Vulcan Rocket Motors?

No. They could be flown in others with adaptape. Amazing what masking tape will do.

I built one with a 29 mm motor mount and used tape for the Dark Star motors.

iIRC the Vulcan 54's were 2 1/16" rather than 2 1/8".
The tape treatment was required for them also. No big deal as the tape would already be out for making a thrust ring.

M

JDcluster said:

So you could only fly Dark Star motors in NC kits......


JD

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Wow, those guys thought that through didn't they!

As requested, I took a few photos of the Vulcans:

From front to back:

29mm F40-6 Smoky Sam. Love these little things. The equivalent of the NCR by Estes F62 Darkstars I love to fly and as mentioned, photo'ed earlier!
38mm H76-10. Loc Vulcanite owners; this is the little gem that the Vulcanite (H76) was named for. Interesting feature to come...
54mm J250 Low Smoke: As Mark mentioned, annoyingly undersized. Have heard of a few of these going "pop", but never seen one fail personaly...
75mm "M2000": supposedly the second (of two) that was made for the first LDRS in Hartsel, CO (LDRS 6, 1987). Though I look forward to burning this one, I doubt the "M" designation as well as the "2000" average thrust!



Closer Ups:

My small stash was all manufactured in the late 80's...before the infamous video fiasco. I am not the original owner...these were purchased from an early Tripolitan with a low number. Anywho: as mentioned above, I love the F40...I have burned several and greatly look forward to burning more. Like the great NCR-BE F62 Darkstars, they light easy, burn predictably, and delays seem right on! I'll miss them when the remaining stock is gone! Next up is the H76...believe this to be of the original "low smoke" variety. Long burn, single use, and a bit unique, but we'll save that for a later photo...



Then the 54mm (52.5mm) J250. Low Smoke variety, also manufactured in '88. Masking tape ringed to fit a Vaughn Brothers Extreme 54... vintage combo! I have heard of a few CATO's with this particular motor, but haven't witnessed any personally.



Back to the H76...Offset nozzle; that's wonky! It's one thing to have an offset core, entirely another to have an offset nozzle! Corkscrew coming! Like the older Aerotech (and any other manufacturers) single use manufacturers from the pre-molded plastic case/nozzle setup, the closures were poured epoxy.



Then onto the big boy: supposedly an "M2000" that was made to be the first M flown at an LDRS. Legend has it that two were made, one flew at LDRS 6 in Hartsel, CO, this is the other. Disclaimer: I have no idea if that is true or not, nor does it necessarily increase the value of the motor to me. I like "different" motors, Vulcans have always performed well for me *knock on wood*, and the prospect of a value priced single use baby M was appealing at the time of purchase! So, the G-12 case is roughly the same length as the CTI 75-4G case: see comparison:



Graphite nozzle potted in epoxy on the business end:



And a short grain's worth of voided empty space on the forward end. I was told that this was because the motor mated to an airframe for a true minimum diameter ship.



Based upon the length of the case in comparison with the CTI Case, I'd say it probably closely compares to the CTI 75-4G 4025-L1355 Smoky Sam. We shall see when the time is right!

That's about it for now. Enjoying the Vulcan discussion!

-Eric-

Initiator001 said:

Here's a picture of a NCRBE G70-10 Dark Star motor next to a G62-6 motor.

I was told the Vulcan propellant was cut into equal length Bates grains.
Two of these grains were used for the F62 motors.
Three grains for the G70 motors.
There was talk of a single=grain 'E' motor but I don't know if any were made.

View attachment 257872


There was also an F62-9 motor which was to be used in a never-released kit called the Orbit. The Orbit looked much like a stretched Enerjet 1340/Maniac/Eliminator.
The Orbit would have a stronger body tube and be weighted down to keep it's velocity below Mach 1.
This kit was to be part of a Starter-Set (Orbit, Launch Controller, Launch Pad but no motors) which would retail for $49.99.
The Orbit Starter Set was never released.

At NARAM-42 in Colorado, I flew a modified Estes Maniac kit with an F62-9 Dark Star motor (It had been NAR cetified).
That thing took off like a rocket! :wink:
A second or two later the rocket suffered structural failure.

Here's the Maniac before launch:

View attachment 257873

The F62 Dark Star motors were an excellent product. Too bad they didn't last long.

View attachment 257874

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Cool! I also flew a Maniac with an F62 DS. Survived the boost and recovery just fine, but drifted offsite and a search of the surrounding farm field was unproductive! To this day, I always keep a 29mm Maniac/Eliminator/Challenger II/Longshot/Enerjet 1340 in the fleet (once you find a properly sized 29mm tube, it's almost too easy!).

