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accooper

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OK, I am old, I was there when Vern Estes was a boy, well not quite that old, but old enough. So please show some kindness to this old rocketeer.

What is CA? Some kinda glue? Like Super Glue? What is Thin, Medium, Thick?

Does it work with paper and balsa?

Is it stronger than Epoxy?

TIA

Andrew The Old Guy From Texas
 
CA (cyanoacrylate) is a type of adhesive, much like super glue. In fact, most super glues, such as Krazy Glue, are CA based. According to the wikipedia: it's got a fairly tight bond, and sets up very quickly. It is very adept at bonding items with non-porous surfaces together, but it's also very good at bonding skin to things.

It comes in different thicknesses, from super thin to fairly thick, and can be picked up at just about every hobby shop and most home improvement stores.
 
If it is like superglue is it cheaper to buy it in say the 4 oz size?

TIA
Andrew
 
I didn't know this:

"Reaction with cotton

Applying cyanoacrylate to materials made of cotton or wool (such as cotton swabs, cotton balls, and certain yarns or fabrics) results in a powerful, rapid exothermic reaction. The heat released may cause minor burns, and if enough cyanoacrylate is used, the reaction is capable of setting the cotton product in question on fire, as well as releasing additional irritating vapor in the form of white smoke.[3]

Material Safety Data Sheets for cyanoacrylate instruct users not to wear cotton or wool clothing, especially cotton gloves, when applying or handling cyanoacrylates.[4]"

From Wikipedia
 
I didn't know this:

"Reaction with cotton

Applying cyanoacrylate to materials made of cotton or wool (such as cotton swabs, cotton balls, and certain yarns or fabrics) results in a powerful, rapid exothermic reaction. The heat released may cause minor burns, and if enough cyanoacrylate is used, the reaction is capable of setting the cotton product in question on fire, as well as releasing additional irritating vapor in the form of white smoke.[3]

Material Safety Data Sheets for cyanoacrylate instruct users not to wear cotton or wool clothing, especially cotton gloves, when applying or handling cyanoacrylates.[4]"

From Wikipedia

It is also good for crime scene investigations...
https://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/feneric/cyanoacrylate.html
 
What is CA?

If you just want to experiment a little, the cheapo kind of CA that they sell in the dollar stores works OK for many applications. That's the kind that comes in a set of foil tubes ( with a tiny fraction of an ounce in each tube) on a cardboard blister-pack, often three little tubes for a dollar. One tube is often enough to get a small job done and breaking the seal on one tube at a time helps keep the rest of the stuff a little more fresh.

The hobby-shop kind is definitely better quality, and may be more economical in the long run (I've never done the cost-per-ounce comparison numbers), but leaves you with a more expensive bottle between uses that you have to handle carefully or it will be wasted (and then it definitely costs much more!). Seal the bottle inside a ziplock and put the whole thing in your 'fridge to make it last a little longer (include a good label in the bag so no one else in the house thinks it's some sort of food item).

I like to use CA on low-power rockets to soak into the front edge of the body tube to make it tougher and more durable. You will have to sand the tube lightly after the CA cures because all the little fibers in the cardboard lift up and "freeze" in that position---you need to sand the inside and outside smooth again.

I also use it on the opposite end, around the motor mount, where inserting and removing motors can cause some wear and tear.

CA will definitely work on paper and cardboard, but it has the characteristic of turning brittle after it cures, especially as it ages. (It is kind of like epoxy in this respect.) You can use it for structural joints in low-power and mid-power rockets, but I prefer to use white glues (Elmers) and yellow glues (Titebond).

And as far as being old, my kids have accused me of being there to help Noah build his ark.
 
I'm one of those Old schoolers as well LOL! I remember holding those elmers white glue "Double Glue Joint" models. Nothing wrong with those construction techniques today either, they are still just as good or better then the newer methods for MODEL Rockets IMHO.

That being said: CA's are very useful for quick holding applications, tacking on fins, or building light weight short term type competition models.

It's major down side is it become extremely brittle over a very short period of time. Sometimes less then a year depending on the brand.

