Overbuilding

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Ok, after the first flight of his Bulletproof Guardian on a C6-5 which he assured the previous RSO (whom you just replaced due to time slot rotation) would be a slow but safe flight that had ended up weather cocking for a low flight then does a 'too late ejection' core sample with the nose cone buried up to it's shoulder now presents the same Bulletproof Guardian on a D12-7 to you, the RSO, for check-in what do you do? Do you chaulk it up to bad luck for the L3 cert'ed flier and basically wave him in?

Uhh...no. I don't wave anyone in. The C6 flight sounds like a recovery issue not a construction issue.

After his second Bulletproof Guardian flight on the D12-7 ends up with a shredded plastic parachute due to a badly timed ejection (either being too early or too late that caused the shred) what do you do with his subsequent rockets presented to you as RSO? After his next rocket, a standard Guardian, comes down fast on a melted plastic parachute, what changes to safety inspection do you make for subsequent rockets he presents to you as RSO?

Hmmm...sounds like a recovery issue not a construction issue. Am I repeating myself? He better not show up at my RSO table with the same rocket/motor combination again.

Do you as RSO do anything different for any HPR's he presents for pre-flight safety inspection later in the day or the next day of the launch? After these three recovery failures in succession do you conduct thorough (as presented in the NAR safety officer training program sections A and B) safety inspections on all of his subsequent rockets, even after making a successful flight or two? Even after he begins to protest, claiming more knowledge as a L3 than you, a L2 flier, up to the point of 'making a scene' of the situation?

I ALWAYS make a thorough check of every rocket that comes across my table when I am RSO. I have yet to meet a L3 rocketeer that would "make a scene" over a rejected D motor flight. You must fly with a different type of crowd than me. If I had someone make a scene over my refusal to sign off a flight I think I might tell them very politely to go take a flying leap off of a cliff.

How do you handle the situation as the holder of the Certificate of Waiver, do you back up the RSO's judgement to inspect each rocket he presents for safety inspection despite the fact he's a close personal friend or a visiting club prefect? Or do you overrule the RSO and permit him to fly without intrusive inspections?

Regardless of who is holding the waiver, the RSO can't be over-ruled. Read up on the safety procedures. I give no preferential treatment to anyone because of who they are. I'm a little offended that you are implying that I might do that even though we've never met.

I've had lots of fliers refer to me as being a "picky" RSO. Frankly, I don't give a hoot. On the other hand if I don't want to sign off on a flight then I try to do what I can to help the flier get the issue fixed so he can fly (I try not to let it get to the point of telling them to take a flying leap). I hate to see folks drive all that way and then not be able to fly.

I had a kid and his Grandpa show up with a smallish 4" rocket and two 1/4" lugs. One of the lugs broke off at the pad while I was helping him set it up. My first words out of my mouth were, "Sorry dude, you can't fly it that that way." The remaining lug was just too short to work. I thought for a moment and said, "Hey, Red Arrow is right over there and has 5 minute epoxy. Stick that lug back on with some of that and you'll be good to go."

My point is, I think some of us are getting a bit anal about all of this. Instead of looking for ways they can't fly we should be looking for what needs to be done to help them so they can fly. Overbuilding is not a reason for "can't" IMHO.
 
The X-15 story reminds me of what happened with me and the SR-71, and how bad it could have been. It reinforces the emphasis that MUST be placed on safety, and my newly-formed theory that just because you can build it doesn't mean you are ready to fly it.
 
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I had another thought. I wanted to get opinions regarding the modular construction article in this year's NAR Handbook. For those that didn't receive it, it's an article about building rockets with modular techniques and composite materials like carbon fiber. I think it would fit in well with the discussion, although I don't think the implications were that the techniques were intended for LPR rockets.
 
Okay...taking deep breath...trying not to get irritated...

I do RSO duties every now and then and I can say with confidence that I would have ZERO problems with signing off on that rocket. I would be really surprised and disappointed if any L2 in my club wouldn't sign off on it. There is NOTHING in that build that violates the safety code or the intent of the code. Everything is just extra stiff for no good reason. Frankly, I think you are worrying about nothing. We ought to be more concerned with the fliers that are continually getting recovery wrong rather than some itty bitty Guardian that someone wasted a bunch of time and money on glassing.

