CTI Discussion Thread

[OzHybrid]

Then it would be appropriate to contact CTI directly instead indirectly through a forum that they don't seem to visit.

This is their part of the forum. It's important we all know what the full operational parameters are for the igniter being used. The answer should be public.

 

[mikec]

http://pro38.com/faqs.php is very out of date but says

CTI now supplies Oxral electric matches with all Pro38 and Pro54 reloads with the exception of the G class Pro38 reloads due to the small nozzle throat. These reloads are supplied with a Daveyfire mini electric match.

UPDATE: we now supply another brand of electric match igniter which does not have a shroud - however, these matches contain updated instructions for their use. There are still reloads in dealer inventory using the Oxral matches.

 

[mikec]

And for what it's worth, the Pro29 instructions at http://www.pro38.com/pdfs/Pro29_instructions.pdf say this:

 

[Cesaroni Technology]

For those who require this info. Here are the specs for the e matches and dipped igniters that come with our reloads.

Blue/White wires


Black/Yellow wires



Bob.

 

[cwbullet]

For those who require this info. Here are the specs for the e matches and dipped igniters that come with our reloads.

Blue/White wires
View attachment 607840

Black/Yellow wires
View attachment 607841


Bob.

Bob,

Do the Black and Yellow come with certain reloads or from a different time period? I don't think I have ever seen them.

 

[jmasterj]

Bob,

Do the Black and Yellow come with certain reloads or from a different time period? I don't think I have ever seen them.

I think that's what the dipped igniters are made with; that's what the 2 I've used have been.

 

[Banzai88]

I think that's what the dipped igniters are made with; that's what the 2 I've used have been.

That may be new? I have some older reloads that have dipped igniters and they're all just plain yellow wire.

 

[Cesaroni Technology]

Bob,

Do the Black and Yellow come with certain reloads or from a different time period? I don't think I have ever seen them.

The Black and Yellow wires have long leads for the longer motors. the Blue White wires are used as is and dipped.

Bob.

 

[Cesaroni Technology]

That may be new? I have some older reloads that have dipped igniters and they're all just plain yellow wire.

I think we've had some that were all Yellow, but they're the same as the Black and Yellow.

Bob.

 

[Rocketjunkie]

I have some all yellow and some black and yellow. They are J-Teks, purchased when I had an ATF license.
Since I've found unregulated alternatives to all the regulated materials I use, I dropped my license.

 

[cwbullet]

The Black and Yellow wires have long leads for the longer motors. the Blue White wires are used as is and dipped.

Bob.

Thank you. I thought as much, but I have never seen the Yellow Jacket (black and yellow ones).

 

[jahall4]

For those who require this info. Here are the specs for the e matches and dipped igniters that come with our reloads.

Blue/White wires


Black/Yellow wires



Bob.

Which reloads come with dipped igniters vs. non dipped (with a pellet in the top grain)?

 

[Tractionengines]

Which reloads come with dipped igniters vs. non dipped (with a pellet in the top grain)?

This has been changing over time recently. As it was found some "paper" from the pellet was (might have contributed to) causing some cato's. The pellet was removed and "enhanced starters" are now supplied. [ The change could still be working thru supply chain.]

I'll find the CTI post, and link to it later today.

[ Edit: Thread 'Pro 54 2G LB issues' https://www.rocketryforum.com/threads/pro-54-2g-lb-issues.174963/ ]

 

[waltr]

Well I got some F120 reloads for the 29-1G case and they had dipped igniters. Big Problem was the igniter did NOT Fit through the nozzle!!!!

 

[Banzai88]

Well I got some F120 reloads for the 29-1G case and they had dipped igniters. Big Problem was the igniter did NOT Fit through the nozzle!!!!

Not uncommon. I've launched literally over 50 of these motors in the last few years, still have about 2 dozen in my stash.

The remedy is to shave some of the dip covering off with a pocket knife until it fits.

 

[jahall4]

This has been changing over time recently. As it was found some "paper" from the pellet was (might have contributed to) causing some cato's. The pellet was removed and "enhanced starters" are now supplied. [ The change could still be working thru supply chain.]

I'll find the CTI post, and link to it later today.

[ Edit: Thread 'Pro 54 2G LB issues' https://www.rocketryforum.com/threads/pro-54-2g-lb-issues.174963/ ]

Interesting but the notice is 3 years late! They switched over, at least for a while, to dipped ematches in 2019 on the J430. So far, they have never owned up to the switch.

So, the question still stands CTI... What motors use pellets vs those that use dipped ematches?