-Eric-

pyrobob said:

Really cool. Did Vulcan go straight to market or did they have a retail network? I'm thinking Ross Dunton at Magnum had some.

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IIRC, Ross *did* have some Vulcan H100's when he came down to the HPR part of the "Floricon '94" event, because I got some. Something like 256N-secs, better than the old classic Aerotech H70's. Wound up shredding the original version of Astron SST on that, thinking that since it flew so well on the 'other' H's this too would go. Not quite.....

Not only that, but *if* my memory serves correctly, I do believe none other than John Cato himself attended, since I think I saw him right there at Ross' truck as well. Two legends, one launch!! Wears a pretty unique cowboy-ish hat, he did (does?)

pyrobob said:

Really cool. Did Vulcan go straight to market or did they have a retail network? I'm thinking Ross Dunton at Magnum had some.

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Vulcan had a few dealers one of which was Ross/Magnum.

Vulcan's main income source was government contracts for rocket motors. Dixon didn't do much on the hobby side for this reason. Getting Vulcan motors at times was not easy.

pyrobob said:

Any idea why they chose to change the name?

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Rumor I heard back then was the name change was done to make it more 'family friendly'.

pyrobob said:

Any idea why the motors were discontinued? Same for the kits?

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I understand that sales of the NCRBE products did not reach their expected goals. Given more time and with Estes' distribution network I would have bet the line would have been a good seller.

Another 'interesting' story I heard about the product line being discontinued had to do with royalties to be paid to the owners of NCR once a specific amount of sales was reached. According to
this the management at Estes discontinued the NCRBE product line just before sales reached the level at which royalties would have to be paid out.

JDcluster said:

So you could only fly Dark Star motors in NC kits......


JD

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This is true. Estes did not want those evil Brand 'A' motors being flown in the NCRBE kits.

I remember comments on ROL/RMR when this was discovered. A person building the NCRBE kits had to swap out the motor mount tube with a 'true' 29mm I.D. tube.
If they forgot then one would have to peel the inside layer of paper from the motor mount tube.

Estes did only one production run of the F62 motors. There was a later product run of these motors but it was no more than one-thousand units.
Many folks discovered after building the NCRBE kits 'stock' that 'other' brands of motors did not fit.

With Estes NCR kits having smaller motors. It may have hurt there sales in the long run. Either I modify it to 29mm or if the Estes NCR motors arn't available I can't fly

Well picked this little gem up last night on my way home



And a whole score of single use motors.

pyrobob said:

Really cool. Did Vulcan go straight to market or did they have a retail network? I'm thinking Ross Dunton at Magnum had some.

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Don't know what type of distribution they had, but B&B Hobbies in Snellville, GA sold them in and around 1990. I still have a few F and G motors.

Thanks all for the confirmations on NCR-BE Darkstar motors being Smokey Sams, I thought that was right. I was lucky enough to fly a couple of those back in the day and always enjoyed them as they had a great roar and a lot of kick—much different than Black Jack propellant, which was the only black smoke propellant I had seen at the time. The F62’s were killer in the Big Brute!

Also thanks to all who posted pictures of their “Vulcan stashes”…keep ‘em coming! How about some flight pictures? If anyone ever puts one of these oldies a rocket you better take pics and video. Especially that M2000 and H76, Eric! That offset nozzle is definitely wonky and had to impart spin.

If anyone is willing to part with a motor or two in your stash, or have some tips on where I might be able to get my hands on some, please PM me. I would be very interested if the price was right. Would love to say I flew a Vulcan or two.

jcato said:

Marcus, I have some more photos of some of these 'times' - but this thread is more about Vulcan and doesn't need to be hijacked by me on this topic.………….."Legend"?? Not so sure about that…..……..I thank you for using the more noble term ……………..I notice your avatar has an individual playing a tenor………. I'm an alto and bari fellow myself - john.

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John, I would certainly entertain a thread with your Nike stuff or any "old-time" pics, really. That could be a great opportunity for others who have old pics as well. And the term legend works for me! Your last name is Cato, that's pretty legendary in and of itself.