If you are REALLY paranoid about it make sure the rods are slightly angled away from the crowd like they are supposed to be. Double check the thrust to weight ratio while you are at it because you can throw the recommended motors and delays right out the window at that point. I will agree that glassing that little kit is a waste of time and money but sheez doesn't anyone else think we are over thinking this issue a bit? Loosen up people. But hey, if you don't want a lot of people flying with your club feel free to nit-pick to death little rockets like that for no good reason and send those paying members my way.

You call it being paranoid; I call it being prudent.
Are you saying you don't fly safely?

You have a guy that is having recovery problems. He builds stronger rockets. He has more recovery problems. See where I'm going?
When does someone draw the line and say " Hey man, let's take a look at what you're doing".
Help them get it right.
NAR model rocket safety code says in part:"Materials. I will use only lightweight, non-metal parts for the nose, body, and fins of my rocket"

Fine, I'd tell the guy you can fly that, but you have to launch it from the G-H rack.

I had someone bring a rocket for RSO that had a research motor in it. I did the usual inspection of the rocket itself. Then asked about the motor. Their response"I don't know. That's why they call it research!"
See ya. I'm not signing off on the when you can't tell me if it'll have 5:1 or not.
That person found someone to sign off on it and it flew eventually. Here's the flight:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1EO2f6_6x4&feature=related
Goto time stamp 3:14 to see the flight I'm talking about. That rocket was ~40#
 
You call it being paranoid; I call it being prudent.
Are you saying you don't fly safely?
I see nothing in his post to indicate that he doesn't fly safely.

You have a guy that is having recovery problems. He builds stronger rockets. He has more recovery problems. See where I'm going?
When does someone draw the line and say " Hey man, let's take a look at what you're doing".
Help them get it right.
Fair enough. That's completely different from denying them the ability to fly a rocket that does not violate any safety codes though. Ask them questions about the recovery if you want when inspecting it, that's fine. You shouldn't just refuse due to flight history though. A refusal from the RSO should only be if there is a good reason to believe that the rocket being presented is unsafe in some way, or unsuitable for flight.

NAR model rocket safety code says in part:"Materials. I will use only lightweight, non-metal parts for the nose, body, and fins of my rocket"
Yep. Fiberglass, plastic, and every other component in the rocket in the article all fit this description though.

Fine, I'd tell the guy you can fly that, but you have to launch it from the G-H rack.
With a D motor? Why? If the rocket is light enough that a D motor is safe, and there's no question about stability, then there's no reason to put it out any farther than any other D motor.

I had someone bring a rocket for RSO that had a research motor in it. I did the usual inspection of the rocket itself. Then asked about the motor. Their response"I don't know. That's why they call it research!"
See ya. I'm not signing off on the when you can't tell me if it'll have 5:1 or not.
Agreed. That's not tremendously relevant to a commercial AP D motor though (or any other motor used in a small, LPR rocket, reinforced or not). It's easy enough to check the rocket's weight and the motor's certified thrust curve prior to flight, and there shouldn't be any uncertainty about the liftoff acceleration.

That person found someone to sign off on it and it flew eventually. Here's the flight:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1EO2f6_6x4&feature=related
Goto time stamp 3:14 to see the flight I'm talking about. That rocket was ~40#

Are you talking about the one that appears to have catoed or had a premature deployment (or something similar), or the vastly underpowered stubby rocket?

I would guess the stubby one, and if that's the case, you were right to refuse to sign off on it. It shouldn't be very hard to at least get a thrust estimate at liftoff on a research motor, and that rocket's thrust to weight was botched by enough of a margin that there's really no excuse on the part of the flyer. Again, that's not really relevant to small rockets powered by commercial motors though.
 
Thanks cjl...you said it all already.

Are you saying you don't fly safely?

Before we continue please cite which post I made that violates the safety code of either the TRA or NAR. Please also cite the particular line in the code that you are referring to. If I am indeed violating some safety code I would like to know. No one has managed to show me such a thing yet so I doubt I am.

Instead of throwing implications around please do me and everyone else a favor by sticking to facts.

-Dave
 
Thanks cjl...you said it all already.



Before we continue please cite which post I made that violates the safety code of either the TRA or NAR. Please also cite the particular line in the code that you are referring to. If I am indeed violating some safety code I would like to know. No one has managed to show me such a thing yet so I doubt I am.