 

[Tractionengines]

So, the question still stands CTI... What motors use pellets vs those that use dipped ematches?

My comments also still stand:
How their built varies over the last 3-5 years. Time to get thru distribution network, and not everyone following "first-in : first-out" inventory, etc. Makes it very hard to say with any certainty what you will receive.

A list from CTI of how things WILL BE built would be great, but all they say is they are "reviewing the situation, and doing tests".

 

[speed]

Do these have to be recertified after these changes?

 

[jahall4]

A list from CTI of how things WILL BE built would be great, but all they say is they are "reviewing the situation, and doing tests".

I'd be satisfied with a list of how things were. It can be months to years before a motor is burnt. No reason to not document the change, the motors have a date code. CTI is just not doing it; they don't even know what they are shipping and when.

 

[mikec]

AFAIK the extra pyrogen doesn't affect the all-fire/no-fire properties of the igniter, so does it really matter?

(One issue, though, is that it's not uncommon for the dipped igniters to get all smashed up when taped to the outside of the cardboard tube the reload is in.)

 

[3stoogesrocketry]

AFAIK the extra pyrogen doesn't affect the all-fire/no-fire properties of the igniter, so does it really matter?

Maybe Bob can give some insight. I'm guessing our hobby is less then 15 percent of the yearly income for CTI. The clear lack of response on numerous motor issues that in my opinion should warrant a look at. The very obvious lack of QC from not only CTI, but the "machinists" if they are bold enough to call themselves that, lack of being able to hold a plus or minus 5 thousandths is ridiculous. I myself will never use a CTI product (without mods in a EX fashion) again. My question to the many, does this forum really matter to CTI in the prospective future?

 

[jahall4]

(One issue, though, is that it's not uncommon for the dipped igniters to get all smashed up when taped to the outside of the cardboard tube the reload is in.)

Exactly!

 

[Tim51]

So, the question still stands CTI... What motors use pellets vs those that use dipped ematches?

I fly CTI 38s and 54s regularly. The only CTI load I've ever had with a dipped match was a J760 White Thunder (54 3G). Here's a gratuitous pic of said flight:

 

[Cameron Anderson]

The last two K940s I flew (May of 2020 stamp) had no pellet and the dipped ematch.
First one blistered the case at the forward end, second one blow torched the case and aft closure.

 

[scschulte]

So, just reporting back. I'm afraid that I can't recommend the K1200. The good news is that the forward closure held up fine. The bad news is the rear closure didn't. The motor worked fine for about half the burn and then let go. Things got interesting after that.

Jim

View attachment 583252View attachment 583253

Hello Jim! It's been 5 months since you posted this and my Terminator-5 build got delayed but is now ready to launch in 2 weeks. Just seeing your report and photos about the problem with the K1200 5 grain White Thunder that you used. Sorry I did not get back sooner here – where does the time go?? I planned to use a K1200 for the first flight of my Terminator-5. BUT AFTER SEEING THIS -- I'm now considering a Pro54 1633 K940-18 White Thunder 4 grain. I know it's been 5 months but if you could post (or send directly to me) any further comments / details about this motor/flight. Was it 100% a motor fail issue or were there other issues (you mentioned "thrust ring" and "motor retention" in one post---) Both motors I am considering are the relatively high thrust "White Thunder" type and both have manufacturing dates of 27 July 2022. Thanks for any comments as I don't want to destroy this rocket in which I've put hundreds of hours building on its first flight! Best, Steve Schulte on Sunday 5 November 2023

 

[JimJarvis50]

Hello Jim! It's been 5 months since you posted this and my Terminator-5 build got delayed but is now ready to launch in 2 weeks. Just seeing your report and photos about the problem with the K1200 5 grain White Thunder that you used. Sorry I did not get back sooner here – where does the time go?? I planned to use a K1200 for the first flight of my Terminator-5. BUT AFTER SEEING THIS -- I'm now considering a Pro54 1633 K940-18 White Thunder 4 grain. I know it's been 5 months but if you could post (or send directly to me) any further comments / details about this motor/flight. Was it 100% a motor fail issue or were there other issues (you mentioned "thrust ring" and "motor retention" in one post---) Both motors I am considering are the relatively high thrust "White Thunder" type and both have manufacturing dates of 27 July 2022. Thanks for any comments as I don't want to destroy this rocket in which I've put hundreds of hours building on its first flight! Best, Steve Schulte on Sunday 5 November 2023

Steve,

I don't have anything to add on that particular failure. As far as I can tell, it would just one of many examples of the longer motors failing at either the top or the bottom. I'm disapointed that CTI either can't identify the problem or a can't develop a workable solution, so I'm no longer using their longer 54mm motors.

