Night Vision

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pr_rocket04

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So, who here plays with night vision? It is, hands down, my favorite toy.

Here is what I put together last week. Two PVS-14 gen 3+ monoculars bolted together to make a binocular with quick detach. The twin intensifier tubes are auto-gated thin-film Omni 7 Pinnacle type with manual gain settings.

In the lower photos is a 300mW 808nm IR pen laser running on AAA batteries which I built. The light is invisible without NV. I have the beam focused to minimal divergence in the photos, but I can also diverge the beam out wider like a torch flashlight. It can easily light up entire barns or houses over a mile away, or put spots on clouds.

2-pvs14850.jpg


pvs28889.jpg


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Very nice. But aren't these things supposed to be hard to get?

You can get them here: https://www.opticsplanet.net/atn-ni...3p-with-itt-internsifier-tube-nvmp60153p.html They come in different battery configurations, and also different tube configurations if you want to go with a cheaper model.

pyrovette20 said:
Now you need to mount it on a rocket for some cool night flights.

That would be very neat, though expensive in a crash! I was thinking the opposite, though. Put the IR laser in the rocket, aimed straight down, then fly the rocket at night with the NV. You could see the laser from 30,000 feet.
 
That would be very neat, though expensive in a crash! I was thinking the opposite, though. Put the IR laser in the rocket, aimed straight down, then fly the rocket at night with the NV. You could see the laser from 30,000 feet.

Absolutely not. Lasers are very hazardous especially at those power levels and IR lasers are ESPECIALLY hazardous since your eye reflex won't close your eyelids if you catch the beam or a reflection.

An IR laser is just as dangerous as a visible laser, and in fact more dangerous due to the reasons stated above.

Doing something like this is both extremely dangerous and also irresponsible.

It can easily light up entire barns or houses over a mile away

Again, something you do NOT want to do. With powerful lasers, comes great responsibility. This is NOT responsible behavior - shining lasers on houses, barns, and especially where lots of people are around. Granted, the power levels are quite attenuated as those distances, but still not something you want to be doing.
 
Absolutely not. Lasers are very hazardous especially at those power levels and IR lasers are ESPECIALLY hazardous since your eye reflex won't close your eyelids if you catch the beam or a reflection.

An IR laser is just as dangerous as a visible laser, and in fact more dangerous due to the reasons stated above.

Doing something like this is both extremely dangerous and also irresponsible.



Again, something you do NOT want to do. With powerful lasers, comes great responsibility. This is NOT responsible behavior - shining lasers on houses, barns. Granted, the power levels are quite attenuated as those distances, but still not something you want to be doing.

You're going to attempt educate me on lasers? Apparently you don't understand light energy, claiming that shining a 300mW IR laser at a house a mile away is irresponsible.

Beam divergence on this IR laser covers about 30+ feet at a mile. Let's do some simple math, shall we?

3.14*15*15 = 706.5 Square Feet covered at 1 mile

300mW/706.5 = 0.42mW/SqFt

Pupil Diameter ~5mm(0.2")

3.14*0.1*0.1 = 0.0314SqIn/144 = 0.00021SqFt

0.42mW*0.00021 = 0.00008mW

So you have a potential of approximately 0.08 of a microwatt of light entering your eye at one mile.

At 1/8 mile (660 feet), you have a beam diameter of approximately 3.75 feet.

3.14*1.875*1.875 = 11 SqFt

706.5/11 = 64

0.08uW*64 = 5.1uW

As you can see, even at 660 feet, you have a mere 5 MICROWATTS of approximate light energy entering the pupil, when shined directly at your eyes. I think you can see where this is going. You can finish the math down to even a few feet if you want, but the point is, you would have to get really close to be getting any amount of thermal energy into the eye. The thermal energy is what destroys the retinas.

I have read countless studies of tests performed by shining lasers of more than 5 milliwatts directly into a test specie's eye, and it took seconds, not fractions of a second, for retinal tissue damage to be measured in rats, rabbits, and the like. So, even if you have the energy to do it, the possibility of the light entering the eye long enough to actually do the damage is next to impossible while it's being waved around by a shaky hand. I would literally have to hold it directly aimed into someone's eye from a few feet, for a few seconds, for it to have a chance at distorting retinal tissue.

