Estes Patriot - MPR Kit Bash

Yes, this is a build thread and as the title suggest, it is a kit bash of the 18mm Estes Patriot to a 24mm MPR.

It was my birthday this week and last week I had a 50% off coupon for Micheal, Friday only. I got myself the Estes Patriot and a piece of 3mm plywood for my wife to give me on my birthday.

Yesterday I got started. In typical TRF fashion, I overbuilt the heck out of it. I have a Stormcaster that I paper laminated the balsa fins and filed the forward end of the motor hook. It's flown on an F24 quite well.

For the patriot, I desided to do things diffently. This will be my first zipperless rocket, although I've never had a zipper on any of my rockets so far.

Enough of the text, on to the pics.




First if the required pic of the kit and the parts laid out.





and the parts that were in the small bag.




I'm not going to go over all the "per instructions" assembly or finishing. There's plenty of threads that cover all of that. Here I'll just cover the kit bashing I did.

First was new CRs for the 24mm MMT. I used a tube that was part of the packaging in a 29/40-120 reload. It was a perfect fit for a 24mm BP and my 24/40 casing.

I cut out two pieces of the 3mm ply and taped them together with double sided tape. I put the two between 2 peices of scrap wood and gave them a good squeeze in the vise to make sure the tape didn't let loose. I then used the 1" forstner bit to drill the center hole. Next, I used the card the 18mm CRs came out of to draw the outer dimensions of the CR. The white tube is what I'm using for a MMT.



I built a small box and topped it with plywood to turn my drill press into a rotary sander. It's hard to see, but the shop vac plugs into the right side of the box. No dust. Had the CRs shaped in a few minutes.



Next was the baffle. I've just started using baffles and I thought this would be a perfect place for one. The patriot comes with three body tubes and two coupler. This was perfect for making a baffle and a zipperless design.

I used the same double sided tape/drill/sand techniques to make the baffle parts as I did the CRs



To keep hot particals from getting through the baffle, I used the same technique my son's Areotech Mustang used, stainless steel wool. I my case I bought a two pack of Stainless Steel Scrubbers at the Dollar Store.



I also used some Kevlar that was tied to the aft baffle end and epoxied to the inside of the coupler. Add the SST wool and notch the forward end and glue it in place.

Had to make a second post. Ran into the 10 image limit.


Next was the fins. I use one of the laser cut fins from the kit as a pattern and cut four fins from the 3mm ply that also had the tabs for TTW.



Here's a shot of all the custom parts I made for this kit. As you can see, the MMT only has one CR glued to it. I had to grind one of the flats on a couple of fine threaded nuts so they would fit on the back to the aft CR. This were tightened down with two screws and glued to the CR with JB-Weld. The two screws will be used to handle the aft CR during assembly and of course, for positive motor retention.



Next it was time to cut the slots in the lower piece of BT. I used a peice of dowel as a mandrel while cutting. Actually I think this was a peice of clothing rod from a closet. I've fond that the closer you can get the dowel to the ID of the tube you're cutting, the better. A new sharp blade is also a must.



And finally, where I am right now. The fin can. I'm letting the glue and fillets dry. The aft CR was just slid on the MMT while the forward CR was glued into the BT. Once it was dried enough, the aft CR was pulled back out by the two retaining screws and the fins glued in place. There will be fillets from fin to BT (inside and outside) and fin to MMT before the Aft CR get glued in place.



That's pretty much it. The Baffle will get glued into the fin can BT. The nose cone attached to the upper two BTs and the shock cord between the two halfs.

As I said, it is way over built and when it gets to it's final assembly, I'll figure out just how much nose weight will be required for the heaviest motor. If the BT could handle it, I know the MMT and fins would probably handle an H or I motor. Now if they only made those in 24mm so I could test the BT.

Very neat; thanks for sharing. I've stockpiled a few Patriot kits as from what I've read here it is a very adaptable design.

This is my first Patriot, but I may get another.

As I said earlier, this one is way over built. I haven't gotten to the point of adding nose weight yet, but I'm sure I'll need quite a bit.

