Spinning Rockets?

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darthgriffin

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So my brain is comming up with grand ideas for rockets and one of them involves making the rocket spin like a bullet.

Has anyone ever done this or is there some safety concern that I'm overlooking?

I figured if I mounted all the fins slightly off-verticle to creat the spin, and place an outer ring connecting all the wing tips that will ensure a verticle take off.

Is this doable or am I off my rocker?
 
I built a rocket that used spin for backup stability. The rocket was about 7 feet tall, and about 2" diameter. The three fins were about 8 to 9 inches wide, with an engine mounted on the end of each. With an engine in the main tube, this was four engines. I was worried about not having all engines light, and having the rocket arc into the ground. So, I put a spin tab on the bottom of each fin. This way, if one of the outboards didn't light, it would circle around some central axis. I also connected each of the outboard engines to each other with additial fin stock, sort of like your proposal for the ring.

Each time I launched it - twice - all four engines lit, so I just had a corkscrewing tall rocket.

Estes has made a rocket, the Spin Fin I think, 1355.

(Edit:Googled, and it may be that Quest also had a spinning rocket, QU-2009. I removed a possible misremembery about Centuri having such a rocket since I don't yet know how to strikeout my errors.)
 
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Nope, you're not crazy.

There was an old Centuri kit, the "Twister," that had canted fins.

Also, the Estes three-stage "Farside."

And thinking back, the old Estes' technical manual showed three methods of inducing spin! (assymetrical airfoils, tabs, and fins mounted off-vertical, as you suggested.)
 
Does the spinning effect look cool or can you not notice it at that distance?
 
I've got a Odd'l Rockets kit called the Pipeline.
The tubes are canted. The airstream passes through the tubes and it goes into a tight spin on the way up.
There is only three tubes on this instead of the normal six. Canting the tubes helps stabilize it.

Depending on the angle of the tubes or fins, in can affect the smoke trail.
Bruce Levison's Corkscrew is one of the best spinning designs out there.

Just don't put too much cant on the fins or spin tabs.
On an early prototype of the Pipeline I put too much angle on the tubes. It spun too fast and came apart.
(But then again, those tubes were glued on with CA - a bad choice!)

Pipeline.jpg
 
Check Apogee's website...they have a video on how to make spin tabs for a rocket. You have to cut the fin in two at a selected mark and then angle sand bother piece to form the tabs..pretty cool technique
 
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The above is my attempt to make a spinning tube fin rocket. I was so successful I can only launch it with a C6, or smaller, or else it spins so fast it destabilizes itself.
 
A design that I have used before is simply sanding each fin into an assymetrical fin. Simillar in design and function to an airplane wing. Leave one side of the fin board straight and flat, then sand the opposite side like the profile of a wing with a rounded leading edge and a long taper to the trailing edge. This causes a slight low pressure area on the curved side of the fin, at low air speeds the effect is minimal and the rocket is quite stable in flight as the rocket accelerates the spin rate increases. Even sanding just one fin with this design will produce results.
 
I was so successful I can only launch it with a C6, or smaller, or else it spins so fast it destabilizes itself.
Your model is beautiful and it was quite an effort but a rocket will not go unstable because it's spinning too fast.
Unfortunately, I'm sorry to say, the "destabilization" is not due to you being "so successful", on the contrary; the reason that it goes unstable on high speed spins is most likely because the angle and direction of the air flow is not symmetrical.
If each one of those ports are not identical to the others, than it will suffer an imbalance and the top of the rocket will gyrate uncontrollably and appear unstable.
Sort of like having a ceiling fan where one of the blades has a different pitch; at low speeds it looks fine but put it on high and... LOOK OUT!
 
The Estes DOM Flyin' Stovepipe boost glider was designed to spin during the boost in order to impart the rolling that was required in order to induce the tube to start gliding following separation. I have always been intrigued by this design, but I haven't gotten to build it yet.
 
I'm sorry to say, the "destabilization" is not due to you being "so successful", on the contrary; the reason that it goes unstable on high speed spins is most likely because the angle and direction of the air flow is not symmetrical.
If each one of those ports are not identical to the others, than it will suffer an imbalance and the top of the rocket will gyrate uncontrollably and appear unstable.

