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Getting enough downforce to give the tyres grip is the main problem for faster acceleration. Batteries help with mass but it runs into a limit along the way too. There was that single-seater upthread that has fans to suction it to the road. That was pretty slick.
 
I'm guessing that the reason GM went with a hybrid Vette instead of a full EV is that they felt it necessary to placate the hard core Vette owners. A full EV with a motor at each wheel would blow the doors off any comparable ICE.
I would like to see GM come up with a Vette that is a Plaid beater.
Die-hard Corvette owners are not "fooled", or amused . . . My neighbor is one of them and he looks at the E-Ray as the "death of the Corvette".

Dave F.
 
It would be easy to beat the Plaid in terms of looks and excitement. The Plaid is very good with straight line acceleration, how does it do in terms of handling?
If there was enough demand maybe they could come up with 3 versions- full ICE, full EV, hybrid.
My Jeep will beat both of them if I get to choose the road. My other little car is much faster than I need on the highway.
In terms of looks and excitement, people are eagerly waiting for the Tesla Roadster, but the Rimac Nevara seeems to be filling that gap for now. As for handling, here's one answer:

"That 7:35 time—which bests the previous EV record-holder, the Porsche Taycan Turbo, by sevend seconds —was recorded using the Nürburgring's official lap time method."

https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a...id-claims-nurburgring-ev-record-with-735-lap/
Getting enough downforce to give the tyres grip is the main problem for faster acceleration. Batteries help with mass but it runs into a limit along the way too. There was that single-seater upthread that has fans to suction it to the road. That was pretty slick.
I think you mean this one:

https://mcmurtry.com/speirling/
🔥⚡🔥⚡🔥⚡

Here's Doug with the new Prius:

 
Getting enough downforce to give the tyres grip is the main problem for faster acceleration. Batteries help with mass but it runs into a limit along the way too. There was that single-seater upthread that has fans to suction it to the road. That was pretty slick.
The McMurty is absolutely wild. It destroyed the ID.R's time at the Goodwood Hill Climb last year. It looks like they may give it a go at Pike's Peak this year, I'm really excited for that.

 
"It takes more electricity to drive the average gasoline car 100 miles, than it does to drive an electric car 100 miles."

https://www.autoblog.com/2011/10/14/how-gas-cars-use-more-electricity-to-go-100-miles-than-evs-do/
Interesting the article pulls a number 8kwh to produce a gallon of gasoline out of thin air without attribution but does not say how many kwh of electricity is required to produce a kwh of electricity. This article suggest the true number is around 0.8kwh of electricity to produce a gallon of gasoline, worst case.
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/so-exactly-how-much-electricity-does-take-produce-gallon-paul-martin/
Only an order of magnitude off.

How much electricity is used to produce 1kwh of electricity?
 
Interesting document from Volvo:

"Volvo Cars published the life cycle assessment of the new Volvo C40 Recharge it makes in Belgium. One of the key findings is that even when the C40 Recharge is charged with electricity from the global energy mix, its carbon footprint, including production and recycling, is lower than that of a combustion engine.

As the C40 Recharge is the first Volvo model to be offered exclusively with electric drive, a petrol-engined Volvo XC40 was used as a comparative combustion engine model for the analysis. Both models are based on the CMA platform from Volvo and its parent company Geely.

According to the life cycle assessment, the C40 Recharge has a CO2 footprint of around 27 tonnes over its entire life cycle if the charging current comes exclusively from clean energy sources. If, on the other hand, the vehicle owner uses the average global energy mix, in which about 60 per cent of electricity is generated from fossil fuels, emissions rise to as much as 50 tonnes of CO2 – with the EU-28 electricity mix, the figure is still 42 tonnes of CO2."

https://www.electrive.com/2021/11/04/volvo-reveals-the-co2-footprint-of-the-c40-recharge/
 

Attachments

  • Volvo-C40-Recharge-LCA-report.pdf
    2.1 MB · Views: 0
Interesting the article pulls a number 8kwh to produce a gallon of gasoline out of thin air without attribution but does not say how many kwh of electricity is required to produce a kwh of electricity. This article suggest the true number is around 0.8kwh of electricity to produce a gallon of gasoline, worst case.
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/so-exactly-how-much-electricity-does-take-produce-gallon-paul-martin/
Only an order of magnitude off.

