OOP - Estes Pheonix - mod help :(

I am currently modifying an Estes Pheonix to a dual stage modle woth 24mm booster and 29mm Sistainer (I know all I am gonna here is :it's backwards do a 29mm toa 24mm MMT" ) I have the model done and I just need to paint and sand. I covered 90% of the body with 1/16" or less of wood putty(don't ask why I just did it for strength) it will be 1/64" when I am done sanding I flew it on and E9-4 and it was WAY underpowerd on BP so the smallest I will use it F39 staged and G single. The main question I have is what type of igniter will the Xavien dual stage timer be able to ignite AND be able to light the CP motor???

thanx, Ben

P.S. post pics ASAP

ummmm.... If I may ask.... why are you modifying it to use this 24mm/29mm dual stage power system? Aerotech has reintroduced the 32mm RMS motor and reloads for which the Phoenix was designed.

As an owner and flyer of a Phoenix, I can attest to the fact that the 32mm RMS system works great. The F13T reloads are great for test and low altitude flights, and the G12T reload puts the Phoenix up to 800 feet or more. In October my son and I flew rocket gliders at the Whitakers, NC launch, and he kept the Phoenix up for 4 and a half minutes on a G12T boost.

While your power system may work OK, it seems like an awful lot of complication to go to when the motor that the kit was designed for is available.

Uh, he's talking about the ESTES Phoenix....

ooops.... thanks BN. Missed that part.

Whenever I see the word Phoenix, my brain automatically goes to the Aerotech RCRG.

Suggestion: To avoid confusion folks should say "Estes Phoenix Missile". That way even if someone forgets to read the "Estes" part they might still catch the "Missile" part.

Originally posted by KenParker
ooops.... thanks BN. Missed that part.

Whenever I see the word Phoenix, my brain automatically goes to the Aerotech RCRG.

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Man, you need to be more specific--I can't tell what you're saying.

The way I'm reading it, you've already built it with the stock 24mm mount, and it's too heavy for 24mm flights b/c you have covered it in too much wood putty. Now how do you plan on making this a two stager with a 29mm in the sustainer when you've already (technically) built the upper stage?

As for your timer question, any ematch, Quickburst Poppers, and probably a Magnelite will work.

I have built the whole model with a 24mm MMT installed on the Booster and Sustainer. I have only glued the 24mm MMT in the sustainer with Elmer's so it shouldn't be to hard to remove. The booster section seperates roughly 1/4" after the long upper fins it is long enough (booster) for a Estes C11 and D motors and an Estes E if I wrap a 1/2" section of tape on the nozzle end to act as a Engine hook and tape the egine to the MMT around the bottom to keep it still/stuck whatever I hope that is enough info I will get pictures tonight I got my camera back.

thanx, Ben

C11-0 booster motors are out of production and can not lift very much weight.

D12-0 booster motors are still in prodcution but can only lift about 1 pound - and that is a struggle.

E9-0 booster motors were *NEVER* put into production or sold at retail.

Originally posted by ben
I have built the whole model with a 24mm MMT installed on the Booster and Sustainer. I have only glued the 24mm MMT in the sustainer with Elmer's so it shouldn't be to hard to remove. The booster section seperates roughly 1/4" after the long upper fins it is long enough (booster) for a Estes C11 and D motors and an Estes E if I wrap a 1/2" section of tape on the nozzle end to act as a Engine hook and tape the egine to the MMT around the bottom to keep it still/stuck whatever I hope that is enough info I will get pictures tonight I got my camera back.

thanx, Ben

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Originally posted by shreadvector
Suggestion: To avoid confusion folks should say "Estes Phoenix Missile". That way even if someone forgets to read the "Estes" part they might still catch the "Missile" part.

Click to expand...

I was thinking it should be P.h.o.e.n.i.x. <vbg>

Doug

I got some pics of it and "specs"

it weighs 13oz total
5oz nosecone
34" (After section is added 30" wothout)
Booster seperates about a 1/4" after forward fins plan on doing a 29mm MMT all the way through so I can fly 29mm one staged and I can do 24mm woth adapter.

btw had a crazy thought glass the inside ,k then.... out 54mm Kwick-switch in the sustainer to fly on super large motors
(doubt it but and idea would defimitaly need to strengthin it )

thanx, Ben

here is another of the whole rocket 15" Nylon parachute and 1/8" Kaevlar strap

this one is of the booster section alone covered by wood putty

this one shows the whole body covered in wood putty and "That's all folks "

thanx, Ben

Hey ben - where's the timer bay?

I will be adding the alt bay when Christmas arrives (get my drift?? ) I am getting and Xavien dual timer to put inside a LOC BT-80 coupler and add a 4" section of BT-80 for the drouge etc. I da CJL sim it for me and will see if he will post it for viewing the "main" dual stage angines that I will fly it one will be an F39 to a G64 if I get it glassed and ets I *might* be able to push a 29mm in the booster if I add a small section (3/4" at the aft 1/2" at the front aproxx.) I plan on doing a 29mm MMT all the way through and using an adapter in the booster so if I want I can fly 29mm singel staged or 24mm to 29mm. I had an idea of adding 3 24mm MMT around the 29mm so I can fly 3 motors singled staged?? I fugured thsi should work but leme know.

thanx, Ben

Here is just a rough sim file that I threw together. It does not sim the DD that ben wants to (ambitiously) do, but it has the basic staged configuration, and a rough weight.

If I read this right you will boost with a 24mm F39 to a G64 and all that wood filler will make it stronger and not heavier.
Make sure to get lots of flight pics I gotta se this.

