NERRF-4 2008 is Official -- June 20, 21, 22 at Pine Island, NY

By the way, I have to say that i had a fantastic time and will be back. Kudos to the organizers!

You're welcome to come up to any of our normal launches where the lines are much shorter...

We have another launch in 2 weeks July 12 & 13.


Sometimes things don't always work when you want them to;
On Sat. one of the workers from the sod farm came to cut the grass (as normal) only to chew up the speaker wires to the PA system & wrapped them firmly around the mover blades.


,

JD

GlennW said:

We were there Saturday for NERRF-4 and it was a great time. I was impressed by how well most things ran and having been to the previous 3 incarnations I could really see how fine tuned this thing is becoming.

Having said that I must second the comment about the low power operations. We got in a grand total of 2 launches the whole day. Would have been 3 but continuity problems with one of the pads prevented that, and after 2 tries just didn't have enough time to wait for a spot for attempt #3. Now don't get me wrong, I'm thrilled that the thing is so popular that there's this much of a crowd and we really come to see the big stuff fly, but there has to be a way the guys in charge can figure this out and ease the frustration. Hopefully this is something that will be looked at for NERRF-5. That's about the only thing I can think of that needs improvement.

Glenn

Click to expand...

Something needs to be done about the electronics. WAY too many mis-fires.

I also agree with the issues with the LPR pads. Twice on Saturday, they started launching the HPR then got to the LPR. They went halfway down the LPR rack, and then stopped to make use of window for an HPR launch on the other side. Rather then return to the LPR, they would finish the HPR on the other side and start loading the original side, continue the other side through its LPR, then do the high power on the original side, and then finally get to the low power. I had rockets sit, without a miss-fire, on the low power rack for over an hour. It was somewhat fustrating when it occurred a second time.
A few pads had bad wires (only 2 strands of wire to the clip lead) that would cause some miss-fires.
BUT - It was a fantastic weekend, great weather - even on Sunday, but especially on Saturday. Thanks to all that helped organize and run NERRF. Also thanks to the vendors, without whom we would have nothing to fly

dgreenapple said:

You've been heard. Now let me see if I got it right:

1. Goal is to have continuous launching (or as close as possible) on Low Power flights

2. Fliers should leave the LCO alone to launch rockets. Talk to the Range Boss. That's his/her job.

3. Rods and Rails should never be aimed at the crowd (although that is specified in a number of NERRF documents, it can't be said enough!).

Maybe the pad managers can make it part of their final check of the range before proceeding to give the LCO the "OK to launch"...

Click to expand...

I couldn't make it this year but I was there last year and my daughter and I got a total of ten flights over two days. All of them 'E' or lower power.

In the end, my daughter just gave up trying to launch anything because she didn't want to wait such a long time. The Low Power pads were loaded and ready probably 5 minutes after the range was open and then we had to wait for the High Power pads to be finished loading.

I think what everyone is saying is that Low Power flights can be taking place while the High Power pads are being loaded. Several racks can be prepared and launched in the time it takes to get the High Power pads ready.

Once the High Power pads are ready, the Low Power launches are suspended while the High Power rockets are launched. Once all the High Power rockets have been launched, the Low Power launches can resume.

This also has the benefit of the High Power fliers not having to wait until they go through the Low Power racks.

Maybe if the low power pads were extended just a bit further from the ditch, people could safely walk past to the HP pads while the lows launched.

Remember that an Estes launch controller is something like 15' of cord, that's all you need to be what they consider "safe".

I wasn't at NERRF so I will preface by saying I don't know the lay of the land..But, at NSL in Orangeburg the LP pads were split..We would launch off one side and the other side could load up..Also, while the LP stuff was going up we were allowed to go to the MP and HP pads to set things up as long as we stayed outside of the taped off perimeter around the LP pads..Worked great, was hardly a wait to get a pad and maybe at most a 10-15 minute wait for your rocket to go into the sky(on LP)..

Wow definitely a lot of good input.

Bottom line

I hope you had more fun than not.
I hope NERRF trying to balance LPR, MPR, and HPR was successful.
I hope you'll be back for more.

The NERRF committee is doing what it can with the equipment and the voluteers that are available.