How much electricity is used to produce 1kwh of electricity?
https://greentransportation.info/energy-transportation/gasoline-costs-6kwh.html
This article also suggests a different number.
 
Interesting document from Volvo: ...
Yes that's an important report. I saw it when it was released but might not have posted it. On page 24:

“The comparison of carbon footprint between C40 Recharge and XC40 ICE (E5 petrol) shows that the C40 Recharge has a 15 per cent lower carbon footprint than the XC40 ICE”

But I don't think it accounts for the fact that the battery and its materials can be recycled over and over.

Interesting the article pulls a number 8kwh to produce a gallon of gasoline out of thin air without attribution but does not say how many kwh of electricity is required to produce a kwh of electricity.
The 8 kWh number is not out of thin air, the article references:

http://electricmini.blogspot.com/2011/10/it-takes-lot-of-coal-to-make-gasoline.html
 
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Interesting the article pulls a number 8kwh to produce a gallon of gasoline out of thin air without attribution but does not say how many kwh of electricity is required to produce a kwh of electricity. This article suggest the true number is around 0.8kwh of electricity to produce a gallon of gasoline, worst case.
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/so-exactly-how-much-electricity-does-take-produce-gallon-paul-martin/
Only an order of magnitude off.

How much electricity is used to produce 1kwh of electricity?
According to this source, about 5% of the total energy losses in generating electricity is the electric power used in generating electricity. If that's reasonably accurate (and feel free to propose another source if you don't like this one), the power plant generates 1.05 kWh of electricity to produce 1 kWh of electricity out the wires of the power plant.

It's not clear how that varies by fuel source, nor is it clear how much power is used in getting usable fuel to a fossil/nuclear power plant. There's obviously no need to transport wind and solar to their respective plants, though wind turbines will use some electric power to pitch the turbine blades and the like.

Of course, in a number of areas you have second-order effects (eg how much electricity did it take to refine and transport the diesel used to drive the train that moved the coal to the power plant).
 
Yes that's an important report. I saw it when it was released but might not have posted it.

"Production of aluminium and the Li-ion battery modules have relative high carbon footprints, with a contribution of approximately 30 per cent each to the total footprint of all materials and components in the C40 Recharge." P6

That's more honesty than I've found in most EV government reports that claim 'Completely Green' credentials for EVs.

"The highly probable future reduction of carbon intensity of the EU-28 electricity mix will reduce the carbon footprint of C40 Recharge when using this mix for driving. However, a significantly lower carbon footprint is achieved when charging the car with renewable electricity, such as wind power." P6

Or put another way, if the EU changes its electricity mix our carbon footprint will be lower, but the end user is still, and always shall be, responsible for the overall carbon footprint of the vehicle due to their selection of energy source.

In my opinion most people have no idea how their electricity is produced.

As ever, YMMV.
 
Interesting the article pulls a number 8kwh to produce a gallon of gasoline out of thin air without attribution but does not say how many kwh of electricity is required to produce a kwh of electricity. This article suggest the true number is around 0.8kwh of electricity to produce a gallon of gasoline, worst case.
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/so-exactly-how-much-electricity-does-take-produce-gallon-paul-martin/
Only an order of magnitude off.

How much electricity is used to produce 1kwh of electricity?
Speaking of pulling numbers out of thin air, your guy pulls out of thin air that 15% of the energy used in a refinery is from electricity. That doesn't appear to have a supported data source.
 
According to this source, about 5% of the total energy losses...
I can't imagine how any power distribution can be more energy efficient than wires straight from the power plant, so I'm not sure it's even worth arguing this. I mean, it might be fun, but I don't think you have to.