If you're going to kit bash to 24mm, you might want to just do a paper laminate over the balsa fins and do a TTW or even just some rivets when mounting them to the BT. I think that would be quite enough to fly it on E and F reloads up the F39s

Of course this overbuild bird of mine won't fly quite as high or drift as far and can take a smaller chute on those breezy days.

Let us know what you do with yours.

Isn't a kit bash taking a kit and building an entirely different rocket? This is just a modification. Nevertheless, the way you've built it, you could use a 24mm casing and get some really nice flights with an E18 or and F12. Nicely done. You probably won't need as much nose weight as you think, if any.

kelltym88 said:

Isn't a kit bash taking a kit and building an entirely different rocket? This is just a modification. Nevertheless, the way you've built it, you could use a 24mm casing and get some really nice flights with an E18 or and F12. Nicely done. You probably won't need as much nose weight as you think, if any.

Click to expand...

Ya I guess it just a mod, but hey, what's in a name?

Actually I'm thinking more along the lines of E28, F24 or F39. It should be a real neck snapper with the F39. The F12 does sound interesting though with the black smoke.

Nice! I should get another one and mod it for 24mm to. I have one for 18mm RMS right now. Only problem is that the motor sits flush with the bottom of the body tube. Even though it is flush, the fins and body tube get a little blackened. The blackening happened on some of it's first flights with B's and C's. I'm afraid to see what'll happen with AP. I hope it doesn't turn the fins to ash.

How high does your's sim to with all the mods?

Handeman said:

Ya I guess it just a mod, but hey, what's in a name?

Actually I'm thinking more along the lines of E28, F24 or F39. It should be a real neck snapper with the F39. The F12 does sound interesting though with the black smoke.

Click to expand...

I was thinking F12 for a nice slow lift off with a 3.5 second burn. Of course an F39 would be nice too.

I did this mod myself a few years ago and I really enjoy the outcome. This kit is underpowered from the factory. When other fliers fly theirs that are built stock it is almost a heads up flight unless it is on a C6. It really should have been 24mm to begin with. Especially since Estes released the C11. Good flight on that motor. I have flown mine on D12s, E30s, E18s, E28s, F12s so far. Also one E9 that rodwhipped so bad that the only way we found it was to follow a GPS bearing through the trees into an adjoining field. I also have an F21 waiting for it but I think I will have to put larger lugs on it before I do that. The stock 1/8" rod is much too flimsy on anything other than D12s or E reloads. I replaced the stock chute with a crepe paper streamer which brings it down rather fast but not too fast. When I first built it I pretty much did not know what I was doing so the first few landings popped off a fin. After sanding the tube and reattaching them and using fillets I haven't had a problem since. I also just used some fiberboard centering rings that I got from somebody I can't remember. I have a couple of nuts in epoxy in the tip for noseweight, I am not sure even how much it weighs.

Hope this helps anyone interested in doing this mod.

jj94 said:

Nice! I should get another one and mod it for 24mm to. I have one for 18mm RMS right now. Only problem is that the motor sits flush with the bottom of the body tube. Even though it is flush, the fins and body tube get a little blackened. The blackening happened on some of it's first flights with B's and C's. I'm afraid to see what'll happen with AP. I hope it doesn't turn the fins to ash.

How high does your's sim to with all the mods?

Click to expand...

I haven't run a sim on it yet. I haven't gotten the nose weight in it yet to get a total weight. I suspect the F24 should get it about 1500 ft but that's just a guess at this point.

F21's, man I love those motors. Talk about a neck snapper. Well, I'm sure I speak for everyone else, can't wait for launch pics.

kelltym88 said:

I was thinking F12 for a nice slow lift off with a 3.5 second burn. Of course an F39 would be nice too.

Click to expand...

F12 would be spectacular.

Handeman said:

I haven't run a sim on it yet. I haven't gotten the nose weight in it yet to get a total weight. I suspect the F24 should get it about 1500 ft but that's just a guess at this point.

Click to expand...