Nothing is ever perfect.....
But if it were, we probably wouldn't be invited

See ya at the Range.

BobH48 said:

Several racks can be prepared and launched in the time it takes to get the High Power pads ready.

Once the High Power pads are ready, the Low Power launches are suspended while the High Power rockets are launched. Once all the High Power rockets have been launched, the Low Power launches can resume.

This also has the benefit of the High Power fliers not having to wait until they go through the Low Power racks.

Click to expand...

This is exactly how CMASS does it and averages 400 launches in 6 hours, and there is hardly any waiting (on a busy launch there may be a wait on high power pads, but we only have 3 or 4 HPR pads set up). Once they set a record of over 1000 launches!

As I mentioned earlier, it was an outstanding launch. Someone mentioned how much better this was than previous NERRF launches with respect to lines and launching, showing vast improvement, and they are truly correct.

That said, there's always room for more improvement

The goal of having the LPR pads (note I didn't say the E pads... LOL) is a valid one. One thing that could help would be traffic control. Perhaps putting up a strip of CAUTION tape running parallel to the ditch for about 30 feet and direct all HPR fliers (going out or coming in) to stay behind that line. This would keep that foot traffic away from the LPR pads allowing uninterrupted flying.

I also agree with the comment about doing one side then getting interrupted to do a launch on the other side (to make a window) and NOT coming back to where they were on the first side. I understand the need to launch certain flights during the window but there needs to be a protocol to go *back* to where they were to finish up.

Ditto on interruptions to the LCO. Unless it is a dire safety issue, folks need to leave him/her alone. Also, the LCO needs to be reminded to *tell* folks to leave him alone while he is working and either direct them to the range boss or the RSO.

Lastly, the LPR launch equipment (I can't speak for the HPR stuff as I never used it). Does the club have replacement leads and such so that on-field repairs can be made? Several of the leads on these pads were worn and ready to break (several did break) and lead to misfires. I was unable to figure out how to change the leads and didn't see any to swap out in any event. This would be a great tool for the Range Boss between racks.

These are just thoughts off the hip. The small number of them is a good indication of how well everything actually went this past weekend.

Good stuff!
jim

I was the range boss on Saturday morning first shift. The big guy that was sitting down alot. (Sorry about that, I have a back injury.) They didn't have anyone volunteered yet, so I just jumped into it.

Yes, it did get confusing at times. Hell, I was confused at times. But it all worked out.

I think it will get smoother next year. I already have some suggestions as far as how to make the range boss better, which I will email in.

All in all, being range boss for a shift was quite enjoyable. I got to meet and talk to alot of good people.

Bob

Thank you to all those who attended NERRF 4.
Having been there thru NERRFs birth in cobbleskill, NY then help plan NERRF 1,2,3,4 I have to agree it gets better each year.

Thank you to all who have posted comment re range operations, your input is important and is taken into consideration.

Each flying field is unique to some extent, METRA's field has the uniqueness of being located directly under a victor airway. [ A highway in the sky used by commercial air traffic...] This means each time we fly a rocket over 5000 ft we get to make 2 phone calls to advise the FAA [ we call Boston TMU and New York Tracon. ] Both have to agree to the flight. and the flights frequently have windows we need to fly in. Sometimes we are asked to hold and call back in 15 min. on occassion we are told, NO.. too much air traffic. not today.

I understand we had over 50 flights in the pre reg area going over 5K
As one might imagine that kept the phone busy and the LCO bouncing back and forth. My compliments to the fine job they did. 771 flights.

As for the LCO interuptions, some of those were directly related to poor radio communications between the people talking to the FAA and the LCO. We tried this with FRS radios. We need something a bit better. [ in my opinion ] FYI I was some of those interuptions, trying to help us keep the 5K plus flights in the time windows we were assigned.

We recognized and already discussed the radio issue and I expect we will have a solution for NERRF 5.

I fully expect with what we have learned for NERRF 1,2,3,4 and your input NERRF 5 will continue to improve, not just in flight efficiency, stay tuned....

I look forward to seeing you at NERRF 5.....