Instead of throwing implications around please do me and everyone else a favor by sticking to facts.

-Dave

Dave:
Ask yourself a simple question:
If the model from this article were to strike a person or property which would suffer the most; Model or person/property? If we can answer the person or property then we have a problem. The third point presented in the forward of 40yrs of model rocket safety report states simply "our safety record can be directly tied to the fact that we build our models to self-destruct on impact". I think you and everyone can see that this not the case in ANY over-built model rocket. It's been said already the while the use of Fibreglass, carbon fibre and other exotic materials has a place in model rocketry in all its forms, it can easily be carried to extremes as was plainly done in this case. Really the SAFETY issue is the completed build not the models itself in this case. AS an RSO I've refused to let all acrylic models fly for this same reason...they are not Lightweight materials in the application presented.
Yes; it is my belief that we as a hobby MUST step in to stop the over use of legitamate materials that cuase a Potential public hazard, that is; a potential clear and present danger to life, limb and property of particapents, spectators. It's our duty to self-regulate or others will gladly do it for us. As Americans we DO NOT have the right to fly or do whatever we want whenever it suits us. We are guranteed the right to the persuit of happiness.. nothing in that statement says we're going to find or attain it;)
Most of us know the use of fibreglass and other exotic materials is totally unnecessary to building all but the very largest of "Hobby Rockets", while the practice has been "mainstreamed" as perfectly fine to make up for lack of Building/flying/recovery skills as can clearly be seen in the skills or lack there of reported by the article author. Really makes one wonder about the validity of both TRA & the NARS Certification process.
 
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Most of us know the use of fibreglass and other exotic materials is totally unnecessary to building all but the very largest of "Hobby Rockets", while the practice has been "mainstreamed" as perfectly fine to make up for lack of Building/flying/recovery skills as can clearly be seen in the skills or lack there of reported by the article author. Really makes one wonder about the validity of both TRA & the NARS Certification process.

RIGHT ON!



I posted this a while ago. I think it was missed by a lot of folks who read the article.

The model was too heavy for a "C" motor. It weighed something like 104g (+25g for the motor=129g), and Estes documentation states that the max take-off weight for a C6 is 113g including the motor. The "too short delay" was not a recovery issue, it was a lack-of-propellant issue - read as Poor Rocketeering Issue.

It was not a safe configuration, and a Level 3 rocketeer should know that. An RSO would not really have anyway of knowing the rocket was ueber-fat without a scale.

As an RSO, after seeing this rocket not fly right at all on a the motor for which it was designed, I would have some questions ready when he showed back up with the same model ready to fly again. After a 100% failure rate with one rocket, I would have a discussion with him, and be very critical of any rocket he brought to the table in the future.

It's not just a safety thing either. I know I keep harping on this, but the guy is LEVEL THREE. He should know better. But there he is, in our NAR sacntioned magazine, showing his ignorance. Can you think of a reason why the editor did not contact this guy and ask him "What are you DOING?"

It also shows that Sport Rockerty needs a few articles on "The Basics".
 
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Dave:
Ask yourself a simple question:
If the model from this article were to strike a person or property which would suffer the most; Model or person/property?
While a good question to ask, this question alone is not part of the safety code. I am in full agreement that people should build rockets to be safe, rather than bulletproof. However, just because a model is reinforced does not mean that it should not be allowed to fly.

The way I view it is this: Would I allow the rocket to fly if the flier had brought it to me with a G motor? Absolutely. Will a D motor lift it safely? Absolutely. Therefore, there's no reason not to let it fly simply because the flier is using less power.


If we can answer the person or property then we have a problem. The third point presented in the forward of 40yrs of model rocket safety report states simply "our safety record can be directly tied to the fact that we build our models to self-destruct on impact".
I disagree. Our safety record can be directly tied to the fact that very few models have ever directly hit people or property. A great many Estes rockets could cause significant injury if they were to hit someone while ballistic or under power, despite no significant reinforcement. It's true that the reinforcement increases the severity of the injury that any particular model could cause, but as far as I'm concerned, we shouldn't be relying on the rocket to act as a crumple zone. Instead, we should focus on reliable recovery deployment and adequate stability. I would be much more concerned with the author of the article's seeming inability to achieve reliable recovery deployment than I would with his excessive reinforcement of a model rocket.

