Motor Spitters

I'm a little divided about letting people try to catch the LPRs.

For old farts like me, it definately is a no-no. If I trip and fall while running I'll be laid up a week.

For the young kids it sure is a lot of fun and tripping and falling is no big thing for them. Most of them are like the Bumble, as Yukon Cornelius say, "They bounce!"

For the rocket, it can be an iffy thing. I've seen several that were not caught by the person running after them, but did fall under the running feet and end up a little flatter then they started out as.

Handeman said:

For the young kids it sure is a lot of fun and tripping and falling is no big thing for them. Most of them are like the Bumble, as Yukon Cornelius say, "They bounce!"

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Please understand that my objection to encouraging kids to chase rockets is not because of the potential of falling or tripping. I'm afraid of what would happen if they are running after a rocket and get hit by another rocket coming in ballistic or, out of habit, they run after a rocket that is coming in ballistic. Either case could result in serious injury.

-- Roger

SecretSquirrel said:

The anal retention factor on this is getting cranked a little too high for my tastes.

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than try stepping away every so often, jeese... we always get your point nomatter how many time it takes!

we don't allow catching rockets at our field as the rockets are launched beyond the range line and dashing across the range line after your rocket would make you look kinda silly and stop the launch.

we also don't want the kids who like to catch rockets at the local ballpark to think it's ok to run after a rocket at the launchfield, for safety reasons. you don't cross the range line.

now if a rocket drifts beyond the launch area or back across the range line and someone can catch it without running into a tree not much is said.

I caught a saucer that drifted back I just stuck out my hand and caught it , no one complained. we just want the kids at our launches to know it's not ok to cross the range line by simply saying "no catching/chasing rockets" , they understand that better than "don't cross the range line while the range is closed for launching"

we use a rack system of launching, the rockets are racked up , launched than the range is clear for retrieving and re-racking.
if you suddenly ran after your rocket , you would be somewhere out on the live range surounded by quite a few rather large and beeping rockets.and every one else staring back at you and not smiling or cheering you on either
so there are times where it is not a good idea.

understand the differences

same with spitting motors we don't preferr it because we fly from a sod farm and people don't like to find rocket motors in their sod, and neither does the owner of the field , it happens but we try to keep it to a minimum atleast attach a streamer so it can be found. we don't want the owner finding too many motors and all the usual cato debris, we preferr that people keep a close eye on their motor spitters

stymye said:

than try stepping away every so often, jeese... we get your point!

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Yeah, like I'm the only one making a point here. Thanks for being insulting about it. I would have respected your point a little more if you had told everyone to back off.

It's interesting how people can come on here and tell me I'm doing something terribly wrong without actually witnessing what is going on. I run the launches and at least I'm there to know, the rest of you are basing your opinions on speculation.

don , I understand that at some launches things are different , I just hope you understand that too eventualy. there is a reason we don't allow it and some launches are better suited for catching rockets from what I gather. but you get on a tangent sometimes and don't seem to respect others opinions either, you just want to make your point regardless.

I did not acuse you of doing something wrong just showing a situation where catching rockets and spitting motors are not ideal.

atleast I got your attention and now I must don my bubblewrap

I fail to see that I'm any more on a tangent than some others here.

What I do see is the promotion of a blanket rule. We can't allow this at all. I've already made the point that others can do things the way they want but it didn't seem good enough.

I think I respected the opinions of others by stating they should do what they think is best when they are in charge, sorry you couldn't see that. I think you have things backwards, I'm not saying allow this at all launches. I'm being told it shouldn't be allowed at any launches.

So here's my offer, come to one of our Frisco launches and point out to me exactly what the problem is. Look at the field, look at the range setup and look at the launch operation and tell me exactly, no speculation.

But maybe the best solution is that I stop reading this forum.

Boy, some of yall must have some really crappy fields to fly on if you are worried about hitting post, trees, shrubs, and holes while running for a rocket.