As Bobby mentioned working with the FAA is time consuming but a pleasure. For future reference I only call the FAA when the expected altitude exceeds 5,500'. There are actually three calls on busy FAA days, NY Center, NY TRACON and Boston TMU. The FAA accommodates our courtesy calls and requests whenever they can, 95%+ of the time. Only under severe conditions like we had on Friday, do they disallow launching. In fact on Friday the conditions were so poor in the late afternoon they requested that we terminate all activity. The thunderstorms pushed the incoming aircraft to unpredictable patterns and altitudes. On Saturday and Sunday they were overwhelmed with the number of requests, so I recommended, and the FAA accepted, that we would cluster the requests..... that led to some of the confusion at the LCO table, because the windows were basically "Now" for multiple rockets. But it did allow for those high altitude launches.

After all was said and done.... flights were many, safe and fun.

Nothings perfect, but NERRF 4 came close.

I've been to every NERRF. NERRF 4 was one of the best operationally. Not perfect, but that's probably not possible. Equipment fails and people can make mistakes. The PA worked great compared to prior years. An FM or AM broadcast would be the only way to improve on NERRF 4.

I had suggested separating Low Power for more launches the last three NERRF's and was told "no". They want all the rockets together and announced by one LCO. Fine, but that will limit the total number of flights. You only launch so many rockets in a day when it is one at a time. I'm fine with that. My kids don't come and we don't do LP at NERRF. Waiting one hour to see your Apha fly on a B motor is not fun for kids.

There seems to be confusion on who is doing what: range boss, pad manager, LCO, etc. People interupting the LCO or someone else. These people change every hour and they are not always in the same spot. Range boss and pad managers do a lot of walking around. How can we spot them? How about orange safety vests with their title on the back. Every one will know who is who. The next guy on the shift just puts the vest on and assumes the duties.

I also suggest an area "roped" off near the RSO, just to the side for spectators. People who just watch can bring a chair and people who are there to see their rocket go up can stand or sit and watch. The crowd gets huge at the field entry. Spectators without rockets, spectators with rockets on the pad, flyers with a rocket trying to get to the pad, photographers, etc. There were times I could not even find a way on or off the field. This works at LDRS and could work well for NERRF. Along the same idea, have roped off pad lanes for waiting. After RSO you get in a line for a rail/rod size. I was at the end of a line of 20 people waiting for pads. I needed a 1/2" rod, but I was no where near the front of the line. No one in front of me had a 1/2" rod rocket. There were many times pads were not used during a launch cycle. These lanes could help with pad managing.

Over all it was a great NERRF. The weather on Saturday was perfect. Every year seems to get better, so NERRF 5 should be great. Thanks to all of those who worked to make NERRF 4 so great. See you next year.

I'll second the orange vests for Pad Managers, LCO, and range boss'. Several times I've wondered who was doing what.

dlappert said:

As Bobby mentioned working with the FAA is time consuming but a pleasure. For future reference I only call the FAA when the expected altitude exceeds 5,500'. There are actually three calls on busy FAA days, NY Center, NY TRACON and Boston TMU. The FAA accommodates our courtesy calls and requests whenever they can, 95%+ of the time. Only under severe conditions like we had on Friday, do they disallow launching. In fact on Friday the conditions were so poor in the late afternoon they requested that we terminate all activity. The thunderstorms pushed the incoming aircraft to unpredictable patterns and altitudes. On Saturday and Sunday they were overwhelmed with the number of requests, so I recommended, and the FAA accepted, that we would cluster the requests..... that led to some of the confusion at the LCO table, because the windows were basically "Now" for multiple rockets. But it did allow for those high altitude launches.

After all was said and done.... flights were many, safe and fun.

Nothings perfect, but NERRF 4 came close.

Click to expand...

Yes, indeede. I had two flights to 10k+ on Saturday, managed to get windows just in time. Thanks, Dennis.

THX, John

skycopp said:

Just noticed that Brian has started uploading photos from NERRF at Print Your Hobby.

https://www.printyourhobby.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=831

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None of my 4 flights were taken! My wife had the camera out of town too. Anyone else taking pictures at NERRF? I'd like a shot of my Harpoon on a K555 or Warloc on the I435.

Well I! for one had one AWESOME! time at This years NERRF, Thank you to ALL who helped out and made it happen! Team work is what its all about. NERRF 5 can only be Bigger and Better! Cant wait!. Here are a few Pic's of My Flights from this years NERRF 4.