The Patriot sims out to about 2600-2700 feet on an F24. It goes to about 1500 feet on only an AP D. I ran the sim on the Rocksim file for my Patriot, the 18mm one. With all of your mods, I'd expect about 2400-2500 feet. Here's the Rocksim file.

Oh yeah, and I modified the fins to make it look like the Patriot in the Estes catalog. The fins come as a simple clipped delta, but I cut off a small section in the front of the fin.

View attachment Patriot.rkt

I re-designed my Estes Patriot last week for 24mm also.

Photo of it finished here: https://dmrimaging.smugmug.com/gallery/4641701_Cdphg#274030880

I needed to get a GWiz HCX altimeter into it for some testing, so I re-arranged the tubing, and put the yellow tube in the middle, and made a little bulkplate at the aft end of the yellow tube. Nosecone is just friction fit in - as it only is a payload cap. Chute and shock cord are just above the motor in the lower section. I should probably take some other pictures of it to show the design. I can also fit a BoosterVision wireless cam & 9V battery in it - got one video of the field with lots of spinning...

Altimeter shows about 750' on the E9-8 BP Estes motor.

Dave

jj94 said:

The Patriot sims out to about 2600-2700 feet on an F24. It goes to about 1500 feet on only an AP D. I ran the sim on the Rocksim file for my Patriot, the 18mm one. With all of your mods, I'd expect about 2400-2500 feet. Here's the Rocksim file.

Oh yeah, and I modified the fins to make it look like the Patriot in the Estes catalog. The fins come as a simple clipped delta, but I cut off a small section in the front of the fin.

Click to expand...

I don't have rocksim so I can't use the file. except in Wrasp32.

Edit: I tried the rocksim in Wrasp32 with a mass of 8 oz. - 1573ft and 6 oz. 1694ft, both on a F24.

Try adding about six ounces to the patriot and sim it again. Let me know how that turns out.

fokkerdmr said:

I.....
I needed to get a GWiz HCX altimeter into it for some testing, so I re-arranged the tubing, and put the yellow tube in the middle, and made a little bulkplate at the aft end of the yellow tube. Nosecone is just friction fit in - as it only is a payload cap. Chute and shock cord are just above the motor in the lower section. I should probably take some other pictures of it to show the design. I can also fit a BoosterVision wireless cam & 9V battery in it - got one video of the field with lots of spinning...

Altimeter shows about 750' on the E9-8 BP Estes motor.

Dave

Click to expand...

Definately post some pics of the build. I would love to see how you fit all that into a Patriot.

Handeman said:

I don't have rocksim so I can't use the file. except in Wrasp32.

Edit: I tried the rocksim in Wrasp32 with a mass of 8 oz. - 1573ft and 6 oz. 1694ft, both on a F24.

Try adding about six ounces to the patriot and sim it again. Let me know how that turns out.

Click to expand...

All of the extra mods you added on bring up the weight to about 6-8 ounces?

Now that you ask, I actually put it on the scale and it wasn't as bad as I thought. The fin can is only about 1.5 oz., I would have guess at least 3 from the weight while holding it.

Anyway, I estimate the final weight about 3.8 to 4 oz, depending on laundry and paint. The F12 should get it up to about 1,925 and the F24 about 2,000 ft. Even a BT E9 should get it up to 1,400.

Guess I'll have to be a watch the wind speed a little closer if I want it back.

Handeman said:

Now that you ask, I actually put it on the scale and it wasn't as bad as I thought. The fin can is only about 1.5 oz., I would have guess at least 3 from the weight while holding it.

Anyway, I estimate the final weight about 3.8 to 4 oz, depending on laundry and paint. The F12 should get it up to about 2,200 and the F24 about 2,325 ft. Even a BT E9 should get it up to 1,400.

Guess I'll have to be a watch the wind speed a little closer if I want it back.

Click to expand...

Well, why not just use AP E's instead? They'll get it up to respectable altitudes for a rocket of this size, but not too high that you won't get it back.

But if it's calm...go all out!