DARS flys on 70 acres of land that is 95% cleared. What is not clear is a group of trees. If the wind is blowing towards the trees then they are a LONG way away from where we set up. If the wind is the other direction then they are behind us. It's mowed and managed at least once a month (normally a week before our launch) by the city parks department.

When Doug runs for a rocket he has a general idea of the direction it's going. He is standing out in the field waiting for his rocket to launch. It launches, and then he runs for it after the chute is out. It's quite a site to see and we do cheer him on.

99% of the time this is at a model rocket launch and not at a HPR event. Even if it was at a HPR event we would not be launching rockets HPR rockets while anyone is out in the range. Give us more credit than that.


As for spitting motors... Go for it... There is no rule or policy saying you can't. I have been going to model rocket launches here in Dallas for about 10 years now. Even longer in other places if you count flying rockets as a youth. I have yet to see anyone get hit by a spit motor. And I don't think that the weight of an expended motor would be much of a problem.

Then agan... Maybe someone could be looking up and get hit in the eye and go blind... But that takes us back to the picture that Don posted.

Tim

Actually, just last weekend, a little kid got hit by a spit motor at a CRASH launch (a little crying, but no lasting damage). First time I've ever seen that happen.

Our launches use the rack method. Everyone is behind the LCO during launches then free to recover once the rack is clear. Noone is permitted out on the field until the LCO annouces, "The pads are safe." We like everyone to be heads up during the launches. For a club that mainly deals in high power, it's a good practice to be in. I've seen too many come in ballistic. It goes without saying noone runs out and catches a 30-50 lb rocket anyway. If it means I or a child can't run out and catch our LPR birds, then so be it. Not saying your way or anyone else running launches that way is wrong, just relaying how it's done at MDRA. Been to one NARHAM launch and if IRC, I believe they wait until the rack is clear too.

I don't feel the least bit unsafe when a BP motor casing is ejected. I've flown several gliders that "spit" and have yet to see a casing come anywhere near where I was standing, even when using my Porta Pad. Perhaps just luck, but I don't think an empty casing is too dangerous anyway....unless you were say within 50 ft. of the rocket when it's being ejected. I think most of us are launching our rockets up at LEAST twice that distance.

I also dissagree with the blanket rule. If the rso allows running after rockets thats his rule I'm cool with that , if I go to your field I wouldn't complain if thats the way things are there and it has been determind safe practice , but if you came to our field and saw our setup and how everything spaced out you would see a different situation.
I'm sure you wouldn't want to chase your rocket it would most likely stop the launch.it's happened more than once.

now we do allow people to set up rockets while others are launching because the different power level pads are spread out the safe distance, so while model rockets are launching , people can be out setting up their high power and sometimes mid power rockets or vice versa.
as long as everyone is paying attention things go smoothly.

if the turnout is really small(rare) without alot of small children running about than it's a little more freestyle and rockerts are launched misfire alley style or more like a ballpark atmosphere, and chasing is much more safe, but generaly that doesn't happen often

cjl said:

Actually, just last weekend, a little kid got hit by a spit motor at a CRASH launch (a little crying, but no lasting damage). First time I've ever seen that happen.

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I think the heat from expended casing is more likely to get my attention than the actual impact. Those casings can stay hot for a little while!

I was hit in the forearm by an E15 casing popped out of my own rocket. It left a nice circular ring due to the impact and/or the heat. It merely stung momentarily but the bump lasted longer. I wuz branded

In a further coinkydink, the chute deployed despite losing the motor, and it landed across my rangebox.

rstaff3 said:

I was hit in the forearm by an E15 casing popped out of my own rocket. It left a nice circular ring due to the impact and/or the heat. It merely stung momentarily but the bump lasted longer. I wuz branded

In a further coinkydink, the chute deployed despite losing the motor, and it landed across my rangebox.

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Your own version of Close Proxmity Recovery... I like it. :lol:

foose4string said:

Our launches use the rack method. Everyone is behind the LCO during launches then free to recover once the rack is clear. Noone is permitted out on the field until the LCO annouces, "The pads are safe." We like everyone to be heads up during the launches. For a club that mainly deals in high power, it's a good practice to be in. I've seen too many come in ballistic.