Correct, I am a tenor player. Bari too, I just haven't played it too much since college because I don't own one and they are damn expensive!!! $4-5K minimum these days for a good quality horn. I'm a jazz/funk player and have a horn line, The Midwood Horns, that I hire out to local bands who want a horn section for a live performance or on their recording. I've played full time in the past but it's become my "permanent side job," if you will. I play with various Charlotte, NC area groups. Probably haven't heard of any of them except for KCO, which was formerly Chairmen of the Board. One original member left! I'm their first sub on tenor. Sorry for any hijacking...feel free to PM a response!

Marcus, come out to the ROCC launch and we'll talk about Vulcan motors. My company, Starflight Industries, used to sell Vulcan motors back in the mid 90's. I always had a few dozen of the H100's on hand since they were a great certification motor. I think I sold them for $18 each.
The 38mm H300 was a fast burner in those days and the L750 was a 54 mm monster!
Scott made some great motors but was a bit worried about the hobby end of the business. Dealing with government contracts made him a bit concerned about his motors falling into the 'wrong hands'.
When Estes contracted him to make motors, they had him making so many just to static burn that he just got sick and tired of it.

marcusSRG said:

Thanks all for the confirmations on NCR-BE Darkstar motors being Smokey Sams, I thought that was right. I was lucky enough to fly a couple of those back in the day and always enjoyed them as they had a great roar and a lot of kick—much different than Black Jack propellant, which was the only black smoke propellant I had seen at the time. The F62’s were killer in the Big Brute!

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I agree!!

Rcktnut, nice! Love that dark, dark smoke!! Seems blacker than (CTI) SS and FJ.

marcusSRG said:

Rcktnut, nice! Love that dark, dark smoke!! Seems blacker than (CTI) SS and FJ.

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Yeah, in the few that I've seen (and that being a very long time ago and many of those being on Earl Cagle videos...) I was always left with the impression that they had the most dense black smoke and oomph off the pad. Mostly subjective, but that's how I viewed Vulcan Smokey Sam's.

I guess what helped the F-62's on the impressive scale is that it was a full 100% - 80Ns. F. Most of the F's available now are skimpy's. (skimpy on the Ns.) There are only a few over 70 Ns most are under 60 Ns.

Didn't realize that. That really is a mean F then.

rcktnut said:

I guess what helped the F-62's on the impressive scale is that it was a full 100% - 80Ns. F. Most of the F's available now are skimpy's. (skimpy on the Ns.) There are only a few over 70 Ns most are under 60 Ns.

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Good point. I think the fact they were core burners also helped. Most everything else in this impulse class, especially back then, have c-slots grain configs.

In an earlier post I mentioned the never released NCRBE Orbit Starter Set.

I just happened to find the computer file into which I had scanned the announcement.
It was a fax and had faded a bit by the time I scanned it.

Here's the bit about the Orbit:

marcusSRG said:

Love that dark, dark smoke!! Seems blacker than (CTI) SS and FJ.

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The NCRBE Dark Star motors appeared to make the darkest/most dense smoke of any motor I remember watching.

Here's two picture of my NCRBE kits powered by F62 Dark Star motors:

View attachment 258379

Cool thread loving the history.


TA

My NCR Phantom 4000 on it's first flight using a Vulcan low-smoke G at the old airport in Huntsville. Picture credit: Matt Steele.

thobin said:

Cool thread loving the history.


TA

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Totally agree!

RoyAtl said:

<img src="https://www.rocketryforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=258396"/> My NCR Phantom 4000 on it's first flight using a Vulcan low-smoke G at the old airport in Huntsville. Picture credit: Matt Steele.

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Sweet. Not much in the way of special effects, all power! I've noticed LS tends to have a white flame. Pretty sure the motors in the attached pic are LS...from the '89 LOC catalog, Top Gun rocket.

marcusSRG said:

Sweet. Not much in the way of special effects, all power! I've noticed LS tends to have a white flame. Pretty sure the motors in the attached pic are LS...from the '89 LOC catalog, Top Gun rocket.

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I love the White Lightning, but I'm extremely fond of the old Enerjet and ProJet and others of the era that had no smoke, and a progressive burn that slowly lifted the rocket off the launch rod then disappeared! Like the Lunar Module lifting off the moon.

My personal favorite was the i160 hellfire, I burned several in my earlier 4" Swats. Ken Allen sold Vulcan, I would buy the H100's 5 at a time.

marcusSRG said:

Sweet. Not much in the way of special effects, all power! I've noticed LS tends to have a white flame. Pretty sure the motors in the attached pic are LS...from the '89 LOC catalog, Top Gun rocket.

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That's pretty cool exhaust. Gotta love the Top Gun and the picture of the clustered motors. I hope to see more of these types of flights in the future.