I think you and everyone can see that this not the case in ANY over-built model rocket. It's been said already the while the use of Fibreglass, carbon fibre and other exotic materials has a place in model rocketry in all its forms, it can easily be carried to extremes as was plainly done in this case. Really the SAFETY issue is the completed build not the models itself in this case. AS an RSO I've refused to let all acrylic models fly for this same reason...they are not Lightweight materials in the application presented.

Personally, I would evaluate it on a case by case basis. Certainly, there are cases when I would turn a rocket down for being too heavy/solid (and some all-acrylic models would probably fit this criterion), but a 5oz Guardian on an Aerotech D simply isn't heavy enough to warrant a rejection. I would probably question the flier as to why they had reinforced the rocket that much, but I would not turn it down when it was capable of a safe flight. If there was a good reason to believe that the flight would be unstable, or that the parachute would not deploy, then I would turn them down, absolutely. That doesn't seem to be the case here though.
Yes; it is my belief that we as a hobby MUST step in to stop the over use of legitamate materials that cuase a Potential public hazard, that is; a potential clear and present danger to life, limb and property of particapents, spectators.
I don't see the "clear and present danger", to be perfectly honest. As I stated above, I'd much rather see a greater emphasis on the reliable deployment of recovery than the obsession some people seem to have with making rockets only to the minimum necessary strength.

Believe me, I'd always rather see someone not overbuild, but I don't see it as a big enough risk to turn them down at the RSO table (unless the motor chosen is inadequate, such as a C6 for the reinforced Guardian in the article).

It's our duty to self-regulate or others will gladly do it for us. As Americans we DO NOT have the right to fly or do whatever we want whenever it suits us. We are guranteed the right to the persuit of happiness.. nothing in that statement says we're going to find or attain it;)
Most of us know the use of fibreglass and other exotic materials is totally unnecessary to building all but the very largest of "Hobby Rockets", while the practice has been "mainstreamed" as perfectly fine to make up for lack of Building/flying/recovery skills as can clearly be seen in the skills or lack there of reported by the article author. Really makes one wonder about the validity of both TRA & the NARS Certification process.

True, it is our job to self regulate, and I have to say, we do enough of it already. As for the validity of the certification process? I'd say it works quite well at what it was meant to do - verify that you are capable of building and flying functional large rockets. Many of the skills involved in an L3 rocket are completely different than those for low power though, and that's where the disconnect comes in (in my opinion).
 
There were several statements made to the effect that the max lift weight for a C6 Estes motor is 113 grams.

Straight from the pony's mouth, here's a link to the Estes Engine Chart .

I lay no claim to being a rocket scientist so my question is this: If the max lift weight for a B6-2 is 127 grams, why is the max lift weight for a C6-7 only 113? Is it the 1 gram lighter weight and half the thrust duration of the smaller motor?
 
I lay no claim to being a rocket scientist so my question is this: If the max lift weight for a B6-2 is 127 grams, why is the max lift weight for a C6-7 only 113? Is it the 1 gram lighter weight and half the thrust duration of the smaller motor?

Simple, the C6-7 has a 7 second delay, assuming it could boost a 100 gram rocket to 350 feet, do you think the 7 second delay will deploy in time? Now the 2 second delay, at 175 feet it may deploy. The actually lofting power is not different, just the delay.
 
Simple, the C6-7 has a 7 second delay, assuming it could boost a 100 gram rocket to 350 feet, do you think the 7 second delay will deploy in time? Now the 2 second delay, at 175 feet it may deploy. The actually lofting power is not different, just the delay.


<prof. higgins> By Jove, I think he's got it! </prof. higgins>
 
<prof. higgins> By Jove, I think he's got it! </prof. higgins>

Why I would like thank the Nobel peace prize assembly for this prestigious award :D .......... I spent most of my Noob rocketeer life looking through the Apogee newsletter archive, lots of great info there ;)
 
True, it is our job to self regulate, and I have to say, we do enough of it already. As for the validity of the certification process? I'd say it works quite well at what it was meant to do - verify that you are capable of building and flying functional large rockets. Many of the skills involved in an L3 rocket are completely different than those for low power though, and that's where the disconnect comes in (in my opinion).

