level three kit recommendations

Well, I'll nearly done with my build in which I'll be flying some L's. I'm already forward thinking about getting that Level 3 and was wondering if anyone has any recommendations for a kit.

Get the Polecat Aerospace 3/4 scale Nike Smoke!!!

2 words Scratch Build. Anyone can build a kit, design and build your own rocket.

For my level 3 used a Polecat Aerospace 10" Thumper that I bought from Jack at Whats up Hobbies. All of the parts are well made and the fit was perfect.

Andy

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kandsrockets said:

2 words Scratch Build. Anyone can build a kit, design and build your own rocket.

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Agreed. I feel that it should be a requirement to scratch build a L3 rocket. At that level you should easily be able to do so. More importantly it shows you know how to properly design a rocket, not just assemble parts from a box in which everything is precut and measured.

That said - for a quality kit, go with Performance Rocketry's 5" or 6" all fiberglass Econoline series, either the Intimidator or Competitor. I like the fins on the Intimidator over the Competitor's.

Here is what folks have used and reported on EMRR:

CLICK HERE

Nick

MarkM said:

Agreed. I feel that it should be a requirement to scratch build a L3 rocket. At that level you should easily be able to do so. More importantly it shows you know how to properly design a rocket, not just assemble parts from a box in which everything is precut and measured.

That said - for a quality kit, go with Performance Rocketry's 5" or 6" all fiberglass Econoline series, either the Intimidator or Competitor. I like the fins on the Intimidator over the Competitor's.

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I agree with Mark on all points here, But if you do a Kit the PR kits are Great! I had Curtis make me a 6" Mad Dog for my L3, I'll be flying Both that on an M1315W and my Intimidator 5 on an M650W at Red Glare 5 this weekend if you want to see them, Or Here https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?t=41389 I also Like the Fins design of the Mad Dog & Intimidator MUCH more than the Competitor.

GaryT said:

I agree with Mark on all points here, But if you do a Kit the PR kits are Great! I had Curtis make me a 6" Mad Dog for my L3, I'll be flying Both that on an M1315W and my Intimidator 5 on an M650W at Red Glare 5 this weekend if you want to see them, Or Here https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?t=41389 I also Like the Fins design of the Mad Dog & Intimidator MUCH more than the Competitor.

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I will definitely check them out at Red Glare. Thanks.

I appreciate other's opinions here. I too want to scratch build a big project. However there is a project that I want to do and fly it at LDRS. Since it will be a large project requiring a level 3 certification, I wanted to CERT rather quickly beforehand just in case it took me a few tries. That was why I was thinking about a kit, but I suppose I could scratch build something just as quickly.

I definitly agree on the PR kits. My Competitor 5 takes a lot of abuse.Already launched it on a KBA M3500 and 2 weeks ago on a KBA K1750. Also makes it easier on the tech inspections since my L3 sponcer lives 100 miles away.

One reason I used a kit was that instantly had a lot of large rocket parts I could use latter on. Now that I am certified with a proven design I can experiment with a new booster design that a level three certification rocket does not allow(clusters,air starts) and use the electronics, av-bay, payload bay, parachutes, shock cords and nosecone to form a complete a new rocket. This is like having two or three different rockets just by switching the booster back and forth. I have done this with my level two rocket with great success.

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pyrovette20 said:

I definitly agree on the PR kits. My Competitor 5 takes a lot of abuse.Already launched it on a KBA M3500 and 2 weeks ago on a KBA K1750. Also makes it easier on the tech inspections since my L3 sponcer lives 100 miles away.

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How high did it go on the M3500?

The Performance Rocketry Competitor 4 makes a great L3 cert rocket kit and it is simple to build. I made my L3 cert flight with an M1315W to 16,345 ft. It has flown a K695R to 4,446 ft and a AT M1850W for the 75/7680 casing to 18,600+ Ft and came back asking for more.

Here is a launch picture by CLS of the launch on the M1850W.

I did my L3 with a Performance Rocketry Competitor 5 it is a easy kit to build and will take any thing you want to load it with. here is my build thread
https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=35793

MarkM said:

Agreed. I feel that it should be a requirement to scratch build a L3 rocket. At that level you should easily be able to do so. More importantly it shows you know how to properly design a rocket, not just assemble parts from a box in which everything is precut and measured.