"Production of aluminium and the Li-ion battery modules have relative high carbon footprints, with a contribution of approximately 30 per cent each to the total footprint of all materials and components in the C40 Recharge." P6

That's more honesty than I've found in most EV government reports that claim 'Completely Green' credentials for EVs.
I don't think I've never seen any "completely green" claims myself. I'd say EV's are undoutedly "greener" than ICEs, but when I want to really go "green", I walk or bicycle.

"The highly probable future reduction of carbon intensity of the EU-28 electricity mix will reduce the carbon footprint of C40 Recharge when using this mix for driving. However, a significantly lower carbon footprint is achieved when charging the car with renewable electricity, such as wind power." P6

Or put another way, if the EU changes its electricity mix our carbon footprint will be lower, but the end user is still, and always shall be, responsible for the overall carbon footprint of the vehicle due to their selection of energy source.

In my opinion most people have no idea how their electricity is produced.
Yeah. And I think that's why most people say "green" instead of "greener" (or better yet "more sustainable"). They just want to gossip at Wednesday night's bowling so they don't have to think about grids and kWh's.
 
Lets do some math. Boatgeek can check my math. Here is top down calculation

Amount of petroleum fuel distillates produced in the US.
Amount of gasoline produced per year in the US. = 133 billion gallons.
Amount of diesel fuel produced domestically = 68 billion gallons
Amount of jet fuel produced domestically = 23.9 billion gallons
Amount of fuel oil produced domestically = 75 billlion gallons -
Total. 300 billions of gallons of distillates produced per year.
If 8kwh are needed to produce a gallon that is 2.4 trillion kwh hours devoted to distillate production. (8kwh x 300 billion gallons of distillates)

Total US electric generation is 2022 = 3.93 trillion kwh

So those who buy that 8kwh are needed to produce a gallon of gasoline must believe that 61% of ALL us electricity production goes to refining oil.

Now the EIA says that electricity use is allocated thusly : ~39% residential, 35% commercial, 26% industrial, 0.2% transportation.

So something does not add up with these 8kwh or 6kwh numbers per gallon of gasoline.

So I am tired, and there is the possibility of a math mistake. Find it if I made one.
 
Yeah. And I think that's why most people say "green" instead of "greener" (or better yet "more sustainable"). They just want to gossip at Wednesday night's bowling so they don't have to think about grids and kWh's.
This is Burlington, VT in a nutshell. They constantly parrot talking points, and care more about the appearance than the substance. The types that drive a Tesla but fly down to their second home every weekend.

Lets do some math. Boatgeek can check my math.
Amount of petroleum fuel distillates produced in the US.
Amount of gasoline produced per year in the US. = 133 billion gallons.
Amount of diesel fuel produced domestically = 68 billion gallons
Amount of jet fuel produced domestically = 23.9 billion gallons
Amount of fuel oil produced domestically = 75 billlion gallons -
Total. 300 billions of gallons of distillates produced per year.
If 8kwh are needed to produce a gallon that is 2.4 trillion kwh hours devoted to distillate production. (8kwh x 300 billion gallons of distillates)

Total US electric generation is 2022 = 3.93 trillion kwh

So those who buy that 8kwh are needed to produce a gallon of gasoline must believe that 61% of ALL us electricity production goes to refining oil.

Now the EIA says that electricity use is allocated thusly : ~39% residential, 35% commercial, 26% industrial, 0.2% transportation.

So something does not add up with these 8kwh or 6kwh numbers per gallon of gasoline.

So I am tired, and there is the possibility of a math mistake. Find it if I made one.
The following is research notes I wrote, maybe in 2012, when I first heard this claim and was hoping to verify it. Unfortunately the evidence I found wasn't concrete bullet-proof validation. Instead, estimates are all over the place from negligible energy/electricity per gallon to as much as 12 kiloWatt-hours. The video above claims it's about 4.5 kiloWatt-hours per gallon, and says that in England statistics had been reported until 2005.
Edit: did you even read past the title? This isn’t Reddit. 🤣
 
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According to this source, about 5% of the total energy losses in generating electricity is the electric power used in generating electricity. If that's reasonably accurate (and feel free to propose another source if you don't like this one), the power plant generates 1.05 kWh of electricity to produce 1 kWh of electricity out the wires of the power plant.

