetime then adding an internal coupling just ahead of the motor stop will do the trick, absorbing most of the increased heat and after burn from the motors and protecting the area from crimping on landings as the model ages. As mentioned I have and still often fly models that were built in the late 70's and early 80's. that have logged over 100 flights. My original 1970 Saturn-V was retaired in 1999 at fligth 139 (our section number) but is still flyable.

Those are the most important things to making your models last a long time. They will not alway look prestine as when they were first finished but will be quite flight worthy if you follow these fairly easy tricks. Most Important is to always Fly the Field. Which means we really need to know what our models will do on a give motor & recovery system combination:) Simulations are our friend but NOT the gospel! simualtions will only be as good as the data put into the program and then should be allowed about 10% lower altitudes.



Papering fins ADDS MORE WEIGHT than .75oz. cloth glassing unless you have some really light paper and adhesive.
 
Papering fins ADDS MORE WEIGHT than .75oz. cloth glassing unless you have some really light paper and adhesive.


Not so TopRamen: Even using Sig .5oz glass, fins papered with tracing vellium and water thinned white glue are lighter then epoxy glassed regardless of the balsa thickness.

I did get a set of Carbon Fibre/balsa fins to be lighter then the Tracing Vellium/white glue but had to really blot out all the excess epoxy.
Not to steel this thread: Have you tried tissuing or carbon fibre laminating 1/64 or 3/64 3ply aircraft plywood? Makes some extremely thin and stiff fins. Particularly if pressed between wax papered 1/2" Aluminum or Steel Plates in a Bench top Vise. These are mainly used for high performance PD and SD compeitition models but would certainly work on your fiberglassed standard Body tube models.
 
... use only sensible motors...

Now what is the fun in that! (we are talking LPR...)

As a kid I had a rocket that was originally built with 18mm MMT,
but that blew out on a flight. So I just made it into a 24mm min.
dia. rocket. Man did that thing fly!

Also my first Comanche-3, I think is still in orbit...
 
Not so TopRamen: Even using Sig .5oz glass, fins papered with tracing vellium and water thinned white glue are lighter then epoxy glassed regardless of the balsa thickness.

I did get a set of Carbon Fibre/balsa fins to be lighter then the Tracing Vellium/white glue but had to really blot out all the excess epoxy.
Not to steel this thread: Have you tried tissuing or carbon fibre laminating 1/64 or 3/64 3ply aircraft plywood? Makes some extremely thin and stiff fins. Particularly if pressed between wax papered 1/2" Aluminum or Steel Plates in a Bench top Vise. These are mainly used for high performance PD and SD compeitition models but would certainly work on your fiberglassed standard Body tube models.


I have not tried that, but thanks for the heads up! I will definitely do some research.
 
Now what is the fun in that! (we are talking LPR...)

As a kid I had a rocket that was originally built with 18mm MMT,
but that blew out on a flight. So I just made it into a 24mm min.
dia. rocket. Man did that thing fly!

Also my first Comanche-3, I think is still in orbit...

Fun is not important when you are flying for longevity. I don't know how many times my rocket has ended up in the lake and I say "Golly, I shouldda used a smaller motor!" Maybe like once a year flying every two weeks, not that often when I think about it.

That said I still have never used a 29mm Estes E16 because it is not the BIGGEST motor in its class hanging on the Hobby Lobby shelf, only F15s baby! The number of A8' and B6's I have used is also very, very low; "C6 OR BUST" I say!. Can not stand the C11, especially out here in the West, flying with space cowboys in the wide open spaces where the Buffalo roam. "Yer a flyin' a C11 and yer picante sauce is made in New York City! Honey, were gonna have to shut you down." I have only ever launched an A10 in 13mm, I just can't bring myself to buy the smaller ones. Why buy a motor with lots of empty space in the tube?
 
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I've been working on a Daddyisabar->English translator and just tried it out on the above post. Now there is just a smoking hole where my Mac used to be. Needs more work I guess.

So let's just enjoy that one in all its original beauty.

Thank you Daddyisabar for always keeping things entertaining, if sometimes inscrutable. :)

Posted from my phone, still functional.
 
I've been working on a Daddyisabar->English translator and just tried it out on the above post. Now there is just a smoking hole where my Mac used to be. Needs more work I guess.

So let's just enjoy that one in all its original beauty.

Thank you Daddyisabar for always keeping things entertaining, if sometimes inscrutable. :)

Posted from my phone, still functional.

I have flown at the CRASH launch site in the Denver area several times, and I can tell you that I was quite surprised when I met Mr. Daddyisabar. He seems almost normal in person. Go figure!?! :)
 
Use oversized parachutes.
Use only rated hardware and swivels on harnesses
Always use swivels on rockets sensitive to hard landings
Upgrade to basswood over balsa on fins
Paper laminate any balsa that is used on fins that will hit the ground
Use twice as much shock cord as the manufacturer gives you
I use Kevlar or nylon as opposed to anything elastic
Build zipperless with a baffle when possible even if it means cutting a tube for separation
Replace thin walled tubes with better ones from Apogee, BMS, or LOC
Coat inside of all tubes with CA or epoxy
Coat outside of rocket with several layers of primer/paint to seal out moisture

And lastly, always double check your motor and recovery setup before walking to the pad!

EDIT: I forgot that wood glue is often the better choice over epoxy and CA glue. It creates a surprisingly strong bond between wood and paper tube.

Yes ..agreed..technically you can replace all the parts in a Estes type rocket and use the nose cone and decals and still be money ahead.

I also like replacing the paper CRs with a basswood or liteply upgrade - you can use the paper one as a template !

With a heavier MMT you can make it longer too .. the stock seems to short.

24 or 29mm MMT go to Estes retainers , no hooks ! If you fly an Estes motor you can make a thrustring out of 1/4 inch tape . If you fly anything else you will be ready to go

Kenny
 
I've been working on a Daddyisabar->English translator and just tried it out on the above post. Now there is just a smoking hole where my Mac used to be. Needs more work I guess.

So let's just enjoy that one in all its original beauty.

Thank you Daddyisabar for always keeping things entertaining, if sometimes inscrutable. :)

Posted from my phone, still functional.

Yer a dern tootin dat phancy phone ain't gonna work out on the prairie. No rocket eating trees and being completely out of touch with the modern world is key to LPR model rocket longevity!
 

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