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I find statements like this to be absolutely ridiculous. No, it absolutely should NOT be a requirement for L3. There is not a lot of difference between building a kit and scratch building your rocket.

In almost every case in rocketry, scratch building only means that you have access to tools, know how to use those tools and have an area to use those tools. It does not mean you know how to *design* a rocket. Most scratch builders aren't running through calculations to get a specific fin or nose cone profile to achieve a particular performance or flight profile. They are simply making the parts to assemble a rocket. The difference between that and buying a kit is the kit has the parts already made, so you get to skip that step. You still have to assemble the rocket, you still have to plan for the recovery, ejection and motor. You still have to *know* your rocket for your L3 cert.

Scatch Built is my vote... you don't really need tools if you design it and order everything from PML.

Graham Orr said:

Scatch Built is my vote... you don't really need tools if you design it and order everything from PML.

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Unless you are designing something so unique that there's nothing else available that comes even close, there's really not much difference.

I find statements like this to be absolutely ridiculous. No, it absolutely should NOT be a requirement for L3. There is not a lot of difference between building a kit and scratch building your rocket.

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Again, I agree with SpartaChris. We must be long lost brothers.

I also believe unless you are building some crazy configuration of a rocket, a 3FNC or 4FNC scratch built rocket is not much different than a kit.

In either case, you still need to simulate your model, choose your engine, understand where your Cg / Cp is, build your electronics bay, and understand and use the proper techniques required for an L3 rocket during the build etc... And if with a kit build, you'll still likely be deviating from the instructions by adding glass to the fins, reinforcing certain items, or even making major modifications to it.

As SpartaChris has said, for that type of rocket, the only thing you gain with a kit is the fact you may not have to cut bulkheads yourself etc... However, most scratch builders I know don't do this either - they still buy pre-fabricated bulkheads etc...

Both NAR and TRA do not have rules that require a scratch built rocket for the L3 cert flight, so lets not all think we are ABOVE the law and impose that Skycopp use a scratch built rocket.

Lets let *HIM* make the decision to which works best for him.

skycopp said:

How high did it go on the M3500?

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Dumb dumb me turned the altimeters off before I got a read out on the M3500. It was my L3 attempt. The main never fired and it fell from about 13,000 on a 2 foot drouge and only got scratched up. The only other problem I had was the 75/7600 AMW was so long it was about 2'' away from the avionics bay. I had to wrap the harness and drouge around the motor. Now I have a 2' extension on the lower section. On the KBA K1750 it went to 4171'

Necromancer said:

Again, I agree with SpartaChris. We must be long lost brothers.

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No kidding. Necromancer and SpartaChris on the same side, Cats and dogs living together, mass hysteria!

It drives me nuts when people say that all L3 birds should be scratch built. To me it's an elitist statement with very little basis for it.

I like scratch building as much as the next guy. In fact, I built my L3 bird from scratch, including the nose cone. However, if time or space or access to tools were a constraint, then kit building is going to be the better way to go. Not everyone has the luxury of having adequate room or tools to store materials or house power tools. Not everyone has someone close to them with proper room or tools to borrow. So from that standpoint, a kit is the better way to go.

And when you factor in that the majority of rockets are the same, you find that there's no real design work going on with the construction of the vast majority of rockets. They are essentially the same 3 or 4 fin with a nose cone design. Yeah, some rockets have different fin or nose cone shapes, but the concepts are still the same.

Regardless of whether you build from a kit, buy the separate parts already made and then assemble, or fabricate and then assemble your own parts, you still have to go through the process of proper motor selection. You still have to go through the process of planning your recovery system, including deployment, descent rate, ground testing, which altimeters to use, etc. You still have to build the rocket strong enough to handle the motors you are planning on flying, which can mean making some alterations to the kit such as glassing fins or foaming a fin can or something like that. And you still have to know where your CG and CP is, which means either doing the manual calculations or using some kind of simulation software such as Rocksim.