Best CA product i've had the pleasure of using is PRATT Hobbies USGold. My favorite combination of value to performance CA is Zap medium CA.

Once opened the adhesive picks up moisture from the air, which over a SHORT time hardens it. Keeping the containers Closed when not in use is key to keeping them for curing in the bottle. Thin CA becomes Thick in a very short period if not kept closed. I've learned over time to keep the bottle in a zip-loc baggie when not in use. Since starting this practice, I haven't lost a bottle or had it thicken on me.

CA's are somewhat expensive when compared to elmers or other Glues but CA is an adhesive not a glue. the different viscosities can be problematic. I used to buy all three, but I've now settled on medium and buy in 4oz and larger refills to get the cost down a little;)
Generally if I'm building with CA it's going to have epoxy fillets to reinforce those joints. It's generally not a good material for high stress applications except as mentioned on short term competition type models.

Hope this helps a little.

CA-sm_Stored in a zip-lock bag_10-17-06.jpg
 
You have never dripped thin CA on your jeans???? Man that burns:blush::blush::eek:
I didn't know this:

"Reaction with cotton

Applying cyanoacrylate to materials made of cotton or wool (such as cotton swabs, cotton balls, and certain yarns or fabrics) results in a powerful, rapid exothermic reaction. The heat released may cause minor burns, and if enough cyanoacrylate is used, the reaction is capable of setting the cotton product in question on fire, as well as releasing additional irritating vapor in the form of white smoke.[3]

Material Safety Data Sheets for cyanoacrylate instruct users not to wear cotton or wool clothing, especially cotton gloves, when applying or handling cyanoacrylates.[4]"

From Wikipedia
 
CA glue, like any new tool, can take some getting used to.

I like to use a 1/2" length of Teflon tubing on the nozzle tip. When it clogs (it will eventually) I clear it by running a .016 guitar B string down the tubing.
After you use the glue, squeeze the bottle and blow some air (and that last small drop of CA) out of the tubing. I usually hold a paper towel over the tip to catch that glue in the tube.
When the tip goes bad, cut off another length and replace it.

Don't use CA to set knots. It will run up the shock cord or shroud line and harden it. CA glue is a capillary action, one small drop will spread out.

If the two parts to be glued don't match up well (if you can see light at the joint) the thinner CAs won't work and fill the gap. Get out the sanding block and square it up.

If you choose to run CA down a fin root edge / body tube joint, start at the top of the fin joint and work to the rear.
Squeeze the bottle lightly and you'll see the glue coming down the Teflon tube. Be ready for the first drop.
When the drop is on the joint STOP SQUEEZING THE BOTTLE! Drag that single drop down the root edge joint using the Teflon tip.
Always keep a paper towel handy when using CA.

I'll initially use a little white glue to get all fins into position. Then, use CA as explained above and follow with white glue fillets over the top.

The big mistake many make is to use too much CA glue or any glue for that matter.

Super Glues do last longer in the refrigerator. I've never had mine harden up in the bottle.
 
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OK, I am old, I was there when Vern Estes was a boy, well not quite that old, but old enough. So please show some kindness to this old rocketeer.

What is CA? Some kinda glue? Like Super Glue? What is Thin, Medium, Thick?

Does it work with paper and balsa?

Is it stronger than Epoxy?

TIA

Andrew The Old Guy From Texas

No stupid questions here... :)

Yes, CA is a type of glue, SUPER GLUE. You can get it in various viscosities, ultra-thin, thin, medium, thick, gel, etc. If you've ever used "Crazy Glue" or "Super Glue" around the house, you're probably pretty familiar with it, as CA (cyano-acrylate) is the active ingredient. It was originally developed as a 'wound closing' glue to seal wounds, IIRC. You can get REALLY GOOD CA glue at most hobby shops, in various 'house brands' and most glue mfg's make their own version, like "Hot Stuff", etc. I use the "thin" in the pink bottle and "medium" in the yellow bottle from Hobby Lobby, as it's MUCH more affordable than the stuff at the local hobby shop (LHS).

