Multi Stage Saturn V

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Do a separate test, while video taping, with the fuse hanging into a clear glass of water, and light the fuse with an e-match...
Would that work for ya?​
This fuse burns so quick I'm not sure it'll be very spectacular... but I'll be more than happy to "burn one" for ya, Joe. :haironfire:
That'd be great. I'm not looking for spectacular, just burn or no burn. Thanks.
 
Really nice CAD drawings. Do you ever make 3D printable models for any of your parts, or just make everything with traditional methods and materials for your rockets? I used to do some CAD stuff at work, but never got CAD software for my home Mac computer. It would be neat to try making some 3D printed parts, our library here has a 3D printer available now.

One idea to consider, is for testing out portions of the cluster ignition and staging one stage component at a time, although this is more costly in the number of motors and materials along the way. This kind of follows the concept of the old Apollo days where you test a rocket with a dummy equivalent payload similar in weight/c.g. - i.e. a boilerplate model. For example, test the first booster cluster stage with a sustainer that is just an empty weighted portion to mimic the remaining stages but maybe with one motor and chute. Then, do a two stage cluster with a smaller boilerplate simplified third stage sustainer. The series of mock-up boilerplates is just a suggestion for a flight testing approach to validate the design concepts one at a time so that you can incrementally build on each flight-tested proven design. Just an idea, I think your designs, drawings, and sims are pretty well thought out.

Thanks for posting, much appreciated.

I have yet to create any 3d printed parts. It would be super easy but I really enjoy the challenge of making rockets and their components, as you say, with traditional methods.

The series of launches to test / validate the various stages is interesting and makes a lot of sense when a lot of blood and treasure is at risk.

Back when I was building my Mercury Capsule Abort LES rocket I watched a video of a Mercury capsule, made out of steel (boiler plate) and they took this capsule up in a cargo plane and booted it out the back to test recovery systems, etc. Being a guy who worked at heavy fabrication shops that fabricated pressure vessels my entire career, but being an air and space fanatic, I can't imagine a more rewarding project than that.

I'll think over your suggestion for a simplified 2nd Stage just for proof of concept of the staging tubes for the 1st to 2nd stage.

Again, thanks for posting.
 
Finished the Bill of Material and placed an order with BMS for BT's and Couplers, also ordered the Quick Visco fuse.

I also splurged and bought something I've always thought was way cool... a Jolly Logic Altimeter 2. Free shipping if you buy it from Jolly Logic. Now I can get some hard data to compare against Open Rocket Simulations.

2022-12-25 Bill Of Material Saturn V Model Rocket.jpg
 
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Just a quick thought...this may have been brought up already but depending on the type of material used to print your manifolds, it is important to print them in an orientation and layer height to get the smoothest surface possible (within reason). In addition to the heat, there will be debris build up on the inside of the manifolds. This will add weight and limit efficiency over time. Since we all keep our rockets forever ( 😏 ) this could eventually have an impact. I have printed a few fin cans with a built in ejection tube and it got pretty abused after just a few launches. Given the complexity of your design, if you do plan to print these manifolds (you mentioned "traditional material") take the added time to print them at a high resolution out of ABS if you can. That will give you the best chance at heat and flow.
 
Just a quick thought...this may have been brought up already but depending on the type of material used to print your manifolds, it is important to print them in an orientation and layer height to get the smoothest surface possible (within reason). In addition to the heat, there will be debris build up on the inside of the manifolds. This will add weight and limit efficiency over time. Since we all keep our rockets forever ( 😏 ) this could eventually have an impact. I have printed a few fin cans with a built in ejection tube and it got pretty abused after just a few launches. Given the complexity of your design, if you do plan to print these manifolds (you mentioned "traditional material") take the added time to print them at a high resolution out of ABS if you can. That will give you the best chance at heat and flow.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this.

There are no 3d printed parts on this rocket.. the staging tube is slated to be made from BT-50H & C-50 cardboard tubes, liberally coated internally with wood glue.
 
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If you haven't seen this, it's worth your time. So much to learn... so little time.

Short Version

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Long Version


I didn't know the 3rd stages of some of the Saturn V rockets actually crashed into the moon, by design! That's discussed in the above video. The 3rd stage of Apollo 12 is actually still journeying in Earth orbit, in lunar orbit and in Solar orbit... more on that here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J002E3

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J002E3#/media/File:J002e3f_orbit.gif
 
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Made some updates to the design.