It's not clear how that varies by fuel source, nor is it clear how much power is used in getting usable fuel to a fossil/nuclear power plant. There's obviously no need to transport wind and solar to their respective plants, though wind turbines will use some electric power to pitch the turbine blades and the like.

Of course, in a number of areas you have second-order effects (eg how much electricity did it take to refine and transport the diesel used to drive the train that moved the coal to the power plant).
A good generator may reach an efficiency of 95%, looking at shaft input to power output, but it isn't the whole story. If you are driving it with steam or gas or some other thermal generation then there are losses associated with that. Add in any mechanical losses (gearboxes, mechanical power transmission) and you could easily lose another third I would think. So quoting "generators are 95% efficient" is disregarding a major portion of the entire energy cycle.
 
Unfortunately people think that is the only step, not just a step. Unfortunately that is the line some Governments (ie, mine) are pushing.
Yeah, I don’t disagree, but when you have one side that doesn’t believe we need to change anything and the other that believes it has to happen yesterday… we get this.
 
A good generator may reach an efficiency of 95%, looking at shaft input to power output, but it isn't the whole story. If you are driving it with steam or gas or some other thermal generation then there are losses associated with that. Add in any mechanical losses (gearboxes, mechanical power transmission) and you could easily lose another third I would think. So quoting "generators are 95% efficient" is disregarding a major portion of the entire energy cycle.
I agree that electricity out / total energy in is far, far lower than 95%. As you say, there's a lot of thermodynamic losses in there, probably minimum 40% for a thermal turbine plant.

My understanding of the question was the electricity required to keep the plant itself running. For a coal plant, that would include:
Coal conveyors
Coolant circulation pumps (if any?)
Ventilation fans
Lights
Space heating/cooling for offices etc.
Monitoring/alarm systems
And lots of other things I'm not thinking of right now.
 
Here's your problem.
A coal plant powering 100 EVs emits less GHGs than 100 ICEs, so if reducing GHG is the goal, an EV still wins (again, not "green", but "greener than a similar ICE", not counting the silence, torque, safety, and home charging convenience).
 
I agree that electricity out / total energy in is far, far lower than 95%. As you say, there's a lot of thermodynamic losses in there, probably minimum 40% for a thermal turbine plant.

My understanding of the question was the electricity required to keep the plant itself running. For a coal plant, that would include:
Coal conveyors
Coolant circulation pumps (if any?)
Ventilation fans
Lights
Space heating/cooling for offices etc.
Monitoring/alarm systems
And lots of other things I'm not thinking of right now.
I have toured our local coal-fired generation system, Loy Yang. They mine the brown coal directly from next to the power generation hardware. Large mechanised wheels gouge out the coal and feed it directly onto large conveyors. Conveyor belts snake across the pit to a large storage building that can only store about 18 hours worth of generation. All mining is effectively driven by electricity demand and delivered using a just-in-time process. The conveyors and buckets are driven with electricity directly from the generators. A large diameter 6kV extension-lead runs from the generators, snaking across the pit to where it is needed, typically on the ground, but occasionally buried under "roads" where necessary. Electricity runs all necessary process equipment, including things like the coal grinders and other ancillary equipment.

Incidentally, there is a briquette plant as part of the entire system. It manufactures briquettes for combustion stoves etc, but its primary existence is due to the fact it takes 300 tonnes of briquettes to start a furnace at the coal-powered power station.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BriquetteLoy Yang has a total of six furnaces. Furnaces are about 19 storeys high, and suspended from the top only as they change length as they change temperature.