I plann on sanding 70% of it off and glassing it with .58 oz fiberglass from Aerosleeve. Yes I will make shure to take pics
it does sound ambitious doing DD but I want to actually get this thing back or my other option is to get an altimiter and do it that way (I say this and all I will hear is "di it that way" "the altimiter is better")

thanx, Ben

how were you planning on doing DD without an altimeter and just a timer?

one word..

SKILL
I will time some motors and use aerotech's burn times to "estimate" the time to ignite the second stage motor and deply the main

thanx, Ben

Originally posted by ben
one word..

SKILL
I will time some motors and use aerotech's burn times to "estimate" the time to ignite the second stage motor and deply the main

thanx, Ben

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I'm not sure I'm following you here...the question appears to remain: how can you do DD with a timer? Are you going to use the motor's charge for apogee and then guesstimate the main with the other channel of your timer? How much experience do you have with electronics?

Secondly, why are you glassing the rocket after you've already filled it with water putty? Filling comes after glassing.

Also, albeit it would be cool, you can't fit (3) 24mm's and (1) 29mm in a 2.5" airframe.

Not shooting you down, just trying to understand.

you would have to know some serious math, and you'd have to calculate for windage, rod angle...and all that stuff...what if the motor has less than advertised thrust? your timer is still going to be running, and if its waiting to deploy on a 30 second flight, and the flight only lasts 20 seconds, you've got a lawn dart and goodbye electronics! heh. you COULD theoretically time it to apogee, or close anyway, it's unlikely you'd ever get it spot on, but that would be useless, since the motors have eject charges for them in the hobby cases.

well....

I had another (expensive) Idea I could put an altimiter AND timer but that would be stupid and expensive thing I could use single then. I will be buying an altimiter soon for some rockets I am going to be building and I will prolly use a timer too so I could try thi setup in a rocket. I also am aware of the lawndarting but I will make shure that I underhoot buy 2-5 seconds so I don't have that problem (time it 2-5 seconds before I REALLY need it) I am at the point where you all are telling me to stay away from the electronics and do single I am about to give in I have some experince with electronics (not rocket train elec.) and I am in a high school math (Algebra I ) and I think Richard Nakka might have an eqution I could work out, I will check. when I say gleassing I don't know if you read that I will sand all of it off the best I could except on the fins then glass the whole BT and if I have extra the inside to prollty just a light coat of epoxy on the inside.

this is the problem as i see it. you want a 2 stage rocket with dual deploy, but you can't afford an altimeter so you're using a 2 stage timer instead...

the thing is, you have to know exactly how long the rocket is going to COAST, on a given motor, in order to time the ejection, not only that, you have 2 pyro channels on the timer, and you'd be using 1 for second stage ignition, so you'd only be able to deploy at apogee (or however close to apogee you can deduce). there are no ways around it, it's much easier just to get an altimeter. dont give up on it. if you want it to be a 24-29mm 2 stager, then do that, just build it, dont fly it(dual deploy anyway) until you can get an altimeter. you can still do apogee deploy (though i dont know about trusting that with costly electronics inside ie. timer) until you get an altimeter.

Originally posted by ben
I covered 90% of the body with 1/16" or less of wood putty(don't ask why I just did it for strength)

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Ben,
Covering a whole rocket in wood putty is "penny wise, pound foolish". Very little strength, a ton a weight. You might as well glass the thing for the amount of weight you already have

Just my .02

Originally posted by ben
this one shows the whole body covered in wood putty and "That's all folks "

thanx, Ben

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I think he just wantted to get some sanding in and this was a way to make his quota.

It has been a while since I have posted but I am waiting for my $$ to acumulate but I have reconcidered the DD thing and I will buy a G-wiz Altimiter (still deciding, suggestions welcome ) to deploy the chutes at about 300 or 400'. The cone will have a 1.5" X 15" streamer on it instead of be connected to the body and the body wil have the same 15" Nylon chute on it I figured this isn't too much overkill since it has the weight of 2 cases and reload plus altmiter BTW I will use the altimiter to ignite the secind stage after it detects burnout and then deploy the chute and streamer at about 300 or 400'. I will not glass it I will just sand some of the putty off then add a THIN, VERY THIN layer (one coat) of West Systems epoxy to fill all dents and marks that I will later fill with a few spots of putty when they show up after priming. I would like to add a CD3 system in it after I get some money but the E-matches will work till then plus then I have one for future rockets.

thanx, Ben

I convinced my mom to take me too the hoby shop (not to hard its next to Joan Fabrics ) and I was looking at some of the epoxy resins, fiberglass cloths, etc. I noticed they have some 2oz fiberglass 9 square feet for only $6.50 (don't think thats too expensive ) so I decided to get some and a 2 part mix of finish-cure epoxy.I already had a talk in chat on how to glass and I will say they told me correct !! So I have the booster done and glassed all I need to do is to sand it today and finish the other half of the sustainer. I will prolly be able to sand it tonight if I get it done soon enough(8 -10 hours till sanding it says on the bottle)
I am prolly getting a RMS case for Christmas (CCCOOOMMEEE OOONNNN SANTA!!) so I will have enough for the altimiter by January maybe February. I am also going to use my airbrush and paint on the letters and stripes instead of using sh!&y ones Estes have I have previously bought some sticky-back paper that can be printed on so I will make a Photocopy of the letter decals and print them out on that paper and cut them out with a razor blade.That is the plan for the Phoenix so far!

thanx, Ben

here is a photo of the finished booster I need to sand. I am also curious how to sand and get the tops and bottoms of the fins smooth??? I have a bunch of hardened fibeglass hanging of the edges.

thanx, Ben

forgot pic

Ben