Well, I simmed a lot of motors and it looks like going from C11 to F39 I can pick an altitude from 400 ft. to 2000 ft. About the only 24mm APCP I don't think I should use is the D9W. It has no initial thurst spike and only gets up to 36ft/sec on a 4' rod. Not counting APCP SU motors, that still leaves 9 BP and reloads to fly in this thing.

I think this is going to be one fun rocket!

Handeman said:

Well, I simmed a lot of motors and it looks like going from C11 to F39 I can pick an altitude from 400 ft. to 2000 ft. About the only 24mm APCP I don't think I should use is the D9W. It has no initial thurst spike and only gets up to 36ft/sec on a 4' rod. Not counting APCP SU motors, that still leaves 9 BP and reloads to fly in this thing.

I think this is going to be one fun rocket!

Click to expand...

A D9 should be just fine for it. I flew mine on an A8 before and it was perfectly stable. It was flying in 15-20 mph winds, so I have no worries of it leaving the rod at a low speed.

great job, looks awesome.

irishwebber01 said:

great job, looks awesome.

Click to expand...

Thanks

Now I just need to get it painted. Might have to fly it naked tomorrow.

jj94 said:

A D9 should be just fine for it. I flew mine on an A8 before and it was perfectly stable. It was flying in 15-20 mph winds, so I have no worries of it leaving the rod at a low speed.

Click to expand...

I'm not sure the D9 will work with the way I modded this one. It's relatively heavy for the D9 and the thrust curve doesn't have any initial spike. In fact, the thrust curve as it shows up in the .eng file of Wrasp32 is almost A shaped. It's a slow build to top thrust so I think it will be too slow to get it off the rod at a safe speed.

Not that it matters much. Between the reloads and SU motors available, there's still a dozon different motors to fly this rocket on.

I flew the Patriot yesterday.

It's still naked, but that worked out well. The zipperless design also came in very handy!

There was a night launch at Battle Park but they wanted the rockets to have a successful flight during the day first.

I found a Rayovac Kid's Adventure Light at Wal-mart that has an LED and could be turned on steady or set to blink. I remove the light from the headband and bracket and with a little carving on the base of the nose cone, got it to fit in the Patriot nose cone.

The first flight, during the day, was on a D12-5. It was breezy, so I put a 12" Estes chute with about a 4" hole cut out of the middle. It really isn't much more then a streamer. Well the 5 second delay was just NOT enough. When the ejection charge went off the Patriot was still moving so fast that it actually ripped the snap swivel in half. The rocket came down fast and the chute headed for the Blue Ridge. Other then a little dirt on the nose cone and half a snap swivel, no damage to the Patriot.

I picked up a pack of D12-7s for the night flight. When it came time to make my very first night flight, the light was amazingly bright blinking through the white nose cone. The D12-7 had a nice bright flame and left a huge trail of sparks as it drifted up to apogee. The ejection was almost perfect, maybe slightly nose down. The 12" chute had it drifting a 1/4 mile. It didn't seem like there was any wind at all, but the upper levels were still quite strong.

The blinking light made it very easy to find. It was probably easier to find in the tall grass at night then it would have been during the day.

All in all, a good first couple of flights.

Ive done this as well but to help drifting try a 9inch X-form chute it will help alot.

I might just do that.

I need to cut the center out of another estes chute. I think I have 4 or 5 sitting in the range box. Still can't beleive it tore the snap swivel in half.

Do you make your own X-form chutes or buy them somewhere?

Do you have any pictures of the flight, I would love to see them. It sounds like it was a nice flight, other than the chute breaking off.

No, sorry, no pics. It did fly well. The D12-5 really got it going. The only real problem was the 5 second delay blew while it was still hauling upwards.

The night flight on the D12-7 was much better. It was just tipping over near apogee when it pooped the chute! I never knew the smoke trail contained so many sparks.

Now I'm really curious how it will do on an E or F load.

I get alot of my stuff from here
https://www.redarrowhobbies.com/
they got a 10 inch that will be perfect for it