And think about it on the back of a rocket! A rocket traveling hundreds of feet per second. Do you really think there is even the remote possibility for the rocket to remain in the EXACT flight trajectory required to pinpoint a laser beam onto the same person's eye for even more than a fraction of a second? The rate it accelerates grows the beam size on the ground out of danger zone in probably 1/5 second. That's before it could even aim out over the crowd watching. I don't think anyone's going to be sitting under the launch pad. When it came down under parachute, it still couldn't do it unless there was zero wind, and the rocket had a zero angle change at all times while dangling on its way down under the chute. That's impossible.

Pilots get flashed by green lasers, which are the most detectable wavelength in the spectrum of the human eye. They are blinded by apparent brightness; they do not suffer from retinal damage when it happens. When there is zero apparent brightness as in an IR laser, the possibility of physical effects out past the thermal damage range are non-existant.

So, I cease to acknowledge any form of danger or irresponsibility by shining an invisible light at this power level at the distances I describe. No one out there is in any form of danger. I have studied this topic myself to ensure this.

I just don't like it when people exaggerate the dangers of something which is really not a threat to anyone.
 
You're going to attempt educate me on lasers? Apparently you don't understand light energy, claiming that shining a 300mW IR laser at a house a mile away is irresponsible.

I just don't like it when people exaggerate the dangers of something which is really not a threat to anyone.

It *is* irresponsible. Numbers don't mean crap here, so quote them all you'd like. Its **** like this that gives the rest of us a bad name. And yes, I have quite a collection of lasers myself including some really high power 1W and 2W DPSS systems from Lambda Technologies. (And yes, thats a true 2W of visible light energy as measured through an IR filter)

EDIT: Plus, its not the long distances i'm worried about at a launch. IR lasers are just downright dangerous, especially at a launch where lots of people are around. With a visible laser, you can "see" that the laser is operating. With an IR laser, you have no idea. Your laser may be inadvertently turned on while carrying your rocket, and anyone walking near you could be getting that laser right in their eyes or whatever and they wouldn't even know it. And being at night where the pupils are fully dilated, its worst of all. With an IR laser, your pupils won't react at all allowing the IR laser to penetrate the eye without the pupil reacting one bit.

If you want to do this on your own in am empty lot, then go for it. But if you are going to be walking around with a rocket and a 300mW IR laser at a night launch with lots of people around, thats just irresponsible. I'm sure the RSO wouldn't allow it.
 
With powerful lasers, comes great responsibility. quote]


Hey that remains me Spiderman is on today!:rotflol:


very cool setup you got there, but now I have to get my IR cam out to see if I'm being watched!:rotflol:
 
...But aren't these things supposed to be hard to get?

Dude,

$160 for a single at any Sam's Wholesale Club store in the country! About the same as the one I humped in the Southeast Asia war games some 40 years ago that I was told cost about $30,000 - and if I dropped it and broke it, I'd be paying back every penny!
 
I wonder what would happen if you were to accidently sweep it across an aircraft with a laser warning sensor onboard, since I assume you are not filing the proper paperwork every time you shine this thing outdoors...
 
You can get them here.....

On sale for 3995.00. About what they are on listed for on some web sites.

I was also asking about availability since the military has first call on any produced.

...$160 for a single at any Sam's Wholesale Club....

Nice discount!

Uhm, that seems to be a big difference in price. Are these the same?
 
I always wondered if you could add a high intensity IR LED to a rocket and use a night vision system to find it after dark.
 
Necromancer said:
It *is* irresponsible. Numbers don't mean crap here, so quote them all you'd like. Its **** like this that gives the rest of us a bad name.

No offense, but I think you need to chill out. Do you always jump out of your seat like this when worrying about the responsibility of others? I have been involved with laser projects for over 6 years, and I am highly aware of the subject and its hazards of both visible and non-visible wavelengths.

And, what **** are you talking about that gives others a bad name? As far as I'm aware, the only **** which has occurred is the assumptive conclusions you have reached in your own mind.

You may note that I never planned on putting a laser on a rocket. I said it would be neat to do. And actually, 808nm light is not complete-IR spectrum. When it is shined at you, you do see a bright red light emitting from the source. It is quite easy to identify when the diode is emitting. At any distance away, the dot is very hard to see with bare eyes, and you don't see a solid beam like that. So I say it is "invisible", because of the dimness when shined away from you. But you could identify where it is shining on the rear of a rocket.

I wonder what would happen if you were to accidently sweep it across an aircraft with a laser warning sensor onboard, since I assume you are not filing the proper paperwork every time you shine this thing outdoors...