The Mad Dog 6 on an L1150R, photo by Patrick McConnell


The Vorlon on an L666SK, photo by Patrick McConnell

Gary, what happened? Why didn't you fly in the Gizmo drag-race?

Gym_Class_Hero said:

Gary, what happened? Why didn't you fly in the Gizmo drag-race?

Click to expand...

LOL I was meaning too but I was preping the Vorlon and got wraped up it that, it seemed like it was taking a while to get all the Gizmos set up and in place so? I flew it 2 weeks eariler on an I229T though, Flew Great! .

Name tags.

(I can't remember names, and like to cheat by looking at... Name Tags.)

Nat

Building the feedback checklist for NERRF-5 --> Here's some repeats and some new ideas...

1. Goal is to have continuous launching (or as close as possible) on Low Power flights -- it's slowly sinking in -- maybe it can really be done.

2. Fliers should leave the LCO alone to launch rockets. Talk to the Range Boss. That's his/her job.

3. Rods and Rails should never be aimed at the crowd (although that is specified in a number of NERRF documents, it can't be said enough!).

4. Pad managers and fliers can make it part of their final check of the range after loading to make sure all the rockets are properly loaded.

5. Orange vests (or something like that) for Range Boss and Pad Managers (GREAT IDEA -- Who works for the DOT and can get some cheap?).

6. Do even more "roping off" and guiding with stakes (and we did a lot more this year than in the past). YES!

7. Heavy pre-launch check (a couple of weeks in advance) of all electronics, clips, wires for HP AND LP, to ensure that everything is working at its best. Maybe, we can also clean and replace clips and wires as needed every morning or at end of each day.

8. Name Tags -- OK

https://www.safetyvests.com/V201_2

And you can get one color logo printing for $3 per vest and $4 for two color.

Ben

For NERRF-5, I suggest all 5.5K and above flights, regardless of impulse, be flown from the away cell and that away cell flights are scheduled for the top of each hour. The FAA call would be placed at 5 minutes to the hour and launch would be as soon as FAA grants permission. If the FAA says wait 15 minutes, the rack would be flown at 10 after.

The METRA away cell controller supports four independent circuits. This would allow up to 32 such flights per day and seems sufficient capacity to have met NERRF-4 demand. If necessary the schedule could be adjusted to flying every 45 minutes or so.

The primary motivation is to isolate the 5.5K flights from interfering with the rhythm of the near field’s split range operation. It also eases the burden on the FAA liaison and away cell managers.

...Fred

FredT said:

For NERRF-5, I suggest all 5.5K and above flights, regardless of impulse, be flown from the away cell and that away cell flights are scheduled for the top of each hour. The FAA call would be placed at 5 minutes to the hour and launch would be as soon as FAA grants permission. If the FAA says wait 15 minutes, the rack would be flown at 10 after.

The METRA away cell controller supports four independent circuits. This would allow up to 32 such flights per day and seems sufficient capacity to have met NERRF-4 demand. If necessary the schedule could be adjusted to flying every 45 minutes or so.

The primary motivation is to isolate the 5.5K flights from interfering with the rhythm of the near field’s split range operation. It also eases the burden on the FAA liaison and away cell managers.

...Fred

Click to expand...

That makes alot of sense. Maybe even work with the FAA and tell them you would like a window of 15 minutes starting at the top of the hour till 15 after. Maybe traffic would be low enough that you can have that window for multiple times.

Ben

dgreenapple said:

Building the feedback checklist for NERRF-5 --> Here's some repeats and some new ideas...

7. Heavy pre-launch check (a couple of weeks in advance) of all electronics, clips, wires for HP AND LP, to ensure that everything is working at its best. Maybe, we can also clean and replace clips and wires as needed every morning or at end of each day.

Click to expand...

A good list to improve an already great event.

While the items listed are excellent, I do not believe that #7 fully addresses the fundamental root causes of the accidental firing of four high impulse rockets.

The orange pads had been working properly until the Gizmo drag race appears to have fused the relay closed. Pre-NERRF system checks would not have changed this.