I designed a spool for the 1st and 2nd stages.​
The 1st stage spool (See drawing sheets #1 and #4 below)​
  • has a BT-3 internal tube to securely hold the fuse bundle
  • has staging gas vent holes to direct the gases up and out of the 1st stage BT-300, via holes punched through the tube.
  • Protects the parachute from the 2nd stage motors when they fire
  • protects the parachute from the 1st stage ejection charge.
The 2nd stage spool (See drawing sheets #1)​
  • Protects the parachute from the 3rd stage motors when they fire
  • protects the parachute from the 2nd stage ejection charge.
I also added a 1/4" hole thru the wall of the 3rd stage transition to vent staging gasses.​

Here's the updated drawing package.

Drawing 1 through 10 of 19: Rev 04

Saturn V Dwg Sht 1 of 19 Rev 04.png

Saturn V Dwg Sht 2 of 19 Rev 04.pngSaturn V Dwg Sht 3 of 19 Rev 04.pngSaturn V Dwg Sht 4 of 19 Rev 04.pngSaturn V Dwg Sht 5 of 19 Rev 04.pngSaturn V Dwg Sht 6 of 19 Rev 04.pngSaturn V Dwg Sht 7 of 19 Rev 04.pngSaturn V Dwg Sht 8 of 19 Rev 04.pngSaturn V Dwg Sht 9 of 19 Rev 04.pngSaturn V Dwg Sht 10 of 19 Rev 04.png
 
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Amazing detail, as always from you.

I am still a little slow on the draw.

As I understand the design, ALL five first stage motors are "manifolded" to the central core tube.

within this tube is a spool with a hollow center which holds the fuses.

the zero delay first stage booster motors will burn out first, with the breakthrough gases shooting up the manifold to light the fuses, the excess gas is vented through the hollow center of the spool to prevent premature ejection of the spool.

the delay first stage motors will fire three seconds later, and THEIR combined ejection charges forcibly eject the spool.

the kinetic energy from the ejected spool pulls the chute or chutes out of the first stage.

Have I got it right?

If so, there are some assumptions which may or may not be accurate in practice.

1. The force of the zero delay motors burn through, vented through the spool, is INSUFFICIENT to eject the spool.
Maybe. I haven't tested it, but I believe the force from zero delay burn through is less than an ejection charge (@BEC probably know the answer to this, I dunno, is the powder of the ejection charge different from the propellant?) I know zero delay motors CAN eject chutes, so their blow throw force is not negligible, even if it IS less than a formal ejection charge.

2. The force of the positive delay motors' ejection charges IS sufficient to eject the spool despite the hollow center which vents the zero delay burn through AND will also at least partially vent the positive delay motors.
Again, maybe. I am more a "black or white" person on ejection events, the idea that one set of motors isn't strong enough to do something but the other set IS strong enough to do something makes me edgy. I'm also not nuts about assuming the kinetic energy of the spool will be sufficient to pull the chutes out, but depends on the mass of the spool and how tightly packed the chutes are.

I still remember Major Fujita, my Japanese instructor in college in 1981, telling me, "KISS- Markel-san" (Keep It Simple Stupid). Disconnect the two outboard positive delay motors from the manifold and duct them straight to the chutes (if space is tight for wadding, use a piston). You can keep the mid-line delay motor where it is, its ejection charge won't help but probably won't hurt anything, although you might as well replace it with a zero delay motor to save weight and prevent a late central ejection charge event from peppering the deployed chutes---although I think this unlikely.) And I think, especially without 3D printing, a three to one duct made from paper tubes is going to be much easier to build than five to one.

But you have demonstrated an amazingly consistent tendency to pull rabbits out of hats, so my unrequested input is likely worth exactly what you paid for it;)
 
Amazing detail, as always from you.

I am still a little slow on the draw.

As I understand the design, ALL five first stage motors are "manifolded" to the central core tube.

3 of the 1st stage motors are in the manifold.​
2 of the 1st stage are not in the manifold​
Check out the "Motor Mount With Triple Tube Header and Launch Lug" detail in the upper left corner below.​

Saturn V Dwg Sht 7 of 19 Rev 04.png



Amazing detail, as always from you.

I am still a little slow on the draw.

As I understand the design, ALL five first stage motors are "manifolded" to the central core tube.

within this tube is a spool with a hollow center which holds the fuses.

the zero delay first stage booster motors will burn out first, with the breakthrough gases shooting up the manifold to light the fuses, the excess gas is vented through the hollow center of the spool to prevent premature ejection of the spool.

the delay first stage motors will fire three seconds later, and THEIR combined ejection charges forcibly eject the spool.

the kinetic energy from the ejected spool pulls the chute or chutes out of the first stage.

Have I got it right?

Here's the 1st stage event sequence:​
  • The (3) C11-3 motors burnout 1st, and the 3 second delay begins
  • 0.8 seconds later the D12-0's burnout and ignite the fuse, which ignites the 2nd stage motors
  • 2.2 seconds later the C11-3's ejection charges eject the spool. Estimated speed of 1st stage at chute deployment is 24 mph.