CA is good for some things, and not for others. Most of the CA I use is the thin pink bottle stuff, because I soak it into balsa fins, nosecones, and transitions to harden them. Thin CA will soak right into balsa wood, and hardens within a few seconds or so, turning the balsa wood into something more akin to a 'composite' material, making the balsa a lot tougher and more ding resistant than it is naturally. Be aware, though, to do this outside and stand upwind, because CA gives off some strong fumes that will make you tear up badly if you don't. Not a big deal, but don't try it indoors... it's about like chopping up a whole bag of onions! Also, the CA tends to 'raise' whatever balsa dust and loose wood fibers are on the surface, and harden them into a 'grit' that you'll have to sand off, but it's not difficult to do, and the balsa fins are MUCH stronger and more ding resistant, so I recommend it. Also, I wouldn't apply it to the shoulders of the nosecones or transitions, because it does SLIGHTLY increase the diameter, making them a tighter fit in the tubes. I'd also leave the fin root edges undone, so the wood glue can penetrate the balsa and give the fins a better bond to the tube.

CA is good for SOME stuff building rockets, but not ALL, by a longshot! A lot of folks use CA to glue their fins on, but I certainly wouldn't recommend it. CA has VERY GOOD strength in TENSION-- remember the guy hanging by the hardhat glued to the beam in the TV commercials?? BUT, CA has poor strength in SHEAR forces, the kind that fins are typically subjected to when the tip hits the ground first during recovery. CA tends to be more brittle than most other glues, and only gets MORE brittle with age, so the older your rocket is, the more likely CA glue is to shear off... For fins, motor mounts, and shock cords, I'd recommend white or yellow wood glue, as they remain a bit more 'flexible' when cured than CA, and will 'give a little' when the fin hits the ground rather than just popping like CA can. Not that wood glue is bulletproof, but it's just better than CA in those conditions.

Also, don't get CA anywhere near your shock cord or parachute lines, as it does bad things to them...

For gluing details on scalers and stuff, it's pretty good. As a general rocket construction adhesive, I recommend against it.

Epoxy is essentially two part plastic-- resin and hardener, and when combined chemically react to form plastic. Good for some stuff, and generally the adhesive of choice in high MPR and HPR, but not so much for LPR. Some folks use it for fillets and stuff like that, but it's heavy and kinda overkill. I recommend Titebond Moulding and Trim glue, sold in the hardware stores by the Titebond and Elmer's yellow wood glues. It's thickened sort of white glue that will not run, goes on very smooth, easily contoured with a wet fingertip, and cleans up with soapy water. Unlike standard white or yellow glue fillets, it stays put, won't run to one end of the fillet or the other, or run down the side or end of the tube like regular white or yellow glue will sometimes do, and it makes GORGEOUS fillets-- every bit as good as epoxy fillets, which require you to wear gloves to do, since epoxy shouldn't get on your bare skin, because over time you'll become allergic to it. Also you don't waste as much as you do with epoxy. The fillets dry clear and hard enough to sand, but a bit flexible like white glue (not like concrete like epoxy tends to harden up as it cures).

One good thing about CA is that you can get "kickers" that will harden it almost instantly. CA cures by reacting with moisture in the air and materials, and kicker greatly accelerates the process. Be careful with CA though, because you can EASILY glue yourself to the rocket, glue your fingers together, etc. CA can get rather warm as it cures, too, so be careful of that.

Hope this helps! OL JR :)
 
I keep mine in a mason jar sealed tightly with a couple little descant bags thrown in for good measure. That definitely extended the life. I only buy the 1/2 oz bottles in super thin (really good for getting every where but where you want it) and gap filling. Mostly I only use it on non-paper/wood joints and to fix things. I fly MMX through E and wood glue is my go to glue, unless I have a special application.
 
I guess not, but you can bet that today I am going put some CA on a Q-tip...

