Looking Into MPR got lots of questions about Motors

[nute]

Hey everyone!
I've been building my collection of Estes LPR rockets for a few years now and I want something more. I think I'll step up to estes new PSII rockets, but I've got some questions about motors.
Here are some of them:

1) I'm starting high school in the fall, so price is a huge deal to me. I won't fly my MPR rockets a whole lot (probably only at club launches) so should I stick to single use motors?
2) what are some of the cheaper 29mm motors out there (Aerotech, Estes, or otherwise)
3) Is there any way to avoid the $25 hazmat shipping fee?

 

[Rex R]

RMS is cheaper in the long run. it has gone up to (when last I heard $27.50) buy from your local motor vender.
rex

 

[KenRico]

AeroTech buddy! Wildman has me spoiled with $10 G reloads! Except for 'F's (and G138T) alomst alll the 29mm AT reloads are NON-hazmat all the way up to an i200 !

You will need one of these AeroTech Hobbyline 29 40/120 cases : https://www.wildmanrocketry.com/ProductDetail.aspx?product=2748

It will work with these motors: https://www.wildmanrocketry.com/ShowProducts.aspx?Class=82&Sub=85&Sub1=87

If you want to get fancy order all with the longest delay and buy the drill tool to take it down , then you don't have to figure out what the best delay is before you ORDER a motor - let alone fly it.

Kenny

 

[samb]

1) I'm starting high school in the fall, so price is a huge deal to me. I won't fly my MPR rockets a whole lot (probably only at club launches) so should I stick to single use motors?

I'd say yes because the saving from a reload case comes with multiple flights over time. It's doesn't take that long for most of us who get bit by the AP bug. How much would you guess " ...won't fly my MPR rockets a whole lot..." is ?


2) what are some of the cheaper 29mm motors out there (Aerotech, Estes, or otherwise)

The cheapest single use are the Estes available up till now at Hobby Lobby (w/ 40% coupon). There is some anecdotal evidence that at least some HL's are scaling back their rockets merchandise so YMMV.

3) Is there any way to avoid the $25 hazmat shipping fee?

Well... no. The online vendors are required by USDOT ( I think ) to charge based on the propellant weight of the motors they ship. Here is some background info:

https://www.nar.org/pdf/shipping_rocket_motors.pdf

Some alternatives are:

Buy local

Create a larger online order, maybe a group order. The hazmat is charge once per shipment, I believe.



One thing you might do is contact the club folks, or better yet, go to a meeting. Deals or trades may be worked out to get you up in the air.

 

[blackbrandt]

Somewhere on here, someone did some calculations that showed a reload case pays for itself in 6 flights.
To avoid a HAZMAT fee, just buy at a launch. As samb said, another good option is a bulk order. That way, the shipping is not as significant.




Matt

 

[JPVegh]

Going RMS is the best idea if you plan to stick with model rocketry. That said, you are about to enter a time in your life when friends, young ladies, academics, and sports will take up a good portion of your time, YMMV.

My RMS motors have paid for themselves many times over but I have had them for 20 years now.

 

[scsager]

Here is a break-even comparison - note AT Econo-Jets require no hazmat while AT 29mm "F" reloads DO require hazmat.
The break-even point is 16-18 motors

Real life cost - at Hobbylinc.com
18 Aerotech F40 reloads and one 29-40/120 motor case (with shipping and hazmat) = $252.05
18 Aerotech F42 single use motors (with shipping - no hazmat required) = $252.45

If you buy at a launch to avoid the hazmat fee...
Cost from Wildman -
16 Aerotech F40 reloads and one 29-40/120 motor case = $215
16 Aerotech F42 single use motors = $207

 

[nute]

Thanks, I've heard similar things and I'll try to contact some people in the club i'm joining (attending my first club launch on Friday) I asked my local hobby shop today, and they don't carry anything over Estes E9

 

[nute]

That information may have just won me over to reloadable motors! I'll have to see how things shape up at launches with the "Radical Rocketeers" but I may only be able to fly the MPR fleet once or twice a month just because I don't have the money or field to fly them much more often! Ironically enough, I would like to use F motors the most, but G's sound like fun! Another question:how much assembly is associated with RMS motors, and about how long does it take to assemble the motor? Is it something i would be able to do at a launch and then fly it later that afternoon?