Hmmm... I personally wouldn't trust anyone, L3 or no, that couldn't determine the weight/strength/parachute/recovery tradeoffs necessary to fly an Estes Guardian before it was 'beefed up', let alone afterward, and I would CERTAINLY doubt the capabilities of such a person to know what they were doing with a MUCH more complicated HPR rocket...

THAT is the fundamental issue for me that calls the validity of the entire 'certification process' into question, in my mind anyway... So, you have one successful flight, you're now L1. Have another successful flight with a larger motor, your L2. Jump through a few more 'routine' hoops and have a successful flight, you're L3. Doesn't really prove basic competency or good judgement to me.

Of course I know more than a few highly educated "professional" people who barely know how to tie their shoes as well...

I guess I'm just hopelessly "old school"... RESULTS count to me, not a bunch of fancy "credentials"... OL JR :)

PS. the "results" spoken of in the article really suck and show a basic lack of competency IMHO...
 
Hmmm... I personally wouldn't trust anyone, L3 or no, that couldn't determine the weight/strength/parachute/recovery tradeoffs necessary to fly an Estes Guardian before it was 'beefed up', let alone afterward, and I would CERTAINLY doubt the capabilities of such a person to know what they were doing with a MUCH more complicated HPR rocket...
The skills really aren't comparable though. I agree that an L3 should be able to fly a Guardian safely, but I would also say that just because someone doesn't have a clue when it comes to C motors, it doesn't mean that they can't safely fly Ls.

THAT is the fundamental issue for me that calls the validity of the entire 'certification process' into question, in my mind anyway... So, you have one successful flight, you're now L1. Have another successful flight with a larger motor, your L2. Jump through a few more 'routine' hoops and have a successful flight, you're L3. Doesn't really prove basic competency or good judgement to me.
There is a test that verifies basic theoretical competency with L2, and L3 also has some methods to verify competency. It's true that you could get by up to at least L2 without a tremendous amount of knowledge, but you have to find a balance between safety and difficulty. If the process is excessively difficult, you'll drive a lot of people away.

Of course I know more than a few highly educated "professional" people who barely know how to tie their shoes as well...

I guess I'm just hopelessly "old school"... RESULTS count to me, not a bunch of fancy "credentials"... OL JR :)

PS. the "results" spoken of in the article really suck and show a basic lack of competency IMHO...

I absolutely agree here. I'm just saying that I don't think that there's necessarily a correlation between low power abilities and high power abilities.
 
I absolutely agree here. I'm just saying that I don't think that there's necessarily a correlation between low power abilities and high power abilities.

Exactly, I have LPR abilitys but absolutely No HPR abilitys :D
 
CJL,

Are you saying you don't fly safely?

I was being sarcastic.

The NAR model rocket safety code cited was line item number 1.

That guys rocket parts are light weight, but not when put all together. He doubled the weight of the orignal kit. It becomes, to me, questionable.

You say toemato, I say tomAto.
We both agree this rocket build is not right for this persons experience. The main problem was never addressed. He still had recovery problems and bad motor choice.
It is OUR job to self-regulate at the RSO table, the prep area, the water cooler. It is OUR job to say something when walking past someone's tent and you see them doing something wrong. Help them out or get them some.
Question their practices if it doesn't look right to you. Maybe you'll learn something new.
You're part of the problem if you don't.

In the youtube clip, the rocket I was referring to was the stubby one at the end. And it is relavent to this thread(somewhat) in the fact the rocket was over built and under powered and I didn't let it fly on my watch. That rocket , thank GOD, took a right turn off the pad instead of turning towards the crowd. It left so slow, it would of never triggered a g-switch.

I've turned plenty of flyers away(nicely, with suggestions) because something wasn't right. I want them to have a positive flight. Not rush then through the RSO only to have their rocket shred, or crash, zipper ect.
I usually have gotten a thankyou sometime during the day fo helping them out.
I probably been cussed out too, oh well. It's supossed to be fun and safe(all things considered)
 
Simple, the C6-7 has a 7 second delay, assuming it could boost a 100 gram rocket to 350 feet, do you think the 7 second delay will deploy in time? Now the 2 second delay, at 175 feet it may deploy. The actually lofting power is not different, just the delay.

Let me re-phrase the question.

If a B6-2 has a max loft weight of 127 grams, why does a C6 of ANY delay and has a max lift weight of only 113 grams? In simple terms, why does a smaller motor have a higher max lift weight?
 
