Level 1 kit selection?

Get the Excel. The Excel Plus is nice, too but until you turn 18 & can cert L2, you'll get more enjoyment from the Excel IMO.

As for motor hardware, you definitely need the 38/240 case for your cert. The 38/360 & 38/480 cases will also be needed in the future to fly I motors. Get the High Power set. This would include a forward and aft closure, the 240, 360, 480 cases, and the seal disk (required for certain reloads); the closures are interchangeable between all the cases so you don't need closures for each case. This will cost you about $220. If you can't afford it then just get the 38/240 motor which will include the closures and case (the seal disk isn't needed for this case size). When you can afford then just buy the 360 & 480 cases, about $50 a piece (not motors, as you don't need more closures) and the seal disk ($10).

EDIT: Forgot to add. Get the Dr. Rocket or Rouse-tech RMS motors. They are fully compatible with Aerotech reloads (in fact, licensed by Aerotech), but are much better quality than Aerotech's own.

Check out https://www.wildmanrocketry.com for great prices. Join his club ($30/yr) and get 10% off most items + free shipping a every shipment for the entire year. Still have to pay the hazmat charges on RMS reloads that are subject to them ($20/shipment).

Don't order anything from BSD. They have not been shipping kits for about a year.

No BSD kits are on his list. The Excel, etc kits are Binder. Two totally different companies. Binder's perfectly reputable with his distrubors having kits or getting direct.

Look about five or six posts up and he mentions BSD.

Sweet lord, the 38 mm cases are incredibly expensive!!!
The 38/240 is $88.30 and the 38/360 is $90.20!!!
That'll be more than my rocket will cost!
Wow, do you know how much the reloads cost?? And are they difficult to set up?
But anyway, I guess if I'm gonna do this I've gotta go all the way...maybe I should get another job. Looks good for college too eh?
But, since the RouseTech cases are only 2 bucks difference in price, do you think I should just buy the 360? Will that one allow me to fly a variety of both H's and I's, or will I be restricted to I's and a few H's? No way am I gonna get more than one at that price! Thanks for the response though.

I had no idea BSD was not shipping/outta business. On the EMRR site they still have them listed, and I don't think under OOP...

First...PAY ATTENTION to what you are buying and my previous post! Those prices are for MOTORS which include the closures, case and seal disk (if needed for that case). You don't need more than one set of closures. The 240 and 360 are a good start. Those will allow to fly about 6 different reloads. Check out the Aerotech website for which reloads.

So...here's what you should buy,

1) 38/240 motor. That will give you a set of closures and the 240 case
2) 38/360 case. This should only be about $40-$50.
3) a seal disk ($10). You don't need it right away for these cases, but will for reloads for the 480 case and higher.

What you have to realize if you really want to get into high power rocketry is it can be expensive. If you are unwilling or cannot afford these kind of expenses then maybe it's not for you. Also, realize that with proper cleaning and maintanence these cases will last you a very long time.

Reload prices vary: 240 reloads are around $20, 360 reloads are about $30.

Check out Wildman for prices. He also shows which reloads go with which case. Goto the motor section. Then select Aerotech, then from the top select 38mm easy access reloads. Keep in mind that if buying online you'll pay $20 in hazmat shipping (no matter which retailer you choose...it's LAW) in ADDITION to the normal shipping. If only ordering a few reloads it might be better to get your reloads from an on-site vendor at your club launch - if there is one.

BUT: You have a major problem. You CANNOT buy the reloads for several reasons.
1) You aren't certified level 1 yet. You need to get the motor the day of your launch from an onsite vendor and tell him you need it for your cert. He'll only sell you one motor at time..until you successfully cert.
2) And perhaps more major for the future. You are not 18. Therefore, you are not legally allowed to purchase ANY motor above F - even AFTER you successfully cert. You'll need to have someone purchase your motors for you that is certified and of legal age.

NOTE: You can still purchase all the hardware. There is no age requirement or cert requirement for that. It's only the reloads (the fuel!) that is subjected to cert and age restrictions.

Reloads are not that difficult to assemble. Be sure to grease what they tell you and you should be fine. It's probably best to have someone at your club launch show you the proper method. Most members are very willing to help out the newbies.