 

[nute]

Also, will these Aerotech motors work ok with The estes kit i'm looking into (The PSII Argent)?

 

[nute]

Thanks! I should be able to launch my MPRs that many times in the foreseeable future, maybe more!
A quick question: what's the deal with Econo-Jets?

 

[DizWolf]

Reloads are great. However he's under 18 and can't get or use them. Could have a parent do it and build it, but what fun is that?

The aerotech ecojet motors are the way to go. No hazmat shipping, no age requirement. F20W, F23FJ, F27R, and F42T. come in two packs, and cover a good variety of propellants.

https://www.siriusrocketry.biz/ishop/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=36_49

 

[nute]

I think a combination may be the way to go. for F launches econojet, and for G launches at places with larger fields an RMS system, but you make a good point, DizWolf, about the age restriction.

 

[Rex R]

well since Estes is selling relabeled Aerotech motors...they should work well for you, finding your Argent after sending it up on a G is a different story . building RMS motors in the field, figure about 5-10 minutes to let it cool down (usually not a problem at a club launch) about 15 minutes to field clean and reload. the Argent should do well on F motors (I would suggest an F26-6 for a 1st flight).
rex

 

[nute]

Thanks for the time info. I was actually thinking of an Estes F26-FJ for the first flight as well! The club I'm looking at joining is the "Radical Rocketeers" here:https://radrocketeers.org So i'm not overly worried about recovery, they've got a huge recovery field!

 

[Rex R]

heh, I've seen an Argent launch w/ an F26...trust me the motor will be fairly cool by the time you get back (unless you're launching in a no-wind condition...even then it shouldn't be that hot), make Sure there is No Glue inside the motor mount, or you'll destroy the rocket trying to get the motor out(seen it happen), the Argent flys very nicely on the F's.
rex

 

[bill_s]

Here is a break-even comparison - note AT Econo-Jets require no hazmat while AT 29mm "F" reloads DO require hazmat.
The break-even point is 16-18 motors

Real life cost - at Hobbylinc.com
18 Aerotech F40 reloads and one 29-40/120 motor case (with shipping and hazmat) = $252.05
18 Aerotech F42 single use motors (with shipping - no hazmat required) = $252.45

If you buy at a launch to avoid the hazmat fee...
Cost from Wildman -
16 Aerotech F40 reloads and one 29-40/120 motor case = $215
16 Aerotech F42 single use motors = $207

The F42T is not a match for the F40W reload. Econojets aren't hazmat because they're not over 30 g propellant, typ. 55 N-s. The F40 is 80 N-s and white lightning as a bonus. If you go G size then the SU motors are the Hazmat and reloads are not. Except for Hazmat, reloads are cheaper but not overwhelmingly. It can be good to just launch a couple of times first.

BTW you're supposed to be 18 to buy all of these, or to handle reloading.

 

[nute]

Since I plan on just doing recreational launches, i figure i'll give a few things a try over the next year or so, and figure out what works best for my budget, but the information gained here is invaluable! Keep it coming!

 

[Onebadhawk]

The F39T Aerotech reloads for the 24mm hardware comes in a 3 pack...........
Don't hold me to this but I don't think you need a hazmat fee to ship them.......
They're a fantastic bang for the buck.........
Teddy

 

[nute]

If you're right, then that would be great! I haven't been able to find anywhere where they ship w/o hazmat. If you have a link could you post it?
And (if you don't mind). Would. You be willing to give me some information about your personal experience w/ the rAdical rocketeers? ( So I know what to expect on Sarurday)I'm looking into joining them, and will be attending the lunch on the 13th.
Thanks!

 

[qquake2k]

If you're right, then that would be great! I haven't been able to find anywhere where they ship w/o hazmat. If you have a link could you post it?
And (if you don't mind). Would. You be willing to give me some information about your personal experience w/ the rAdical rocketeers? ( So I know what to expect on Sarurday)I'm looking into joining them, and will be attending the lunch on the 13th.
Thanks!