Let me re-phrase the question.

If a B6-2 has a max loft weight of 127 grams, why does a C6 of ANY delay and has a max lift weight of only 113 grams? In simple terms, why does a smaller motor have a higher max lift weight?

Because the B6 has just as much liftoff thrust, and a shorter delay?

(It's still a bit puzzling though - I'd think the C6-3 could safely lift any rocket that the B6-2 could)
 
Let me re-phrase the question.

If a B6-2 has a max loft weight of 127 grams, why does a C6 of ANY delay and has a max lift weight of only 113 grams? In simple terms, why does a smaller motor have a higher max lift weight?
Here is my uninformed take on it:

As someone pointed out earlier, drag is the square of velocity, so a rocket that is moving fast has much more drag acting on it than one that is moving slow. Now, if two identical rockets are flown with identical motors loaded with the same propellant but in different amounts, the rocket with more propellant will attain a higher speed than the other rocket because its motor thrusts for a longer interval. An Estes B6 and a C6 are identical in every respect except one - the C6 has more propellant and therefore burns longer. Following motor burnout, the rocket powered by the B6 will coast for a longer interval because it is moving slower than the one powered by the C6 and therefore is experiencing less drag (remember, these are identical rockets). Putting it another way, the faster C6-powered rocket loses its momentum and comes to a halt more quickly than the slower B6-powered rocket. Thus, despite having a motor that burns out sooner, the B6-powered rocket coasts to a higher altitude than its C6-powered twin.

This same phenomenon was brought out in the "A motor" thread elsewhere on this forum: a rocket powered by an A3T will go higher than the same rocket would if it were powered by an A10T. The extra 1 second of delay certainly helps, but the lower drag encountered by the slower-moving A3T is also an important factor, too. The fact that the A3T has a version with a 4 second delay, while the A10T only has a version with a 3 second delay is due to the slower-moving A3T's ability to coast for a longer duration of time.

Well, that's my theory, anyway.

MK
 
Here is my uninformed take on it:

As someone pointed out earlier, drag is the square of velocity, so a rocket that is moving fast has much more drag acting on it than one that is moving slow. Now, if two identical rockets are flown with identical motors loaded with the same propellant but in different amounts, the rocket with more propellant will attain a higher speed than the other rocket because its motor thrusts for a longer interval. An Estes B6 and a C6 are identical in every respect except one - the C6 has more propellant and therefore burns longer. Following motor burnout, the rocket powered by the B6 will coast for a longer interval because it is moving slower than the one powered by the C6 and therefore is experiencing less drag (remember, these are identical rockets).
Sorry, but this isn't quite right. It's true that the faster moving rocket will experience more drag than the slower moving rocket will right at burnout. However, the faster moving rocket will still coast longer and higher.

Look at it this way. At some time after burnout, the faster moving rocket will have slowed down to the same speed as the slower moving rocket started at. Once the faster moving rocket has slowed down to the burnout velocity of the slower one, it will then have a remaining coast time identical to the total coast of the slower one, as it started this period at the same speed (I'm ignoring any effects due to changing atmospheric density with altitude). However, it also had an additional amount of coasting time prior to reaching this point.

Putting it another way, the faster C6-powered rocket loses its momentum and comes to a halt more quickly than the slower B6-powered rocket. Thus, despite having a motor that burns out sooner, the B6-powered rocket coasts to a higher altitude than its C6-powered twin.
Again, for the reasons explained above, this simply isn't true. An identical rocket launched with a C6 and a B6 will always go higher and coast longer on the C6.

This same phenomenon was brought out in the "A motor" thread elsewhere on this forum: a rocket powered by an A3T will go higher than the same rocket would if it were powered by an A10T. The extra 1 second of delay certainly helps, but the lower drag encountered by the slower-moving A3T is also an important factor, too. The fact that the A3T has a version with a 4 second delay, while the A10T only has a version with a 3 second delay is due to the slower-moving A3T's ability to coast for a longer duration of time.

Well, that's my theory, anyway.

MK

Yes, but that's a separate issue entirely. The A3 has the same amount of power as the A10, but spread out over a longer duration. This means its burnout velocity will be lower, but the burnout altitude will be significantly higher. Given an identical rocket, and ignoring the problem of available delays, an A10 will always have a longer coast than an A3, but it will likely reach a lower altitude due to the higher drag losses (basically, by the time it reaches the altitude at which the A3 burned out, it will be traveling slower than the A3 was at burnout. Total coast time is still greater though).