I do that all the time when using CA to seal basswood fins, even some plywood ones. Using a Q-tip I mean. I just dip the Q-tip into the bottle of thin CA and apply it to the fin. If the temps are cooler, no problem. I can do both sides of the fin with one Q-tip before the CA cures on the Q-tip. In warmer temps it cures quicker on the Q-tip and it does smoke. I get only one sideof a fin done before it becomes a little white rock. But I've never had one burst into flames before! :y:
 
Andrew,

Where are you in Texas? There are several NAR and TRA sections/clubs. If you find one close to you, they could help you out with any questions. Sometimes a "hands 0n" approach is more valuable then a forum.
I second the dollar store CA for some applications. For serious work I have been using CA from Mercury Adhesives. Their containers do not clog like the ones from Hobby Lobby's brand. Other folks swear by the Bob Smith line, which is often relabled by other vendors.

Chas
 
CA (cyanoacrylate) is a type of adhesive, much like super glue. In fact, most super glues, such as Krazy Glue, are CA based. According to the wikipedia: it's got a fairly tight bond, and sets up very quickly. It is very adept at bonding items with non-porous surfaces together, but it's also very good at bonding skin to things.

It comes in different thicknesses, from super thin to fairly thick, and can be picked up at just about every hobby shop and most home improvement stores.

Actually the brand Super Glue IS simply CA. As is the competitor Krazy Glue.

https://www.supergluecorp.com/history.html
 
I put CA on a Q-tip, nothing happened.

Many (most?) q-tips aren't cotton anymore. I remember needing some that specifically were cotton, and the ones in the company 1st aid kit were the only cotton ones I could find.
I wonder if cotton balls really are cotton anymore? Prolly a cotton "blend"
 
Many (most?) q-tips aren't cotton anymore. I remember needing some that specifically were cotton, and the ones in the company 1st aid kit were the only cotton ones I could find.
I wonder if cotton balls really are cotton anymore? Prolly a cotton "blend"

This was a real Q-Tip, supposedly 100% cotton in the cushioned tip. Must not be much of a threat anyway because I have never heard any reports about cotton and CA.
 
A friend of mine was out flying model airplanes. He had a bad landing and went to his car where he had a 2oz bottle of thin CA and made the repair out on the field. He recapped the bottle and stuck it in his pocket. While driving home he felt his leg getting warm. He stuck his left hand into his left pocket to try to pull the bottle of glue out. No luck.. the bottle was glued into his pants and his pants to his leg. In the process he squeezed the bottle which gave him a handful of glue. He pulled his hand out of his pocket and put it back over the steering wheel so only his wrist touched the wheel (not wanting to glue himself to the car. He reached across with his right hand to try and stop the leak and in the process glued his right hand into his pocket... He was now driving home in a stick shift car with no right hand and a club for a left hand. He got home and had to stand by his car (he was unable to get the seatbelt un looped from around his arm) while his roomate filled his pants pocket with a bottle of nail polish revover. After about an hour he was free... I felt sooooo bad for how long I laughed when he told me the story.
 
A friend of mine was out flying model airplanes. He had a bad landing and went to his car where he had a 2oz bottle of thin CA and made the repair out on the field. He recapped the bottle and stuck it in his pocket. While driving home he felt his leg getting warm. He stuck his left hand into his left pocket to try to pull the bottle of glue out. No luck.. the bottle was glued into his pants and his pants to his leg. In the process he squeezed the bottle which gave him a handful of glue. He pulled his hand out of his pocket and put it back over the steering wheel so only his wrist touched the wheel (not wanting to glue himself to the car. He reached across with his right hand to try and stop the leak and in the process glued his right hand into his pocket... He was now driving home in a stick shift car with no right hand and a club for a left hand. He got home and had to stand by his car (he was unable to get the seatbelt un looped from around his arm) while his roomate filled his pants pocket with a bottle of nail polish revover. After about an hour he was free... I felt sooooo bad for how long I laughed when he told me the story.


Hehehehe... PICS??? LOL:) OL JR :)
 
I guess not, but you can bet that today I am going put some CA on a Q-tip...

So we are all basically mad scientists at heart:p:p Thought I was the only one.:roll:


For Andrew; I think it worth mentioning here that Acetone (nail polish remover) will desolve CA should you get it on your skin.
 
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