By motor I mean (I think): case, aft closure, forward closure:

Wait a minute, I still have to buy the "motor," per se. In my previous post I was merely stating the prices of different sets. Ok, well I guess I didn't know that the "motor" comes with two closures that can be used on...any 38 mm case? Or just these? So what if I JUST wanted to buy one of those "motors," and not get the 30-40 dollar case of the other one. Should I get JUST the 38/240 motor, or JUST the 38/360? And I doubt I'll get the seal disk now...I see no reason for it at this time, if I don't even have a motor to accomodate it. So I'll just stick with one case and set of closures...for now.

By the way, for the Binder Designs Excel, do I need to cut the slots for the fins in the body tube? Cause I'm not sure if I can do that, and I think I heard that someone asked the guy at Binder to make the cuts before shipping and he did it, free of charge. But if that can't be done, and even if it can, would a Dremel be a worthy investment, or at least at this point?

Edit: I have also been looking more extensively at Wildman Rocketry, and it looks like a) Dr. Rocket has a 38/240-480 case, and b)Loki has a three motor set for $165, with 240, 480, and 740.
Any thoughts?

OK...first a bit of terminology leason .

It would be a good idea to use RELOAD when refering to fuel or propellent used. Reloads include the propellent grains, a liner, O-rings, delay element, a little black powder (for the ejection charge), ignitor, and a few other bits necessary to assemble a fully functional motor This is what goes into the case, then sealed up with the closures.

Now...at this time since you can only afford one motor (hardware), I'd get the 38/240 motor hardware. That will give you four different H reload options you could use for your Jr Level 1 and afterward. They have nearly the same total impulse but significantly different thrustcurves and avg thrust. You should do a little 'research' to familiarize yourself with this terminiology. Aerotech's website is the best start.

If you can afford the motor set...YES! Get the Dr. Rocket 240-480 set. It saves you quite a bit of money to get the set instead of getting stuff piece meal. That set will give you the 2 closures, seal disk, and the 3 cases. Those three hardware cases give you 12 reload options to fly your rocket on. I suggest the Dr rocket over Loki; there are more reload options available for the Dr Rocket cases.

Fin slots are easy to cut using a new, sharp exacto. No need for a dremel. Binder tubes are paper-- thick paper --but still paper..easy to cut with a few careful passes. And the tubes should be premarked. But, I also think Binder will cut the slots if you request it.. Call them and ask.

"The Excel Plus is nice, too but until you turn 18 & can cert L2, you'll get more enjoyment from the Excel IMO."

True but then if money is short you'll already have a bird capable of certing L2 without any problem....will fly fine on 29 H's or 38 H's, I's, or J's....

F16,

Cutting the fins slots really isn't all that hard on these tubes, a simple hobby knife does the job just fine, a dremel can be used also.

You might want to consider buying a copy of "Modern High Power Rocketry 2" by Mark Canepa. It will explain a lot of the terminology and has lots of pictures that will help clear things up.

I'm gonna go L1 with a LOC Aura.

Originally posted by f16fan12
Sweet lord, the 38 mm cases are incredibly expensive!!!
The 38/240 is $88.30 and the 38/360 is $90.20!!!
That'll be more than my rocket will cost!
Wow, do you know how much the reloads cost?? And are they difficult to set up?

Click to expand...

Judging by the above posts we've sorted out the difference between motors and casings. BTW you might want to consider the basic 38mm set. That includes the closures , the 240,360, and 480ns cases , and a seal disk. Don't know of anyone offering a deal on it ; but it is cheaper than buying the pieces one at a time.

Reloads for the 38/240 are about $20. More for redlines.
Reloads for the 38/360 are about $28. Dito readlines.

If you buy a 38mm motor ; consider the 38/120 case. The 1 grain G load is very easy to assemble. Good training for larger reloads and you don't have to be certified to buy it. You do need to be 18 though.

I'd also recomend the Modern High Power book mentioned in a previous post. I have the first edition and it would have saved me some BS a few years back.