Okay, I can get behind that, it is more likely than my idea which is that any spinning object has to be balanced along the axis of the spin; such as the wheels on a car or motorcycle.

I just figured that the rocket wasn’t and at high RPMs that imbalance would start causing it to wobble.
 
The Estes DOM Flyin' Stovepipe boost glider was designed to spin during the boost in order to impart the rolling that was required in order to induce the tube to start gliding following separation. I have always been intrigued by this design, but I haven't gotten to build it yet.

What a neat design! It's like a Scout with something extra!
 
I'm surprised no one as mentioned Spin Stabilization has and IS Playing a major role in sounding rocket design for unguided Full size rocketry since the very beginning of the space age. Nearly all the early sounding rockets were designed to obtain a given roll rate during boost and coast phases of their flights. Some were even fitting with "despin" apparatus to slow or stop the guidance spin just before payload deployment...some really fun stuff. just about every payload design has as part of it's preflight testing a high speed spin test.

Model Rockets can use spin for various effects, at the cost of some altitude. increasing spin incrased drag reducing altitude. it doesn't take much misalignment of a single fin to induce some roll in the models flight.
the easiest way to induce spin is to assymetric sand fin or fins. or build up or bend a lower fin tip corner (as is done on all varients of the Bull-PUP). Adding spin tabs or canting fins also works but must be symmetric or some rather violent tail whipping can occur. It only takes the tinyest of cants to induce a good amount of spin so be careful how much you add. When I built my first Omaga 2-stage booster for my original cinaroc back in the 70's I decided to assymetric airfoil all 8 fins on the bird, making sure to align them all with the lift going in the same direction. WOW! we can't watch my first single stage super-8 flim as it gives you a headache the spin is so fast. Made for some interesting smoke trails, somewhere I have a few pics of that flight, I may not have scanned them yet;)
 
I'm surprised no one as mentioned Spin Stabilization has and IS Playing a major role in sounding rocket design for unguided Full size rocketry since the very beginning of the space age. Nearly all the early sounding rockets were designed to obtain a given roll rate during boost and coast phases of their flights. Some were even fitting with "despin" apparatus to slow or stop the guidance spin just before payload deployment...some really fun stuff. just about every payload design has as part of it's preflight testing a high speed spin test.

Model Rockets can use spin for various effects, at the cost of some altitude. increasing spin incrased drag reducing altitude. it doesn't take much misalignment of a single fin to induce some roll in the models flight.
the easiest way to induce spin is to assymetric sand fin or fins. or build up or bend a lower fin tip corner (as is done on all varients of the Bull-PUP). Adding spin tabs or canting fins also works but must be symmetric or some rather violent tail whipping can occur. It only takes the tinyest of cants to induce a good amount of spin so be careful how much you add. When I built my first Omaga 2-stage booster for my original cinaroc back in the 70's I decided to assymetric airfoil all 8 fins on the bird, making sure to align them all with the lift going in the same direction. WOW! we can't watch my first single stage super-8 flim as it gives you a headache the spin is so fast. Made for some interesting smoke trails, somewhere I have a few pics of that flight, I may not have scanned them yet;)

Interesting points, Micro...

Gotta ask, tho... WHY would you want to spin a CAMERA rocket?? Half the vids posted nowdays using the keyfob cams are practically unwatchable due to extreme spin rates from fin misalignments or unsymmetrical airfoils... In fact on one website I have bookmarked, a guy has invented an anti-spin electronic guidance system using a pair of small canards to correct any tendency of the rocket to spin, making his videos rock-solid...

Just askin'....
Later! OL JR :)
 
The Estes DOM Flyin' Stovepipe boost glider was designed to spin during the boost in order to impart the rolling that was required in order to induce the tube to start gliding following separation. I have always been intrigued by this design, but I haven't gotten to build it yet.

The actual designer of the Flying Stovepipe showed up at a LUNAR launch in Livermore about 11/12 years back.

He had a Flying Stovepipe with him. He confessed that it only glided about half of the time. I don't recall how it performed that day.
 