The solution to that occurrence has to include a careful analysis of potential failure modes of launch system electronics, and to use systems that:

> Use solid state relays and / or have relay failure alarms
> can not fire all pads due to a single relay failure
> does not cycle the relays when the pads are powered on

I was the pad manager who safed the orange pads, then as the last rocketeer walked away armed the pads - and four high power rockets launched. Fortunately, no one was hurt, but this was a close call.

I respectfully urge the NERRF team to take a close look at additional safeguards that can be incorporated into launch system electronics.

In my own actions, I seem to have an opportunity to learn from each HP launch, to do things more wisely and safely.

I thank and commend the NERRF team for putting on a great event, that keeps getting better each year, and for inviting suggestions for further improvements.

boris katan said:

A good list to improve an aready great event.

While the items listed are excellent, I do not believe that #7 fully addresses the fundamental root causes of the accidental firing of four high impulse rockets.

The orange pads had been working properly until the Gizmo drag race appears to have fused the relay closed. Pre-NERRF system checks would not have changed this.

The solution to that occurence has to include a careful analysis of potential failure modes of launch system electronics, and to use systems that:

> Use solid state relays and / or have relay failure alarms
> can

Click to expand...

You could actually wire a buzzer onto the relay that only sounds when the relay is closed, IE a rocket is launched. It would be irrelivent when they pushed the button just a small buzz. But if he stopped launching and hear a buzzing sound they know the relay is welded closed.

Ben

FredT said:

For NERRF-5, I suggest all 5.5K and above flights, regardless of impulse, be flown from the away cell and that away cell flights are scheduled for the top of each hour.

Click to expand...

A neat idea however I would like to add a slight variation. Have a bank of pads reserved for the high altitude sub-m flights. Perhaps in combination with a dedicated hybrid cell (which seemed to work very well). I suggest this as it would allow for standard rails and, horrors, a rod or two. Those pad configurations are not common at the away cell.

I do have a question for those that espouse a separate, continuously available, low power facility. One concern that has been raised was that people loading LPR might not be paying attention to the flights on HPR and vice versa. The CMASS model is good, however I am not convinced it is the way to ensure safety in this situation.

Hospital_Rocket said:

A neat idea however I would like to add a slight variation. Have a bank of pads reserved for the high altitude sub-m flights. Perhaps in combination with a dedicated hybrid cell (which seemed to work very well). I suggest this as it would allow for standard rails and, horrors, a rod or two. Those pad configurations are not common at the away cell.

I do have a question for those that espouse a separate, continuously available, low power facility. One concern that has been raised was that people loading LPR might not be paying attention to the flights on HPR and vice versa. The CMASS model is good, however I am not convinced it is the way to ensure safety in this situation.

Click to expand...

I think it can work. Fliers would have to know (put it in writing and make the statement each morning during the flight talk) that everyone on the launch field (active or inactive) needs to stop what they are doing and watch the launch.

Fliers on the LPR pad would be expected to pause and watch. Those who don't can/should be pinged by others at the LPR pad with them. The LCO can hold the launch till they *are* watching. You won't get many folks ignoring this for long before others make it clear that it is a requirement...

I don't believe that this pause will not have that great an impact on the LPR racks.

Hospital_Rocket said:

I do have a question for those that espouse a separate, continuously available, low power facility. One concern that has been raised was that people loading LPR might not be paying attention to the flights on HPR and vice versa. The CMASS model is good, however I am not convinced it is the way to ensure safety in this situation.

Click to expand...

It's sort of a moot point because the reason CMASS wasn't there this year had nothing to do with the NERRF leadership not going along with the way we wanted to set up the model rocket pads but I'll toss this out there for your consideration.

We don't fly model rockets and high power rockets at the same time at CMASS launches. We fly one rocket at a time (except for drag races). Since we fly more low and mid power rockets than high power we intersperse the high power flights within the others. The low power pads are in a circle so that we can load and fire continuosly. One of the plans I proposed last year was that we'd set up the low power range to constantly load and fire but we'd be launching in between the high power flights especially during the change between sides of the high power range. I was told that the plan was not acceptable and in the end I went along with what the NERRF leadership wanted to do. I doubt that our contribution made things run better than the year before or the year after.