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Thats close to what we have at a model rocket launch. We only have 6 pads set up and one LMR pad. Everyone stays at least 30' from the rockets and the pads during launch. However, if it's just a model rocket launch and people out in the field recovering rockets and watching what is going on then we go ahead and launch.

Myself... With some of the guys I have flown with... I am more worried about the 16 pound bowling ball being ejected.

I'll admit,I've had a few I didn't have to chase, more like run the other way!

RocketSapp said:

Boy, some of yall must have some really crappy fields to fly on if you are worried about hitting post, trees, shrubs, and holes while running for a rocket.

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You are absolutely correct. We are not blessed with perfect rocket range terrain around here by any means. We have to use what we have, or, more importantly, what we are allowed to have access to. And I haven't even mentioned the drainage ditches, the barbed wire or the electrified fences, either.

Mark \\.

P.S. Oh yeah, or the neighboring landowners with shotguns.

I do not see any problems with spitting engines on rockets that are designed to do so. I try to keep the engines in the clusters though (it is easy to dodge one casing, not so easy to dodge seven of them)
As for chasing rockets we discourage it for the following reasons. The first one is the danger of tripping on the various launch wires and equipment spaced about the range. The second reason is that kids will try to catch everyones rocket and often miss and step on them instead! :cry:

SecretSquirrel said:

I think I respected the opinions of others ...

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Please go back and look at your replies to me and see if you were respectful or not. I explained my reasons for believing that children should not be encouraged to catch rockets. You responded with ad hominem attacks (suggesting I was against having fun and "anal rententive") and a non sequitur ("bubble wrap").

I think spectators and rocketeers not directly involved in the current launches should remain behind the LCO table. The range should be set up so that the LCO table is perpendicular to a line from "upwind" to "downwind" as suggested in the "Safely into the 21st Century" document. No one should be in the "upwind" area of the range when a rocket is launched because that's the area where a rocket coming in ballistic is likely to land. I don't think children should be encouraged to catch rockets because they should be attentive to ongoing launches, they might run after a rocket that's coming in ballistic, or they might run into areas of the range they aren't supposed to be in.

Nothing I've said implies that I'm against having fun. Nothing I've said contradicts our safety codes or any of the recommendations in the other safety documents I've read at nar.org. Nothing I've said deserves ridicule. if you disagree with anything I've said, fine. Please state your reasons why. But don't imply that I've said anything I didn't say. Don't make personal attacks. And don't try to ridicule my opinions by making absurd extrapolations.

This will be my last message on the topic. I hope I've summarized my thoughts well enough that they won't be misinterpreted. I don't like confrontation and I apologize if I've sounded confrontational. It wasn't my intent. But, I get frustrated when things I say are misintepreted or ridiculed , or when I find it difficult to explain my thoughts.

-- Roger

You had to quote me out of context to make your point but I'll try to explain, anal retentive was in reference to you getting bent out of shape over a light hearted comment then trying to impose your rules on others.

Bubble wrap was in response to your rather interesting comment which you have now deleted.

Respect is a two way street. I'm not telling you how to do things, just the opposite. You don't seem content to do your thing and let others do theirs. You insist on pushing your views off on me based on nothing but a notion you have of our launches. You have this picture of carnage in your mind's eye and you just won't let go of it. You just won't accept that we're running a safe launch. You have no idea how we do things, you're just making up a rule and insisting I follow it. But based on other comments it seems that you're entitled to your view but I can only have mine if I want to be insulted for not agreeing with you.

I suggest you have two remedies. Change the safety code or move to Dallas, join DARS and become president. Then you can run our launches the way you want.

Micromeister said:

But even in competition events its NOT a safety issue, Its a competition issue, as Greg mentioned added as small streamer to the casing makes spitting casings in competition perfectly legal as well

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Then it must be considered a safety issue. If not, why differentiate between using a streamer or not? Having a streamer isn't going to make a difference one way or the other as far as the competition is concerned.