The longer delay on the A3 is more likely due to the fact that it was designed for lighter rockets, while the A10 was designed as a heavy lifter (which therefore needed shorter delays).
 
Hey, I tried. So what's then answer to old_dude's question, then? Oh wait, that's right, you said that you don't know.

You are really making me start to doubt my whole understanding of the basic laws of physics. :(

Because the B6 has just as much liftoff thrust, and a shorter delay?

(It's still a bit puzzling though - I'd think the C6-3 could safely lift any rocket that the B6-2 could)


MK
 
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Some more oddities from the Estes Engine Chart:

The 1/3A3-2T has the same maximum lift weight as the 1/2A6-2.
The C6-3 and C6-5 have the same maximum lift weight.

But my favourite has to be that the B6-4 has the same maximum lift weight as the C6-3. Someone please explain to me how a motor with less propellant and longer delay can safely lift the same maximum mass as a motor with twice the propellant and a shorter delay. :)

And then there's the E9-4, which apparently has a higher maximum lift weight then the D12-3. True, the E9 has more propellant, but it provides both lower average thrust and lower initial thrust spike, which is why the E9-P correctly has a lower maximum lift weight than the D11-P.
 
I went back and looked, and it appears as though Estes has been making the same mistake on their motor charts for the past 41 years! I even checked the old Centuri catalogues – SAME THING! How could we have missed this for so long? It MUST be some sort of conspiracy! Estes and Centuri were in cahoots! Defying the laws of physics! QUICK! Somebody contact the Physics Police!

OR… Maybe the motor manufacturers know more about their motors than we do. An unlikely scenario, I realize. Time to bust out Occum’s Razor, I guess.

Although I have not yet completed my research into rockets, the past 30 yrs of data has shown that following the manufacture’s recommendations for motor use to be a wise, if overly-cautious path to follow.

And, by way of bringing us back on topic, I didn’t catch which C6 the author used on his up-armored Guardian. I gave him the benefit of the doubt and figured it was a C6-3/5. In this case his rocket was somewhat underpowered. If it was a C6-7, it was very underpowered.
 
Getting hit by ANY sort of model rocket moving at a typically HIGH velocity IS going to damage human flesh, period. I for one have ZERO interest in what seems to be the mamby-pamby pursuit of society over the last twenty or so years, which has been to try to make EVERYTHING uber-safe. BOOOOOOORRRRRRRRIIIINNNNNGGGGGGGGGGGG !
Some activities are just inherently dangerous. That in my book ADDS TO, not detracts from, the excitement of the activity.
People just need to come to grips with reality that certain activities (like driving, riding motorcycles, rocketry, racing any vehicle type, etc.) have an inherent danger and they should just SUCK IT UP AND DEAL WITH IT.
The mamby-pamby obsession currently that PERVADES society is UBER-ANNOYING.
I grew up in the days of good-old-fashioned LEADED fuel, Zero seat belt usage, no catalytic converters, no helmet laws, no ABS, no air bags or child safety seats, toy guns and BB guns for ALL, toys that actually cast figurines of MOLTEN LEAD, all boys with dirt-bike motorcycles by age ten, and parents that were actually free to PARENT without hardly ANY sort of stinkin' gubmint intrusion. You know what ? The vast majority of us managed to survive without all the safety-hippies trying to tame down everything. Kids had injuries and broken bones, and sometimes worse, but we all ACCEPTED the blame for our OWN actions and did not expect it to be someone elses fault.
 