Well, I don't shine my laser at airplanes. ;) Most of the time I use it as a torch light, with a widely diverged beam aiming across a field. I just focused it down to a smaller divergence for the photos.

sunward said:
On sale for 3995.00. About what they are on listed for on some web sites.

I was also asking about availability since the military has first call on any produced.

n5wd said:
...$160 for a single at any Sam's Wholesale Club....

Nice discount!

Uhm, that seems to be a big difference in price. Are these the same?

The military uses the auto-gated Pinnacle tube PVS-14s as their primary monocular units, and they use the tubes in their dual-eye NV flight systems such as the ANVIS goggle as well. But, as far as I am aware, most sellers have the units stocked and ready to purchase if you want one.

And no, sorry, but you can't even get relatively close to gen III+ performance from a $160 scope from Sam's. The performance leap over a standard gen III tube is somewhat substantial going to the thin-filmed gen III+, and even they are over $3000 themselves for a PVS-14. To purchase a thin-filmed dual-tube binocular like this is right around $8000, and the purpose built binoculars like the PVS-15 and ANVIS go from about $8500-11,000. They do use the same tubes inside, just different power supply and lens configurations. (I prefer my specific setup, since each monocular can be used individually when detached. One can be used as a weapon mount, for instance.) You surely pay for the technology at hand.

Gen I and II do not come close to a gen III in light amplification. Gain on a gen I is maybe 10,000-15,000, and you would be very lucky to get that for $160. The tubes on gen Is are also known for having poor resolution, and only the center of the image resolves. (Looks like you are looking through a bubble.) Gen II and II+ is around 20,000-30,000 times gain. And gen III and III+ can go as high as roughly 40,000-55,000 times. In the photos, I have the gain setting down and it is pretty dark out. I could crank it up and that scene would look almost too bright because of some ambient street light.

Hospital_Rocket said:
I always wondered if you could add a high intensity IR LED to a rocket and use a night vision system to find it after dark.

Yes. In fact, it would probably be the most useful way of possibly finding it, short of radio tracking. The huge contrast of any available light would make it almost impossible to lose sight of during the entire flight, with them placed on the sides and bottom.
 
I always wondered if you could add a high intensity IR LED to a rocket and use a night vision system to find it after dark.

Thats actually a good idea. But, a visible LED (like a high power Luxeon would probably work just as well and you wouldn't need night vision to see it!)

A 3W Luxeon LED pulsed (with up to several amps peak current), will light the entire field up when it flashes!
 
No offense, but I think you need to chill out. Do you always jump out of your seat like this when worrying about the responsibility of others? I have been involved with laser projects for over 6 years, and I am highly aware of the subject and its hazards of both visible and non-visible wavelengths.

I know it sounds like it, but i'm not trying to be a ****. Just with my experience, i know that lasers can be nasty at night. When not doing rocketry, I am a hardcore astrophotographer (see my website at https://www.danielmccauley.com) and i have been at many astronomy parties at various locations in which i've seen lasers do some serious damage to others - and lasers at much less power than 300mW. (Lasers are used for pointing, scope collimation, etc... in astronomy) I've seen on several occasions individuals having to be taken to the ER due to getting a quick flash of a laser across the field. Hence the reason laser pointers are typically banned at star party events nowadays. (And also the fact an astrophotographer will kick your *** if you shine a laser pointer across his scopes FOV while imaging! :D)
 
I don't think I've seen anything over 15mW used in astronomy. (Not counting false star lasers) Anything over that is seriously overkill. 15mW is only nice because its easier for others to see than 5mW. It's bright enough that I don't see why on earth anyone would use anything else.

I'd say the banning reason has more to do with interrupting imaging than safety, though. At any public star party I've been too (Where people have no expectation of being able to do a lot of deep sky work, at least until after midnight) lasers are in abundance.
 
I don't think I've seen anything over 15mW used in astronomy. (Not counting false star lasers) Anything over that is seriously overkill. 15mW is only nice because its easier for others to see than 5mW. It's bright enough that I don't see why on earth anyone would use anything else.

I'd say the banning reason has more to do with interrupting imaging than safety, though. At any public star party I've been too (Where people have no expectation of being able to do a lot of deep sky work, at least until after midnight) lasers are in abundance.

No, its both. And its common to see green laser (DPSS) pointers up to about 100mW (40mW being pretty common based on their availability)

The ban is based on both imaging and safety.
 
