Preassembling reloads

I asked this question, embedded in another thread, and didn't get a response so I'll repost the question here.

If you preassemble your reloads, a day or two before going to the field, has anyone ever had a problem with the silicon seeping through to the grains and/or delay?

I've assembled a G64 months before I actually used it without problems. And I've assembled several other AT high power loads a few days before with success. If you do this, after tightening down the aft closure, loosen it about a quarter turn to relieve the pressure on the O-rings. You shouldn't have these under pressure for long periods of time until you are actually ready to fire it.

You only need to grease the o-rings lightly, so there should be no issue of grease contaminating the delay. As for liners and such, if you don't grease them, you would not have an issue. There has been something about grease soaking into paper liners and causing possible problems, so it may not be a good idea greasing liners if you plan to store the motor. Also, keeping the closers slightly loose is also a good idea, for AMW, Kosdon, Loki loads this is not an issues since the o-rings do not press into any propellant.

One note on not greasing liners, I have found that liners are easier to remove and cases easier to clean if the liner is not greased.

Have you found it easier to clean without grease on the liner? With any large 54mm motors I have found that it helps a lot to prevent residue, I use a high temp grease...

That completely contradicts my experience. I've forgotten to grease the liners a couple times before, and it makes cleanup a real pain. When it's well greased, the liner just slides out, and the case has almost no residue left in it.

I have assembled MPR and HPR reload kits (not including AT redline propellants) before without ANY problems up to 6 months before they have been fired. I try to avoid this, but occaisionally, conditions don't give me other options, such as chaning weather and/or winds that cause me to scrub a flight, so a few days is no problem at all.

Originally posted by akpilot
If you preassemble your reloads, a day or two before going to the field, has anyone ever had a problem with the silicon seeping through to the grains and/or delay?

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One thing to keep in mind is that AT will not warranty reloads that have been assembled for more than 12 hours:

"Not covered: Failure to ignite, any failure of recovery system deployment not the result of delay element extinguishment, reload kits not used in accordance with instructions or modified in any way, <b>any reload kit assembled more than twelve hours before flight</b>, any incidental or consequential failure or damage related to use in a cluster or in staged applications."

from AT's website - follow the Warranty link.

tms

That completely contradicts my experience

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Thought you were contradicting what I said, didnt want to start an arugement in this thread! But it's nice to have somebody back up what I said

I am sure with some small motors it may help to leave it out but when you get into the larger stuff it really does help, for me it takes a bit more time to get all the grease out of the long case (cant fit my hand in a 54mm motor case), but when I do most of the residue is gone.

Without grease (or with less appropriate greases) I have been left with small black residue spots that are near impossible to remove without harsh cleaners like brake cleaner etc..

I do some of the assembly at home, mostly for smaller 24mm reloads (I don't like to open the bag for bigger motors until necessary, and I usually only buy HPR at the field). I put the delay/spacer/liner together, put the grains in the liner, and make sure the liners fit in the case (24mm are often too tight). That leaves only a few minutes of work in the field.

Good Topic!
First, if the motor has been pre-assembled, as long as the ejection charge has not been installed, I don't see how loosening the closures could hurt.
Second, I have had some unsatisfactory results with pre-assembled motors having the "lubricant" ooze into the BP after the sun popped out unexpectedly. ( I have had no further issues since I started using white lithium)
Third, Is ther any concern about transporting the the assembled motor vs the un-assembled kit, or is that just a shipping issue?
Dr Don

For mid power reloads, you are probably fine transporting the assembled motors as they are no different than a single use motor after being loaded.

However, for High Power you definitely need a LEUP, which you need to legally buy the motors to begin with. Just make sure you transport the motors assembled, or not, in a portable storage magazine or a "day box."

However, since I am not a legal authority on these matters so read the orange book and make your own decision based on the regulations presented there.

I had an F40 in a case for 3 months *curses at weather*

thanx, Ben

I think that when prepping a rocket when so many distractions are present, building the motor loosely in advance of the flight makes a lot of sense. As well for the BP cannisters. Allows more focus for the stuff that needs to be done on site:chute packing, electronics setup, etc.
JS

Originally posted by ben
I had an F40 in a case for 3 months *curses at weather*

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I have to second this. I had an F40 in a case ready to go for just over a month. I was a little too slow and couldn't get the rocket on the pad before the sun went down the first month. Then in an effort to try to unload it - I ruined the delay grain. (Don't ask - too embarassing!)

So... I flew it the next month in a spool rocket that didn't need ejection charges! But it worked flawlessly and the experience seems to prove that you can load these ahead of time if there is a need.

Don't you have to be careful when preassembling blue thunder and redline loads because of the burn rate catalysts in the propellants?

Originally posted by jj94
Don't you have to be careful when preassembling blue thunder and redline loads because of the burn rate catalysts in the propellants?

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I have heard a lot about Redlines... but nothing "from the horses mouth" so I can't say. I pointed out in one of my posts here that the F40 was used with a spool rocket so the delay grain was not important in my case.

Originally posted by jj94
Don't you have to be careful when preassembling blue thunder and redline loads because of the burn rate catalysts in the propellants?

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that used to be a problem but that has been resolved for 1-2 years I beieved. If they are newer loads don't worry.

thanx, Ben

Originally posted by ben
that used to be a problem but that has been resolved for 1-2 years I beieved. If they are newer loads don't worry.

thanx, Ben

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Hummm... lot's of reports of Redline problems with both new and old reloads and with sealed and unsealed delay grains.