Al
BRS VP
NAR l2

I'm pretty sure I understand the motor terminology. I really have done a lot of reading on rocketry on the internet and have read through most of the handbook on model rocketry as well as "Model Rocket Design and Construction." Admittedly, these books are geared toward your low power- maybe mid-power at most- rocketeer, but I think it can be agreed upon that the same principles really can be applied, just beefed up. Most, not all. I did build the Io and bought the 29/40-120 RMS case for it, and I have successfully loaded a G33 reload into it (my only mistake was putting on the ignitor, as I scratched the metal a bit and I guess there wasn't continuity because of that). My question "is it difficult to assemble the higher power reloads" was asked simply because I was wondering whether there were any significant differences between the H and I reloads and the G or F reloads.
I will certainly look into that book "Modern High Power Rocketry."
firemanup, I did look at the Excel Plus and think about whether that may be a better choice for my future in rocketry, but I'm hoping by the time I am ready to certify level 2, I will have had enough experience to be ready to build a rocket of my own design, or at the very least a more complex kit. hartlch, since you launch with MDRA, do you know if the vendor at the launches, hangar some number, has H and/or I reloads? Cause I sure don't wanna pay that 20$ hazmat fee...

Thanks everyone for your responses thus far.

The vendor at most of the launches is Ken Allen from Performance Hobbies. He usually has most of the H and I motors on hand. If there is anything specific you need, then give him a call before launch day to make sure he will have it. Other vendors that show up are Hangar 11 and now Magnum Rocketry is in our area. The vendors are usually listed in the prelaunch announcements that are sent out to members. You might want to give magnumrockets.com a look. It's possible they still have some cases you want at the old prices.

F16...

Sounds like you have read the right materials. I think you'll do fine assembling the Excel. Binder's instructions are very good. Just be sure to think about and install motor retention before epoxying in the rear centering ring this time. I like the Aeropack system, but some don't want to spend that price. I think it's worth it.

Since you've assembled a G33 reload, the high power reloads are not much different. The main difference is the delay element is assembled slightly - but not much - differently. The good point is the high power reloads come with First Fire ignitors which are much better than the finicky copperheads (although I haven't had a problem yet) which come in the hobby line reloads. Also, the propellent grains are not C-slot, they are Bates which instead of the slot have a hole in the middle...amounts to different burn characteristics and bit easier to insert the ignitor.

Good luck.

Ha ha, thanks. How'd you know I had a motor retention problem in the other rocket?

So you're saying I can get the 38/240-480 RMS system from Dr. Rocket, load it with an Aerotech reload, and use it in a Binder Excel?

That haz mat fee is a pain. I try to avoid it when possible.

I'm pretty sure Performance Hobbies attends most MDRA launches. You can check Ken's schedule on the web site.

You are mostly correct. Most tecniques scale up OK from mid-power to hi. The same isn't true from low power.

Get the book. It'll will save you some headaches and make the learning curve a bit easier.


Al
BRS VP
NAR L2

38/240-480 is about 130ish dollars...IIRC. 3 cases, closures, seal disk.

Originally posted by f16fan12
So you're saying I can get the 38/240-480 RMS system from Dr. Rocket, load it with an Aerotech reload, and use it in a Binder Excel?

Click to expand...

I'd go with the Binder Excel Plus; a little bit more kit, but not too much for a L1 cert, especially if you want to eventually fly it in low end I motors.

EMRR has several rocket reviews by people who have done their certifications on a particular kit. Very useful if you haven't fully settled on the Binder Excel Plus, or you want to shop around a bit.

On a side note to something someone up-thread said; thank you for the heads-up on BSD. I've had my eye on a Canadian Sprint for a while, but may hold off on that another year.

Originally posted by DJDeadParrot
On a side note to something someone up-thread said; thank you for the heads-up on BSD. I've had my eye on a Canadian Sprint for a while, but may hold off on that another year.

Click to expand...

I doubt holding off a year will help. I think BSD may be forever gone. It's unfortunate, too as they made some great kits. Try cloning! EMRR has the rocksim file so all you need are decals/vinyl.

Originally posted by Fore Check
I'm gonna go L1 with a LOC Aura.

Click to expand...