You can actually get a rocket to spin if the fins are glued on straight as an arrow. Simply by sanding a one sided airfoil onto the same side of each fin will produce a spinning flight. :D
 
I built and fly an oil funnel I bought at Walmart. It has no fins and is spin stabilized with a little help from the base drag like a saucer. It flies on 4 C6-3 motors.
It took two funnels and 4 builds before it worked right and it's not good on windy days, but it does fly pretty well. It does get a little squirrelly as the motors start to burn out.

Click to play movie


There is a central tube the launch rod goes through. The motors are all canted and the motor holder fits over the central tube and inserts into the funnel. When the ejection charges go off, the motor carrier ejects from the back and pulls the chute out. I have since replaced the short elastic with Kevlar.

Version 3 03.JPG

Version 3 02.JPG

Version 3 01.JPG
 
Put some colorful marks in a pattern on your rocket, and when they spin they can make a really cool effect. You can do the same with glow in the dark paint or markers.
 
Has anyone built a canted, clustered engine mount AND used spin tabs?
I built a Deuce's Wild with canted fins and it makes a double helix smoke trail. I didn't cant the fins very much since I wanted a slow roll.

I drew the fin guide lines straight and put the bottom left root edge against the line and the top right root edge against the line so it was only canted the width of a fin.
 
Nope, you're not crazy.

There was an old Centuri kit, the "Twister," that had canted fins.

Also, the Estes three-stage "Farside."

And thinking back, the old Estes' technical manual showed three methods of inducing spin! (assymetrical airfoils, tabs, and fins mounted off-vertical, as you suggested.)

I had both of those kits.

The Twister was small, light, fast. It was tough to tell it was spinning. Zip! - and gone. Streamer recovery. I don't remember ever putting anything more than a B6-4 in it.

I also had the Farside. It was both an altitude (field size) and monetary (three engines!) proposition to fly. The first stage by itself was like a taller Twister: hard to tell it was spinning. Sometimes I flew it with two stages, and rarely with three. With the lower stages on, using those large, thin fins, you could here a fluttering noise as it began to spin up. First stage spin was noticeable. But the drag from spinning, and the very large fin areas, limited the altitude. First-stage burnout was fairly low. Even the second stage didn't (in my fading memory) gain much altitude, but by the time the second stage dropped off, spin was hard to visibly detect (without being very far back). Third stage was always out-of-sight, with no visible roll from my typical launch position. My vantage points were always relatively close to the launcher, so I never got to see these from a good distance.
 
Interesting points, Micro...

Gotta ask, tho... WHY would you want to spin a CAMERA rocket?? Half the vids posted nowdays using the keyfob cams are practically unwatchable due to extreme spin rates from fin misalignments or unsymmetrical airfoils... In fact on one website I have bookmarked, a guy has invented an anti-spin electronic guidance system using a pair of small canards to correct any tendency of the rocket to spin, making his videos rock-solid...

Just askin'....
Later! OL JR :)

Well we all do silly things as we grow in the hobby. My original cineroc was kind of early in the building curve. My thinking was I wanted as Straight a flight path as possible thinking the roll would cease at ejection..Which it does. But MAN the assent phase is unwatchable at normal speed, it's send you to the bucket quicker then anything I've ever seen LOL!
My re-constucted (Cloned) Omega Booster still flying my original Cineroc camera has fins that are precision aligned, with leading and trailing edges rounded only. Flyes straight and true with almost no roll at all.
 
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The sustainer of my Magnum+ spins due to some unintentional fin warping. I really like the effect. I'll try to post a pic later of the fins. I couldn't have made them twist so perfectly if I would have tried.

@Handeman - I love the flying funnel idea!

EDIT: Here are a few pics of my unintentional twisting fins. (I'm still repairing this rocket after a staging disaster last month, hence the crappy paint.)

IMG_1161.jpgIMG_1160.jpg
 
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check out this odd rocket spinning beast.

[video=youtube;vVtgEih68wQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVtgEih68wQ[/video]
 
I can think of at least one issue that a spinning rocket would cause.

If it spun on the way up, upon deployment, how would you keep the parachute or streamer from tangling and winding up as well.

Or were you thinking of a one-way trip, with NO recovery?:wink:
 

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