Jim

 

[scschulte]

Steve,

I don't have anything to add on that particular failure. As far as I can tell, it would just one of many examples of the longer motors failing at either the top or the bottom. I'm disapointed that CTI either can't identify the problem or a can't develop a workable solution, so I'm no longer using their longer 54mm motors.

Jim

Thanks, Jim -- and would you consider the Pro54 1633 K940-18 White Thunder 4 grain a "long" motor?

Concerning CTI Pro54 motors: I've had good luck with the J760 White Thunder 3 grain - several launches; - and good luck with the 5 grain "Green" K490 and 4 grain K530 "Smoky Sam". Those were with my 19 lb "Broken Arrow" rocket - but my Terminator is at 30 lbs so was focusing on a 4 or 5 grain White Thunder for the first launch. I'm hoping Bob from CTI might reply here and I'll try to contact them directly-- Next launch in northern Netherlands now set for 19 Oct 2023-- Appreciate your thoughts on this.

Steve Sunday 05 November 2023

 

[rfjustin]

Thanks, Jim -- and would you consider the Pro54 1633 K940-18 White Thunder 4 grain a "long" motor?

Concerning CTI Pro54 motors: I've had good luck with the J760 White Thunder 3 grain - several launches; - and good luck with the 5 grain "Green" K490 and 4 grain K530 "Smoky Sam". Those were with my 19 lb "Broken Arrow" rocket - but my Terminator is at 30 lbs so was focusing on a 4 or 5 grain White Thunder for the first launch. I'm hoping Bob from CTI might reply here and I'll try to contact them directly-- Next launch in northern Netherlands now set for 19 Oct 2023-- Appreciate your thoughts on this.

Steve Sunday 05 November 2023

I would not be so bold as to speak for @JimJarvis50, but if I recall correctly, his burned through K-1200 at the nozzle. Same exact failure mode as I experienced with a K-1440. No explanation has been offered for this specific failure mode. "Long" 54mm motor or not, if it burns through the case at the nozzle, your bird is cooked. What's your risk appetite?

 

[scschulte]

I would not be so bold as to speak for @JimJarvis50, but if I recall correctly, his burned through K-1200 at the nozzle. Same exact failure mode as I experienced with a K-1440. No explanation has been offered for this specific failure mode. "Long" 54mm motor or not, if it burns through the case at the nozzle, your bird is cooked. What's your risk appetite?

Thanks for the comments! I did quite a few flights at BONG from 2013 through 2016 then moved back to Europe. (Certified at Bong in July 1991 - before moving to Belgium -- no levels then!)

My risk appetite: ZERO for this rocket. I purchased the 2 White Thunder motors (4 grain & 5 grain) a year ago to be ready to fly my Terminator (which is now almost completed). And then I hear about this issue with long CTI Pro54's… Don't want to fly on a Pro75 for the first flight (and we don't have real high ceilings here in The Netherlands where I fly). So I feel a bit 'yuck' right now--

I would appreciate anyone's comments on success or failure with July 2022 or later manufacture date of Pro54 motors especially 4 grain & 5 grain and White Thunder.

If Bob from CTI sees this I'd really appreciate any comments.

I always lubricate the casing (Lithium grease now) - but that's done to make motor removal from the casing easier. I've never epoxied the forward closure nor the nozzle -- and would appreciate instructions on how best to do that from someone who has done that with success. (I have seen a few references to that earlier in this thread).

Thanks very much -- quite discouraging to get this far with a great rocket and then feel unable to launch it…

Best, Steve Sunday 5 November 2023

 

[scschulte]

Thanks, Jim -- and would you consider the Pro54 1633 K940-18 White Thunder 4 grain a "long" motor?

Concerning CTI Pro54 motors: I've had good luck with the J760 White Thunder 3 grain - several launches; - and good luck with the 5 grain "Green" K490 and 4 grain K530 "Smoky Sam". Those were with my 19 lb "Broken Arrow" rocket - but my Terminator is at 30 lbs so was focusing on a 4 or 5 grain White Thunder for the first launch. I'm hoping Bob from CTI might reply here and I'll try to contact them directly-- Next launch in northern Netherlands now set for 19 Oct 2023-- Appreciate your thoughts on this.

Steve Sunday 05 November 2023

Typo: Our next launch is scheduled for Sunday 19 NOVEMBER 2023… Steve Sunday 5 November 2023