CoolRockets
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Right, everyone, I know I want other scale rockets but the us is starting to run low on what Estes has not made, so what do you think?
Should Estes make scale rockets that are not American (or the v2)
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I know this is something of a thought exercise, but there are a lot of US and foreign rockets/missiles that have not been touched on the low power/mid power side of things. There has been a huge proliferation of private space launchers, ballistic missiles (placed in service, or merely as prototypes), and national space launchers, etc, over the last few decades and it would be nice to see some of those available from a retail source in the form of a good quality kit.
I'll throw out one idea, what about a mid-power upscale SCUD (either PSII, or BT-80 based)? On the US side, a Pershing II on a 24mm motor would be neat as can be. Maybe an X-37B boost glider or something. An SS-21 Tochka would be very cool as a scale kit. Since Estes seems destined to produce a Falcon 9 w/fairing (and someday hopefully re-release the Titan IIIE), maybe a line of experiment payloads (not a scale thing, but it would be neat to see an accelerometer, or other telemetry package, that kids could send up to gather data like the commonly available altimeters) and/or scale models of historical probes that can be built and flown on their scale boosters... just a thought.
I am well aware that "what is cool" and "what will sell" are not the same questions, especially since a lot of Estes' market is younger people with less in the way of knowledge about historical and/or foreign rockets and missiles. What sells are frequently the things that capture the imagination and those are most often what people see going into space on YouTube with fancy production values, etc, and there are always political considerations when modeling foreign missiles (eg. some segment of the buying public will wring their hands if Estes produces an Iskander kit). It's a pity the an object is so frequently tied to an ideology.
I'll throw out one idea, what about a mid-power upscale SCUD (either PSII, or BT-80 based)? On the US side, a Pershing II on a 24mm motor would be neat as can be. Maybe an X-37B boost glider or something. An SS-21 Tochka would be very cool as a scale kit. Since Estes seems destined to produce a Falcon 9 w/fairing (and someday hopefully re-release the Titan IIIE), maybe a line of experiment payloads (not a scale thing, but it would be neat to see an accelerometer, or other telemetry package, that kids could send up to gather data like the commonly available altimeters) and/or scale models of historical probes that can be built and flown on their scale boosters... just a thought.
I am well aware that "what is cool" and "what will sell" are not the same questions, especially since a lot of Estes' market is younger people with less in the way of knowledge about historical and/or foreign rockets and missiles. What sells are frequently the things that capture the imagination and those are most often what people see going into space on YouTube with fancy production values, etc, and there are always political considerations when modeling foreign missiles (eg. some segment of the buying public will wring their hands if Estes produces an Iskander kit). It's a pity the an object is so frequently tied to an ideology.
DAllen
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I think we consumers should decide what Estes makes with our wallets.
CoolRockets
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Well I think it would be neat if they do a 1:100 scale h-3, long March 5, Soyuz, or a 1:200 scale n-1
CoolRockets
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What do you mean by that?
DAllen
Well-Known Member
Exactly what I said.
Supply/demand. If they think a kit is going to sell and make a profit then that's the kit they should be making regardless of what the country of origin is.
On a related note...I am not going to buy a WW2 V2 simply because of what it represents. Would I care if Estes made a WW2 V2? At this point probably not - but if it did bother me then I wouldn't buy any of Estes kits. Called vote with your wallet.
I'm one of those people who will buy a product, knowing that I don't really need it, in order to support a company or product line. In this context, I begged for years for the Saturn IB to come back and bought one as soon as they were available, knowing full well that it was going to be a very long time before I built it... if I ever get around to it. But if we consumers want a product that doesn't exist, and isn't planned to exist, to come into existence, it's very hard to do that with our wallets. Using my X-37B example, if Estes has nothing like that in their current product line, then how would my wallet do the voting? ... Buying a Doorknob isn't telling Estes to make an X-37B, or a Soyuz.
If I'm clear on what you're saying, it's that we need to buy scale if we want scale, but to the OP's point, there isn't really any foreign scale available to buy (except maybe the Black Brant).
Why would model rockets not be like model planes?? Manufactures have made Zeros, FW s, BF s, and so on.
DAllen
Well-Known Member
Different audience is my guess.
lakeroadster
When in doubt... build hell-for-stout!
The world is your oyster. Why wait for Estes? Why wait for anybody?
Scratch build it.
Scratch build it.
I guess the most obvious answer for me is accessibility. When you have very little time available to enjoy your hobby, or you want to get a kid started into scale, having a kit available at retail is a more realistic option than sorting out a scratch build... especially for something with a complex nosecone or other feature.
lakeroadster
When in doubt... build hell-for-stout!
Well... then buy what's available. There are more options today then there have ever been.
Another option is to do a "kit bash" where you buy a model rocket kit that is similar to what you would like... and then modify it to meet your needs.
Challenge yourself.
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Undoubtedly there are a lot of real (and not-real) rockets that have narrow appeal. I love Radical Rocketry's idea of 3D printing a builder's kit for the Thunderbird 3. Eventually I'll build the one I bought....
Perhaps there are more potential vendors out there who could provide similar kits for scale models. There are several Japanese rockets that would make nice models, including a couple that are potentially two-stage.
Perhaps there are more potential vendors out there who could provide similar kits for scale models. There are several Japanese rockets that would make nice models, including a couple that are potentially two-stage.
That's the key: narrow appeal. Estes deals in volume, and needs to offer kits that have wider appeal. I think you're more likely to get some of the less-known international models from other vendors (Rocketarium and ASP already make a few). Or, of course, scratchbuild... but I understand that that is not for everyone.