So really there isn't a whole lot of difference between building a kit and scratch building, other than some people prefer to scratch build and enjoy being a craftsman more than flying the rocket.

Lets also not forget that this is a hobby, something folks do for fun. Some folks like rocketry strictly for the science involved. Others like the challenge of constructing that perfect masterpiece while others simply want to fly. There's no need to make things more difficult by adding unnecessary requirements.

/soapbox

I have heard that the Nuclear Sledgehammer from Giant Leap is supposed to be a good one for Level 3.

<"I also believe unless you are building some crazy configuration of a rocket, a 3FNC or 4FNC scratch built rocket is not much different than a kit.>"

Well..I don't think you can get too crazy with the configuration, ...if I recall correctly....you cann't do an "odd - roc" for your level 3 attempt.

So...you won't be getting that exotic anyway....

Necromancer said:

Get the Polecat Aerospace 3/4 scale Nike Smoke!!!

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ahansom said:

For my level 3 used a Polecat Aerospace 10" Thumper that I bought from Jack at Whats up Hobbies. All of the parts are well made and the fit was perfect.

Andy

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Got to agree with you two. Polecat has good rugged stuff cheap. LOC also represents a good value for big, cheap 3FNC rockets.

SpartaChris said:

I find statements like this to be absolutely ridiculous. No, it absolutely should NOT be a requirement for L3. There is not a lot of difference between building a kit and scratch building your rocket.

In almost every case in rocketry, scratch building only means that you have access to tools, know how to use those tools and have an area to use those tools. It does not mean you know how to *design* a rocket. Most scratch builders aren't running through calculations to get a specific fin or nose cone profile to achieve a particular performance or flight profile. They are simply making the parts to assemble a rocket. The difference between that and buying a kit is the kit has the parts already made, so you get to skip that step. You still have to assemble the rocket, you still have to plan for the recovery, ejection and motor. You still have to *know* your rocket for your L3 cert.

Click to expand...

Necromancer said:

Again, I agree with SpartaChris. We must be long lost brothers.

I also believe unless you are building some crazy configuration of a rocket, a 3FNC or 4FNC scratch built rocket is not much different than a kit.

In either case, you still need to simulate your model, choose your engine, understand where your Cg / Cp is, build your electronics bay, and understand and use the proper techniques required for an L3 rocket during the build etc... And if with a kit build, you'll still likely be deviating from the instructions by adding glass to the fins, reinforcing certain items, or even making major modifications to it.

As SpartaChris has said, for that type of rocket, the only thing you gain with a kit is the fact you may not have to cut bulkheads yourself etc... However, most scratch builders I know don't do this either - they still buy pre-fabricated bulkheads etc...

Both NAR and TRA do not have rules that require a scratch built rocket for the L3 cert flight, so lets not all think we are ABOVE the law and impose that Skycopp use a scratch built rocket.

Lets let *HIM* make the decision to which works best for him.

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Both of you hit the nail on the head. This is a hobby, and most hobbists are not aerospace engineers. The object of L3 certification is for the flyier to demonstrate the ability to build a L3 rocket properly and launch and recover it safely. How pretty it looks after it's built is an artistic/ craftsmanship issue, not proof of aerospace design and/or construction skills.

Most scratch builts are not optimized designs and many beautiful looking rockets are overbuilt and/or overweight when compared to aerospace industry standards. This is not meant to be a derogatory comment to any scratch builders but in the industry, aerospace engineers design and build built rockets to be as light as possible to maximize payload and performance at minimum cost which can lead to some pretty ugly rockets. Internat competition designs are about as close as the hobby comes to true state-of-the-art engineering design. These rockets are rarely painted because paint adds weight which hurts performance.

Bob

skycopp said:

How high did it go on the M3500?

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I've flown my Comp 5 nine times so far, with 7 of those being M motors. I've flown it up to 14,990 on a 75/7600 load. It's a great kit, and I've been very happy with it. If I crash or lose it, I'd definitely buy another one. It's going up again at RGV on the 7600 load if the weather cooperates.

-Justin

berlinetta said:

I have heard that the Nuclear Sledgehammer from Giant Leap is supposed to be a good one for Level 3.