Lasers schmasers. Keep dropping foul language and my laser mouse will pull this thread. Keep it clean fellas.
 
No, its both. And its common to see green laser (DPSS) pointers up to about 100mW (40mW being pretty common based on their availability)

The ban is based on both imaging and safety.
I've never seen anything over 15 at any star party. Anyone lighting up a 100mW pointer at any I was running would be thrown out. There is simply no reason to use that outdoors around people.
 
One of my favorite warning labels:

" WARNING

DO NOT POINT LASER
INTO REMAINING EYE "
 
Night Vision Goggles (NVGs) are cool, but the ones we used to use in the Air Force could potentially make you go blind if you looked at a relatively bright light. We'd use them in the desert to see if anything was sneeing up on us - besides camel spiders and jackels.
 
OSHA require that laser glasses that attenuate by a factor of 10^5 for laser intensities of 10 mW/cm^2 CW be provided for anyone working with lasers.

https://www.osha.gov/SLTC/etools/eyeandface/ppe/laser_safety.html#Lens%20Requirements

The dark adapted eye has a pupil diameter of 7mm or 0.4 cm^2 and will focus to a spot 10 microns in diameter, a concentration factor of ~500,000 optically, so a 10 mw/cm^2 laser beam would be focused to 5 KW/cm^2 spot on the retina which is a very high intensity. The OD 5 glases will reduce this intensity to 50 mW/cm^2 or 1/2 the intensity of sunlight on your skin. Your eye won't be burned.

For comparison, sunlight is 100 mW/cm^2. Staring at the sun will close your pupils down to 2 mm or so, and reduce both total energy admitted to the eye and increase the spot size so the focused intensity is about 1 kW/cm^2 and the adversion time is 0.25 seconds.

An unfocused 300 mW laser can cause eye damage if stared at from a distance of 10s of meters. With a 1 mR divergence, it would not drop to 5 mW/cm^2 until 90 M which is a class 3A limit IIRC. An 808 nm will not cause a flinch reaction like a visible laser will so the eye will not divert from a near IR laser beam, nor will it make your pupils close. Use care.

https://www.laserfx.com/BasicSafety/BasicSafety2.html has some relevant information

Bob
 
I think the biggest issue I have about using laser pointers at night is because all the recent incidents of laser pointers being shined at aircraft. That would be the reason I would hesitate putting a laser in a rocket, because you have no control over where the beam goes.
 
That would be the reason I would hesitate putting a laser in a rocket, because you have no control over where the beam goes.

Not to mention you can't even see the beam. Just think if the switch or connection was bad and the IR laser was inadvertantly turned on while walking to the pad. You could be shining at a whole crowd of people or nearby individuals and not even realize it.
 
It's amazing how a topic about night vision is now your topic about laser safety.

Not to mention you can't even see the beam. Just think if the switch or connection was bad and the IR laser was inadvertantly turned on while walking to the pad. You could be shining at a whole crowd of people or nearby individuals and not even realize it.

Do they teach you to wave firearms around, pointed at peoples' faces at the shooting range, even if the gun is not loaded?

Then why would anyone aim a potential laser hazard around in peoples' faces at a rocket launch? That doesn't make any sense. If you had any idea what you were doing, it can be done safely. For instance, a cap on the end until it was on the launch pad. And again, it emits red light when on. You know when it's emitting.

I don't agree that it is a good thing to do with air traffic in the area, if you want to believe it's going to trigger an ICBM war. But it can easily be done safely with people in the area when pertaining to vision, so long as spectator distances are maintained.
 
Do they teach you to wave firearms around, pointed at peoples' faces at the shooting range, even if the gun is not loaded?

Then why would anyone aim a potential laser hazard around in peoples' faces at a rocket launch? That doesn't make any sense.

Thats a very good question indeed. In fact, the one I keep asking myself over and over again when I see photos of you pointing your high power laser at nearby buildings.
 
Thats a very good question indeed. In fact, the one I keep asking myself over and over again when I see photos of you pointing your high power laser at nearby buildings.

Ok, I give. I have been trying to burn holes in those buildings with my 47 gigawatt death ray. Oh, wait, but I didn't think I took pictures of myself trying to do it! Where did you find the pictures of me lasing those buildings at, I'd like to know? The only one I can find is the one with me shining the top of a tree. Have you been wearing your safety goggles when you play with your lasers? :rotflol:
 
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