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Would Neutron count? RocketLab was founded in New Zealand, but their facility to manufacture Neutron is in the USA. But, this is irrelevant because this hobby, and Estes itself is not US specific. Estes sells globally, the hobby itself is global, and there are plenty of scale models to make if you think globally.
Estes has made scale models of foreign rockets in the past. They had a semi-scale Vostok, with profile outboard boosters, Scud B, Black Brants, and several others. I believe Estes should, if the market will support, make scale models of non-US rockets.
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Right... Forgot about that one. I have an Estes Black Brant I call "Oh Canada" and I remember the Vostok in the old catalogs, but I never had one. If Estes offered that now, I'd buy it because I an now enamored by Russian space hardware because it's all 50-year old designs, and looks so vintage. Wouldn't mind an Energia model. I may scratch build one in the near future.
They've also done kits of the Italian Marte Mark and the French Exocet in 18 and 13 mm. And the UK Sea Dart.
SecondRow
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If you’re interested in building foreign rockets, check out Aggressor Aerospace kits. All of their kits are foreign semi scale rockets. China, India, Israel, Iran….
The kits are sold by Apogee and Boyce. I’ve never built any of them, so I can’t attest as to quality. I’ve just noticed them from time to time.
EDIT: Apogee sells the full kit. Boyce sells most of the parts, but you still need to buy the tubes, shock cord, chute, etc.
The kits are sold by Apogee and Boyce. I’ve never built any of them, so I can’t attest as to quality. I’ve just noticed them from time to time.
EDIT: Apogee sells the full kit. Boyce sells most of the parts, but you still need to buy the tubes, shock cord, chute, etc.
I'm not going to comment on whether a V-2 "should" be made, as that would require closing a business case. Rather, assuming that business case works out, I will say there is no reason why it shouldn't be made. Its extreme historical significance makes it a subject of interest for many modellers. It's the grandfather of many of the rockets from the 1960's golden age that we know and love. If you can't abide the German flavor of it, use a paint scheme from the ones that were launched in White Sands after the war.
What the V2 represents is an historic coming of age of liquid propulsion rockets. Sure, Robert Goddard developed the first liquid propulsion rockets, and even crude gyroscopic control but his efforts only led to some Bazooka and JATO developments. While Sperry did some fine work on guidance and control, the Germans made a quantum leap in guidance and control technology, not to mention supersonic wind tunnels... Yes, it is true that many for,ed laborers died producing the V2, but it also shortened the war by sucking up limited resources that could have been used on more efficient weaponry. While I could say much more about the V2, I agree, vote with your wallet.
Also Really Koo Stuff and Altaira sell versions of the N1.
And David Koo has a Soyuz in the pipeline, and a Gird 87 prototype.
And of course Rocketarium and the defunct TLP have sold many foreign missile kits.
I have built two of the Agressor Aerospace kits, the Agni 1 and CZ1.
The conduits for the Agni 1 were too short, but Boyce sent replacements.
The CZ1/Long March 1 is a beauty.
Now back to the question of ESTES production of foreign missile kits.
SecondRow
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Fair enough.
For Estes to bring out a new scale kit (unless it uses stock parts only) would require tooling to make the plastic parts, which isn't cheap. And they need to sell large numbers of kits to make a profit. That's a positive aspect of 3D-printed builders' kits. You can charge more than Estes would because the narrow group of people who buy it will really want it. A vendor need only have a large-enough/fast enough 3D printer to supply the narrow demand, no $10k molds necessary.
For example, I could see a series of Ariane rockets from the same vendor. Some parts could be used for several models, though some models will require their own special parts.
Nonetheless it would likely be a labor of love. Which I think we could all appreciate.
For example, I could see a series of Ariane rockets from the same vendor. Some parts could be used for several models, though some models will require their own special parts.
Nonetheless it would likely be a labor of love. Which I think we could all appreciate.
Unless Estes transitions to 3D printed parts as well.
CoolRockets
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They had the Vostok for a year
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Estes should make whatever it thinks it can sell and be most profitable with.
What I want really doesn't come into it, unless they build something I want. I am not going to keep them in business.
I do wish they would sell more parts as standalone parts, but if they wouldn't make money doing that, then they shouldn't do it.
What I want really doesn't come into it, unless they build something I want. I am not going to keep them in business.
I do wish they would sell more parts as standalone parts, but if they wouldn't make money doing that, then they shouldn't do it.
I personally think they would make a shedload of money selling clear fin cans and moulded transitions. Dan Average isn't going to 3D print a small transition, unless they have a 3D printer on hand and the skills to drive it, if there is a chance to buy one off the shelf with your next Estes order.
Just my $0.02 worth. YMMV, as ever.
lakeroadster
When in doubt... build hell-for-stout!
With all due respect.... what the V2 represents for a myriad of folks in the UK, and the WWII allies ... is a weapon that killed their family members / mates / friends.
I recall a WWII vet lecturing a young lakeroadster back in the 1980's about how he would never buy a Japanese vehicle. I couldn't relate.... well until a few years later... I visited the Arizona memorial in Oahu. At that time you watched a video about the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor and then took a boat over to the Arizona memorial.
If I had been home... I would have taken a hammer and beat the mirrors off my Toyota Tacoma.
I learned right there it's something you have to experience yourself.
While I have respect for the technology of the German and Japanese war machine.... I to this day, due to my deep respect for the allied forces, will never build a replica of anything that is based on the axis technology, technology specifically built to kill allied forces.
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Ah screw it. I deleted my reply. I just don't get the country anymore.
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