Originally posted by jraice
Thought you were contradicting what I said, didnt want to start an arugement in this thread! But it's nice to have somebody back up what I said

I am sure with some small motors it may help to leave it out but when you get into the larger stuff it really does help, for me it takes a bit more time to get all the grease out of the long case (cant fit my hand in a 54mm motor case), but when I do most of the residue is gone.

Without grease (or with less appropriate greases) I have been left with small black residue spots that are near impossible to remove without harsh cleaners like brake cleaner etc..

Click to expand...

Jordan,

I greased up a Loki K960 and the liner stuck to the case for good when I tried to clean the motor out 30 minutes later. Since it was at LDRS I took it over to Jeff Taylor's tent, and he used his liner removal tool to cut the liner into three pieces and got it out.

Jeff of LOKI then told me NOT to grease the paper phenolic liner of the 54mm motors. I flew a L1400, and another K960 later in the year with no grease and the liner came out fine.

I also flew an AMW K670GG with no grease on the liner and the liner came out fine.

Something about grease on paper phenolic seems to cause problems for me.

I do not grease the liners on Aerotech small motors like the 24mm,29mm, 38mm RMS either and everything comes out smooth and clean.

On motors Liners I have lubed, they have been larger black phenolic liners and I used Ultra-Lube.

Example, on my CTI pro75 and pro98 motor flights, I have used a PFTE Ultra-lube on the liners and have been able to slip them back out for easy cleaning.

*This is just my experience being reported and is not in any way meant to be a recommendation for others to use. If your liner is still stuck for more then 4 hours, please see a motor doctor immediately

Originally posted by uncle_vanya
Hummm... lot's of reports of Redline problems with both new and old reloads and with sealed and unsealed delay grains.

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that depends. A vendor could have a large stock from a few years ago that have unsealed delays. Others might have placeda recent order. Just check the bag. I believe Gary exchanges them if they are unsealed.

thanx, Ben

Originally posted by Art Upton
Jordan,

I greased up a Loki K960 and the liner stuck to the case for good when I tried to clean the motor out 30 minutes later. Since it was at LDRS I took it over to Jeff Taylor's tent, and he used his liner removal tool to cut the liner into three pieces and got it out.

Jeff of LOKI then told me NOT to grease the paper phenolic liner of the 54mm motors. I flew a L1400, and another K960 later in the year with no grease and the liner came out fine.

I also flew an AMW K670GG with no grease on the liner and the liner came out fine.

Something about grease on paper phenolic seems to cause problems for me.

I do not grease the liners on Aerotech small motors like the 24mm,29mm, 38mm RMS either and everything comes out smooth and clean.

On motors Liners I have lubed, they have been larger black phenolic liners and I used Ultra-Lube.

Example, on my CTI pro75 and pro98 motor flights, I have used a PFTE Ultra-lube on the liners and have been able to slip them back out for easy cleaning.

*This is just my experience being reported and is not in any way meant to be a recommendation for others to use. If your liner is still stuck for more then 4 hours, please see a motor doctor immediately

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Well, I can't claim experience with the larger loki loads, but every Aerotech I fly, I grease them and they come out fine. The black phenolic ones especially seem to slip right out when they have been greased.

Originally posted by Art Upton
Jordan,

I greased up a Loki K960 and the liner stuck to the case for good when I tried to clean the motor out 30 minutes later. Since it was at LDRS I took it over to Jeff Taylor's tent, and he used his liner removal tool to cut the liner into three pieces and got it out.

Jeff of LOKI then told me NOT to grease the paper phenolic liner of the 54mm motors. I flew a L1400, and another K960 later in the year with no grease and the liner came out fine.

I also flew an AMW K670GG with no grease on the liner and the liner came out fine.

Something about grease on paper phenolic seems to cause problems for me.

I do not grease the liners on Aerotech small motors like the 24mm,29mm, 38mm RMS either and everything comes out smooth and clean.

On motors Liners I have lubed, they have been larger black phenolic liners and I used Ultra-Lube.

Example, on my CTI pro75 and pro98 motor flights, I have used a PFTE Ultra-lube on the liners and have been able to slip them back out for easy cleaning.

*This is just my experience being reported and is not in any way meant to be a recommendation for others to use. If your liner is still stuck for more then 4 hours, please see a motor doctor immediately

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Well I need one of those--for a lightly greased AMW M load that stuck pretty good.


Art, Tell me about this tool Jeff had.
JS

Originally posted by denverdoc
Well I need one of those--for a lightly greased AMW M load that stuck pretty good.


Art, Tell me about this tool Jeff had.
JS

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>>If your liner is still stuck for more then 4 hours, please see a motor doctor immediately

Well, you should have seeked Motor Attention Immediately!

I hope I am not giving away any Loki Trade secrets here

Here is what Jeff told me to make, and what I saw him use.

Get a hollow square of steel or aluminum, about say around 3/8 or 7/16 inch in width.

now cut a diagonal slice out of it at one end, so you have a slanted diamond shape tip.

Put this at the top of the liner and strike with a rubber or wooden mallet to cut a slot into the liner. Jeff was able to do this in three strikes, and the liner was cut into three pieces, that then fell out.

The diamond shaped edge cuts a slot right into the liner from top to bottom, but does not seem to hurt the case. You might take off some coloring, but who will see on the inside.

With one I did it took me about 12 slices or so and about 15 mins but that was my first try.

Art

Art,

Sounds good, about how much of a section was cut off to make the bevel?
JS

Originally posted by denverdoc
Art,

Sounds good, about how much of a section was cut off to make the bevel?
JS

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It looked like about 1.5:1 to me for the spike end.

Make sure it's done so the tip is at the end of the diamond shape. So cut diagonal from edge to edge, not flat to flat.

Art