I went back and looked, and it appears as though Estes has been making the same mistake on their motor charts for the past 41 years! I even checked the old Centuri catalogues &#8211; SAME THING! How could we have missed this for so long? It MUST be some sort of conspiracy! Estes and Centuri were in cahoots! Defying the laws of physics! QUICK! Somebody contact the Physics Police!
What's this "we" business? ;) I spotted it years ago and I'd be very surprised if I was the only one.
OR&#8230; Maybe the motor manufacturers know more about their motors than we do. An unlikely scenario, I realize. Time to bust out Occum&#8217;s Razor, I guess.
According to the data from the same Engine Chart, the B6-4 has a lower maximum thrust and half the thrust duration of the C6-3. The classifications of "B6" and "C6" indicate that they both have an average thrust of 6N. So either the classification is wrong, the thrust values are wrong or the maximum lift weights are wrong.
And, by way of bringing us back on topic, I didn&#8217;t catch which C6 the author used on his up-armored Guardian. I gave him the benefit of the doubt and figured it was a C6-3/5. In this case his rocket was somewhat underpowered. If it was a C6-7, it was very underpowered.
Agreed. Given that the Guardian when built as stock is suitable for a C6, the overbuilt one was bound to be seriously underpowered on a C6. Granted that I'm looking at this from hindsight, but if I were doing RSO duty and someone presented me with a reinforced, heavier version of a rocket which would normally fly on a C6-5, and declared that there was a C6 in it, I'd want to be sure that it was a C6-3. And if the would-be flyer can't tell me exactly what's in his rocket, it isn't going onto the pad until he can.

As for the problem of overbuilding, it seems to me that the material used to build the body and fins is much less important than that used to build the nose cone because if the rocket comes down ballistic then it's the nose which will hit first and do the damage. I wouldn't think that a rocket with a fibreglass body and G10 fins is much more dangerous than a rocket with a paper tube body, balsa fins and a plastic nose cone stuffed with epoxy.
 
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Getting hit by ANY sort of model rocket moving at a typically HIGH velocity IS going to damage human flesh, period. I for one have ZERO interest in what seems to be the mamby-pamby pursuit of society over the last twenty or so years, which has been to try to make EVERYTHING uber-safe. BOOOOOOORRRRRRRRIIIINNNNNGGGGGGGGGGGG !
Some activities are just inherently dangerous. That in my book ADDS TO, not detracts from, the excitement of the activity.
People just need to come to grips with reality that certain activities (like driving, riding motorcycles, rocketry, racing any vehicle type, etc.) have an inherent danger and they should just SUCK IT UP AND DEAL WITH IT.
The mamby-pamby obsession currently that PERVADES society is UBER-ANNOYING.
I grew up in the days of good-old-fashioned LEADED fuel, Zero seat belt usage, no catalytic converters, no helmet laws, no ABS, no air bags or child safety seats, toy guns and BB guns for ALL, toys that actually cast figurines of MOLTEN LEAD, all boys with dirt-bike motorcycles by age ten, and parents that were actually free to PARENT without hardly ANY sort of stinkin' gubmint intrusion. You know what ? The vast majority of us managed to survive without all the safety-hippies trying to tame down everything. Kids had injuries and broken bones, and sometimes worse, but we all ACCEPTED the blame for our OWN actions and did not expect it to be someone elses fault.

If you don't use a seat belt, you're the one who dies. If you build a small rocket out of FG et al, and it hits someone, you're not the one with massive internal injuries or a hole through their stomach. Call us mamby-pamby safety-hippes all day, but we still take pride in being sane, flying safe rockets, and avoiding injuries. Before the founding of the NAR in 1957, 1 out of 7 amateur rocketeers died. Since then, in 53 years, there's been a few burns, and a few broekn limbs when people violated the code and fell out of trees. That's because we build rockets of of reasonable materials and we include effective recovery devices (the article writer's true problem).

If you don't want to build safe rockets, then get out of rocketry. Those of us who do want to keep it legal, and that means flying safe. We accept that there is a small inherent danger in rocketry, and we do everythign we can to reduce it. That doesn't mean we don't fly rockets that could kill people, we just learn how to fly them safe and we don't make them more bullet-like than we have to.

If you have something useful and constructive and calm to say, then say it. If you don't, stop whining about people who care about the safety of themselves and others and turn the bloody channel.
 
According to the data from the same Engine Chart, the B6-4 has a lower maximum thrust and half the thrust duration of the C6-3. The classifications of "B6" and "C6" indicate that they both have an average thrust of 6N. So either the classification is wrong, the thrust values are wrong or the maximum lift weights are wrong.

This was my point and the reason I asked the question.

I'm concerned about a "Rock It" airframe I built where I went crazy with the stone texture paint and clearcoat. I weighed it after reading this discussion and discovered it is clearly over the max limit weight limit. Sadly it appears to be destined for display duty only...a lesson learned.
 
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