You are never going to find the Aura, it will be the last you will see of it launched on a H for L1. I have one, it went 5000 feet on a G.
Mark

Take a look at a PML Tethys. 4" airframe, G-10 fins, quickchange motor mount. Easy to build very durable and can easily be setup for dual deployment in the future. Check out the 29/180 AT motor.
Could cert on an H238 or H128. With size of rocket will keep altitude down and make Certification flight simple (short and sweet) and keep cost down for a top quality rocket . Used mine for both my L1 and L2 certification.

Bigdog
L2

Yeah, you know, I looked at a lot of PML kits and they all look great. It's just that I just built an Io and I would like to try out rockets from different manufacturers, so I can know what's out there. Granted, rockets from different manufacturers aren't all that dissimilar, but I'm sure there are some differences. And also the Tethys is around 30$ more than the Excel. I really do like that Kwik-Switch thing though, cause then I could fly it with my 29 mm case too. But I wanna make the complete transition to high-power without it being very expensive, and I worry that if I buy the Tethys now, I'll feel like I should buy the 29mm high power casings, but then I'll want a 38mm kit, and then I'll have to buy casings for that...you see? Certainly sometime in the future I will buy a PML kit, that's for sure. I just feel like doing my Level 1 on a reasonably priced true high power kit. Ok, I guess you could say the same thing about the Tethys...but whatever!

Thanks,
Jesse

Originally posted by f16fan12
So you're saying I can get the 38/240-480 RMS system from Dr. Rocket, load it with an Aerotech reload, and use it in a Binder Excel?

Click to expand...

Basically yes. Dr Rocket is under license from Aerotech. The motors/hardware is exactly the same. Only the color is changed to protect the inocent. The Rouse Tech is the same too. Find the best deal and buy the system.

Al
BRS VP
NAR L2

start with 400 dollars...this will be the general minimum for L1 rocketry. if you're not willing to spend 400 dollars, then stick to MPR. you're going to have to sink say 2-300 dollars into casings for H-I loads, and then your rocket+loads. even if you stick with 29mm hdware, the cheapest loads are 15 bucks, then it goes all the way up to like 30-40 for an I200. casings will cost you 100-150 for the 29mm HPR set. then whatever loads...best thing about 29mm HPR is that there's no hazmat on the H and I loads, only the G75. so no extra 20 dollar charge per order for motors...

Originally posted by Fore Check
I'm gonna go L1 with a LOC Aura.

Click to expand...

Wow!!!

That might be one of the highest level 1 certification flights ever attempted.

If you are sure this is the rocket you want to use, you might want to consider using an Ellis Mountain single use H motor, that way, you won't possibly lose an RMS casing.

Just a sugguestion.

i've heard of someone using an H to cert with an AURA...and i believe they go it back...also, a G will put an aura <4000' AGL, a G80 will put it just above 3300' and a G40 will get it closer to 4,000. an H128 sims to like 5-5.5K. i had it all simmed last year when i launched mine on a G80 and lost it. be sure to reinforce the fins and keep the stock streamer, also throw a wad of tracking powder in that puppy, you're gonna need it.

I had a similar thought, but changed my mind. I had bought an LOC/Precision Graduator to "graduate" on, after doing mid-power flights with it first. The good people here spoke wisely to me and shared the sim information, and I'm now convinced that my Graduator should be used strictly as mid-power bird to learn on (and of course to enjoy in that role) and that when I decide to go for my L1 cert, I need a larger bird. My Grad is built somewhat heavy (part of my learning, I guess), so I'll have to fly it on E30's up, probably, but it's still not an L1 bird. It's plenty strong for that purpose, but an H would send it to too high. A certification flight should be nice and predictable/recoverable, and sending it up 5000+ feet is not really compatible with that profile.

It may be (from what I'm reading here) that the choice of an LOC Aura to cert on may benefit from similar re-thinking.

Originally posted by Mag
You are never going to find the Aura, it will be the last you will see of it launched on a H for L1. I have one, it went 5000 feet on a G.
Mark

Click to expand...

My bad, Aura with G80 goes 4400 feet and H128 goes to 6000 feet. It is wise to use a bigger rocket and fly low and get your L1. Your chances are very, very slim if you use a H for the Aura as it is a real small rocket and blows off the pad and will be hard to track and recover safely and your L1 is on the line. My 2 cents.
Mark