I'm planning to go to a rocket launch this weekend where there will be a RG/BG competition and was planning to take my Space Plane as well as several other models but it sounds like the SP won't be allowed unless I rig some sort of streamer.



Mike

I feel better now
https://www.rocketryforum.com/showpost.php?p=295386&postcount=37

SecretSquirrel said:

move to Dallas, join DARS and become president. Then you can run our launches the way you want.

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Bite your tounge!!!! We have enough members just like him who want rules, rules, rules... If they don't get it their way then they cause trouble for the ramaining 95% of the members. How about we just send our usual suspects over to his club and we can really start to have some GREAT launches. (and then watch his club wither and die like DARS was doing before)

Keep in mind one minor (although tangential) issue there is the specific verniage in the HPR safety code prohibiting catching a falling rocket. Given the increased weight and the possibility of unfired ejection charges this makes sense. We take the precaution that nobody recovers forward of the flight line until the range is declared safe and actively discourage catching any rocket. I mean it is only gonna fall another 5-6 feet, so what's the hurry? Also as a range officer, I am not crazy about folks running around looking up at their descending rocket instead of paying attention to the active range.

My $0.02 is with Don and Jim Flis. Unless your field has mitigating circumstances, catching a rocket under chute is no big deal. I think you'll find with a little research that the incident ratio of ER visits to participants in a given activity will show you that letting your kid play soccer is far more likely to get them injured than letting them sit under a LPR rocket under chute.

KermieD said:

My $0.02 is with Don and Jim Flis. Unless your field has mitigating circumstances, catching a rocket under chute is no big deal. I think you'll find with a little research that the incident ratio of ER visits to participants in a given activity will show you that letting your kid play soccer is far more likely to get them injured than letting them sit under a LPR rocket under chute.

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Lets BAN soccer!!! (honestly, this would benefit Rocketry A LOT)

My 2c is for small rockets the act of catching them itself is fine IF the kid is the owner or has permission. The problem is that if little kids are allowed to do it in one case, many either don't understand when not to and/or don't pay attention to what they are doing. I personally have had a little kid watching a rocket run right over my 'camp', stomping the rockets as they went. I've also seen them run into the launch area (more commonly someone yells and the depth of the incursion is small). Unfortunately, my camp is not as well guarded as I generally am alone. Rocket damage is also an issue even if the rocket is not caught, but I generally would rather have the help and take my chances. With bigger rockets I think the problems are understood.

Off Topic -- I believe I read somewhere that injuries in organized youth soccer were much higher than tackle football.

My rule is, don't catch rockets on the way down because you may damage the rocket. Stop running prior to getting to rocket so it doesn't get damaged by excited kids. Only one child is appointed to touch or carry the rocket back to avoid damage from kids pulling on two different ends.

Getting hurt by a falling rocket is the least of my kids or their friends worries when it comes to not listening to "The All Knowing".

heada said:

Lets BAN soccer!!! (honestly, this would benefit Rocketry A LOT)

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LOL true that The wost problem I've seen are those people who throw frisbee like objects at set spots. I forget the name of the activity. We often had to stnd down for them and they weren't as careful with who was around as we were.

Oh, yeah, a lot more kids are hurt doing that that rocketry, even per participant.

Frisbee Golf. The park by my GF's is big for frisbee golf. These guys take it way too seriously but are generally cool with sharing the park with us and the many RC flyers that frequent the facility. One fella yesterday showed me one of the frisbees they use. This is not your average disc you throw around at the park. these things have metal or epoxy rings around the outside and weigh atleast a pound if not more. I was told that they have seen a dogs head split open because it's owner did not keep it on a leash and decided to catch the wrong frisbee as well as easily cause a concussion or head injury if hit with one. I'd take a falling LPR rocket or 18mm motor casing any day of the week, as long as it isn't coming in ballistic that is.