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____________________________

I couldn't agree more! The Nuclear Sledgehammer is an awesome bird. And its unique design and avionics bay offers a bit more interesting and challenging build than your typical 3 or 4FNC rocket. Loads of fun... but I'm biased.

I attended a Three Oaks launch this year and saw Steely’s Sledgehammer design fly. It was a two-stage M-to-M flight that was absolutely spectacular. I heard a rumor from a Three Oaks attendee that an additional major HPR manufacturer is soon to release another two or three of SteelyEyed’s designs, but they’re still “classified” (I didn't get the details, but an L3 capable kit is likely). Whatever they are, I’m sure they’ll be sweet designs. Similar to my attitude about Shrox’s work, I like every design that I’ve seen from Steely. I hope someone kits his Reaper and Crowbar designs too. Nice work Steely, keep ‘em coming.

laobnoh

laobnoh said:

I attended a Three Oaks launch this year and saw Steely’s Sledgehammer design fly. It was a two-stage M-to-M flight that was absolutely spectacular. I heard a rumor from a Three Oaks attendee that an additional major HPR manufacturer is soon to release another two or three of SteelyEyed’s designs, but they’re still “classified” (I didn't get the details, but an L3 capable kit is likely). Whatever they are, I’m sure they’ll be sweet designs. Similar to my attitude about Shrox’s work, I like every design that I’ve seen from Steely. I hope someone kits his Reaper and Crowbar designs too. Nice work Steely, keep ‘em coming.

laobnoh

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_____________________________

Thanks laobnoh. I'm honored to even be mentioned in the same post as Shrox.

skycopp said:

Well, I'll nearly done with my build in which I'll be flying some L's. I'm already forward thinking about getting that Level 3 and was wondering if anyone has any recommendations for a kit.

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Being a mermber of the L3CC, I feel I'm qualified to answer...

If you prefer to scratch build, then scratch build. If you want a kit, build a kit.
The man said he wants recs for L3 kits, I would recommend any of a number of kits. Jack G with What's Up Hobbies has some really nice stuff. If you regularly fly on a smaller field, with a not-so-high waiver, a Polecat Thumper might be a nice choice. Big, strong kit that won't make the stratosphere. Jack's other kits are excellent, also.
If you're looking for a higher performance bird, then consider the Performance Rocketry kits. The Competitor 4 or 5 kits are excellent L3 birds, as are the Intimidators in the same sizes. Just don't order direct from PR. Go thru a stocking dealer, and you'll be happier.
Another choice to consider might be an RDS kit. They make some very nice L3 size rocket kits. Another choice might be Tim Lehr's Ultimate Wildman. Big bad boy there.
It comes down to considering where it will be flown, and on what motors. If you're flying at a 2 mile field with a 6K waiver, the Comp4 on an M1315 isn't the answer. But if you'll be flying at Black Rock...

James

Necromancer said:

Get the Polecat Aerospace 3/4 scale Nike Smoke!!!

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If I was on that side of the pond, that's what I'd get.

DYI- scratch build, is really the way to go, going for a L3 as a best test of yourself and the knowledge that you have learned to this point.

Your not just proving your knowledge to others, but most important yourself!

You just may design the next WOW rocket, that some one could kit!

here's Mine L3 rocket on EMRR, Called "L3 on a Budget",
https://www.rocketreviews.com/reviews/all/scratch_gravity_kills.shtml

Emrr has alot of great designs listed

WolfStar said:

DYI- scratch build, is really the way to go, going for a L3 as a best test of yourself and the knowledge that you have learned to this point.

Your not just proving your knowledge to others, but most important yourself!

You just may design the next WOW rocket, that some one could kit!

here's Mine L3 rocket on EMRR, Called "L3 on a Budget",
https://www.rocketreviews.com/reviews/all/scratch_gravity_kills.shtml

Emrr has alot of great designs listed

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Proving what knowledge exactly? That you know how to use power tools and rocksim? There is absolutely nothing different between scratch building and building from a kit.

Scratch build if you enjoy making the parts yourself. If you don't, build a kit. There's absolutely NO difference in knowledge gained.