Loy Yang is the largest coal generating station in Australia and is about 150km east of Melbourne. It's sister station, the older Hazlewood plant, was decommissioned in 2017.
 
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I have toured our local coal-fired generation system, Loy Yang. They mine the brown coal directly from next to the power generation hardware. Large mechanised wheels gouge out the coal and feed it directly onto large conveyors. Conveyor belts snake across the pit to a large storage building that can only store about 18 hours worth of generation. All mining is effectively driven by electricity demand and delivered using a just-in-time process. The conveyors and buckets are driven with electricity directly from the generators. A large diameter 6kV extension-lead runs from the generators, snaking across the pit to where it is needed, typically on the ground, but occasionally buried under "roads" where necessary. Electricity runs all necessary process equipment, including things like the coal grinders and other ancillary equipment.

Incidentally, there is a briquette plant as part of the entire system. It manufactures briquettes for combustion stoves etc, but its primary existence is due to the fact it takes 300 tonnes of briquettes to start a furnace at the coal-powered power station.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BriquetteLoy Yang has a total of six furnaces. Furnaces are about 19 storeys high, and suspended from the top only as they change length as they change temperature.

Loy Yang is the largest coal generating station in Australia and is about 150km east of Melbourne. It's sister station, the older Hazlewood plant, was decommissioned in 2017.
I am simultaneously fascinated and appalled by the concept of a 6kV extension cord lying across the figurative yard.

It probably takes more than one can of lighter fluid to get 300 MT of briquettes going too.
 
Just throwing this in here for your consideration.

"Tesla Can Slash its Prices Because its Cars Are So Cheap to Build"

https://jalopnik.com/tesla-slashes-...-BHWgzF6gpp6s_A7mD8oumwHsnzbhKcEYe9oqCRa0yVJU

"According to Reuters, analysts are warning that the global EV market’s production capacity will soon outpace demand. It’s reported that by 2026, North American EV demand will hit about 2.8 million vehicles per year. However, North American EV factories will be capable of producing over 4.5 million vehicles in the same time frame."
 
Reading up now on the reduction in battery life associated with numerous 'rapid charging' cycles of EVs. Report back some time.
https://avt.inl.gov/sites/default/files/pdf/vehiclebatteries/FastChargeEffects.pdf
2015 study using Leafs. Passively cooled batteries and iirc under 50kW charge rate. Similar to my e Golfs. I monitor the battery capacity pretty closely and haven’t seen any real degradation in the older one despite multiple road trips with 10+ DC charges along them. On the older cars it’s been pretty safe to DC charge them, I’ve gone two months with nothing but DC charges and haven’t had an issue. I’d imagine most BMS in vehicles will balance at rest, but that could cause issues with consecutive DC charges if not and shorten the life of the battery.

The super high charge rates concern me, but they’re also typically much larger batteries and actively cooled. Not sure how longevity is looking with the newer stuff but even if I had a newer EV I think I’d still limit to more reasonable charge rates more often than not.
 
Source, please.
I've seen that in a few places, but here's the first source I found again (Page 5 of the "full report"):

"For example, if you were to charge a typical midsize electric vehicle using electricity generated by coal-fired power plants, that vehicle would have an mpgghg of 30. In other words, the global warming emissions from driving that electric vehicle would be equivalent to the emissions from operating a gasoline vehicle with 30 mpg fuel economy over the same distance (Table 1.1).3 Under this equivalency, the cleaner an electricity generation source, the higher the mpgghg. When charging an EV from resources such as wind or solar, the mpg equivalent is in the hundreds (or thousands) because these resources produce very little global warming emissions when generating electricity.

The average EPA window-sticker fuel economy rating of all compact vehicles sold in 2010 (the most recent year for which data are available) was 27 mpg, while midsize vehicles averaged about 26 mpg (EPA 2010b). This means that even when charging an EV with electricity made only from coal (the dirtiest electricity source), the EV has better emissions than the average new compact gasoline vehicle."

https://www.ucsusa.org/resources/state-charge#ucs-report-downloads
 
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