The F39 reloads don't incur the hazmat fee. However, they're 24mm, so you'd need the 24/40 case and a 24mm-29mm adapter to fly them in the Estes PSII kits. They come in 3-packs, and so are less expensive, as is the 24/40 case. For someone on a budget, that might be the way to go. 24mm reloads come in D's, E's, and F's. I would say an F39 would give the Argent a very nice ride.

https://www.hobbylinc.com/cgi-bin/s8.cgi?str_s=f39&ss=1

https://www.hobbylinc.com/htm/loc/locmma1.htm

 

[qquake2k]

Here are my thoughts on reloads vs. single use for MPR. Like most people, when I started flying MPR, I started with single use. When I finally started using reloads, I wished I had started using them sooner. Even with the cost of hardware, it doesn't take long to break even, then to start saving money. I like the different propellants that are available, and I really like the convenience of being able to buy all my reloads with the longest delay, then drilling them to whatever delay I need. Using an adapter will allow you to fly both 24mm and 29mm reloads in the same 29mm rocket. Loading a motor doesn't take long once you've done a few, and cleaning the case is easy as long as you clean it while it's still warm. Baby wipes are magical for cleaning the residue out of the cases when they're warm. That's all I ever use.

And by the way, the G53 Fast Jack is my favorite all time MPR reload.

 

[nute]

That's good information to have. It's a shame that this is so complicated! There are so many options at so many different prices from so many different places with so many different shipping costs! as far as the 24mm motors go, that might be a good alternative to "Econojets". Does anyone know how they compare power-wise to Econojets, and does anyone have an openrocket file if the Argent just so i can get some altitude estimates based on different motor sizes?

 

[Onebadhawk]

This is a list of mid power Aerotech loads that do not require hazmat fees.

https://www.redarrowhobbies.com/aerotech_su_rocket_engines.htm

The list looks up to date because there are "new" items there.
Why isn't the F39T on this list.
Why is the only 3 pack an E motor.
You should definitely look into this.
The 3 pack of F39's is just about the best bang for the buck around in mid power.
If Aerotech discontinued them, you can go to places like Wildman Hobbies, I bet he has some.

Here is the list of hardware.

https://www.redarrowhobbies.com/aerotech_su_rocket_engines.htm

The price you see of $99 for the 3 pack of hardware ( 18mm, 24mm, 29mm )
I believe is wrong. I'm pretty sure the price of this went up to $140 or $150.

https://www.wildmanrocketry.com/ShowProducts.aspx?Class=380&Sub=817

https://www.wildmanrocketry.com/ShowProducts.aspx?Class=82&Sub=97&Sub1=98

If you look at Wild mans prices, I think these are all 3 packs.
And his prices are great.
If this is all correct, they are discontinuing the 3 packs and Wildman has great prices on a great assortment of loads,,,,,,,

Teddy

 

[nute]

That is a good recommendation, I might just have to splurge, and buy the rocket, a 29 mm RMS/40-120 casing, a 24 mm 24/40 casing, an adapter, and a reload or 2 for a total price of $160 to launch it thrice on an F38, and once on a G76. will i need to make any adjustments to the Argent itself to be able to use a wide variety of motors (those mentioned above plus the estes motors and maybe an econojet at some point)?
Btw are those pictures attached a G? they look huge!

 

[qquake2k]

Here is an Open Rocket file with an F39. It sims at 730ft.

View attachment Estes Argent.ork

 

[Onebadhawk]

Radical Rocketeers-------------
A 5000 ft waiver at every launch.........
Were trying to get 2 launches in per month in July and August........
Great field..........I've walked it ( Epic recoveries ), it's huge..........
Great location...........not too far for most...........
Great bunch of guys............

Ya just cain't beat it..................

Teddy

 

[nute]

Wow Thanks! I will look into different motor impulses. the three packs at Wildman look cheaper than other places. is Wildman a physical store, or are they just online?
It is good to connect with someone else associated with Radical Rocketeers!

 

[qquake2k]

Radical Rocketeers-------------
A 5000 ft waiver at every launch.........
Were trying to get 2 launches in per month in July and August........
Great field..........I've walked it ( Epic recoveries ), it's huge..........
Great location...........not too far for most...........
Great bunch of guys............

Ya just cain't beat it..................

Teddy

Do you guys have an onsite vendor?

 

[nute]

Yeah I saw! I'm hoping to attend the launch on the 13th! do people sell motors there often? When i finally do get some MPR stuff will i be able to get some motors there for a reasonable price? I assume there will be knowledgeable people like you guys there...