1st Stage Events.png



Amazing detail, as always from you.

I am still a little slow on the draw.

As I understand the design, ALL five first stage motors are "manifolded" to the central core tube.

within this tube is a spool with a hollow center which holds the fuses.

the zero delay first stage booster motors will burn out first, with the breakthrough gases shooting up the manifold to light the fuses, the excess gas is vented through the hollow center of the spool to prevent premature ejection of the spool.

the delay first stage motors will fire three seconds later, and THEIR combined ejection charges forcibly eject the spool.

the kinetic energy from the ejected spool pulls the chute or chutes out of the first stage.

Have I got it right?

If so, there are some assumptions which may or may not be accurate in practice.

1. The force of the zero delay motors burn through, vented through the spool, is INSUFFICIENT to eject the spool.
Maybe. I haven't tested it, but I believe the force from zero delay burn through is less than an ejection charge (@BEC probably know the answer to this, I dunno, is the powder of the ejection charge different from the propellant?) I know zero delay motors CAN eject chutes, so their blow throw force is not negligible, even if it IS less than a formal ejection charge.

2. The force of the positive delay motors' ejection charges IS sufficient to eject the spool despite the hollow center which vents the zero delay burn through AND will also at least partially vent the positive delay motors.

I get your concerns, makes perfect sense.​
Booster motor staging gasses have some force, just the pressure of the burning motor breaking through the top of the compacted BP will create an increase in pressure in the manifold. That's why I have a path for those gasses to vent out of the 1st stage. See 3.0 in the drawing below.​
Just think about it though. The 2nd through 4th stages weigh 14.8 ounces. The D12-0 would have to push that weight forward, overcome the friction fit of the 1st to 2nd stage coupler and push the 1st stage mass of 13 ounces backwards. Not to mention the drag force on the entire rocket pushing through the air. Could the D12-0 staging gasses do that? Possible, but not probable.​
As long as the fuses ignite and the 2nd stage motors light, I'm not really worried about the 1st stage chute deploying early. Also remember there will the thrust of the (5) 18mm 2nd stage motors firing off directly against the 1st stage spool, pushing it downward into the 1st stage.​
The quick burn fuses burn at a rate of 0.1 to 0.4 seconds/foot. Fuse length will be about 10 inches. Don't blink... you might miss it.​

Saturn V Dwg Sht 4 of 19 Rev 04.png



I'm also not nuts about assuming the kinetic energy of the spool will be sufficient to pull the chutes out, but depends on the mass of the spool and how tightly packed the chutes are.

FYI: The spool doesn't "pull the chute out". The chute is "hot dog bun" wrapped around the spool and the chute separates from the spool as the spool exits the body tube. The nature of a nylon chute, freshly packed, makes the chute literally push it's was out of the spool. Check out the video below. All my chutes say spools b cool.​






I still remember Major Fujita, my Japanese instructor in college in 1981, telling me, "KISS- Markel-san" (Keep It Simple Stupid). Disconnect the two outboard positive delay motors from the manifold and duct them straight to the chutes (if space is tight for wadding, use a piston).

That is the current design, the outer delay motors eject directly against the spool lower centering ring.​

You can keep the mid-line delay motor where it is, its ejection charge won't help but probably won't hurt anything, although you might as well replace it with a zero delay motor to save weight and prevent a late central ejection charge event from peppering the deployed chutes---although I think this unlikely.)

I can't change the center tube motor to a zero delay, unless that motor burns longer than a D12-0. And I can't replace the C11-3 to a D12-0, because that increases the combined propellant weight above the 125 gram NAR limit.​
The spool design is such that the C11-3 ejection charge won't "pepper the chute".​

Is This High Power 001.jpg



And I think, especially without 3D printing, a three to one duct made from paper tubes is going to be much easier to build than five to one.

I enjoy the challenge of making complex tubular structures using old school methods and materials. I pretty much have zero interest in 3D printed components.​

But you have demonstrated an amazingly consistent tendency to pull rabbits out of hats, so my unrequested input is likely worth exactly what you paid for it;)

I truly appreciate your input. It's all good. :computer:

Cropped.jpg
 
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Not sure if this makes any difference, maybe some ground testing would prove it one way or the other. I thought you were going to make a 3 fuse spider web/braid at the booster side to help ensure ignition of the fuse that has the 5 fuse split at the sustainer end. But, again, I have no idea how you would assemble that, maybe just extend the single braided cord fuse lower into the central booster motor mount to reach that one booster motor in the middle of that 3 motor manifold end. With those 3 booster motors going off, I am sure that will be plenty hot through the vented tube to ignite anything in the vented path, looks like a good design you have planned out as is.


Screenshot 2022-12-30 at 12.41.15 PM.png
 
If you need more ejection pressure a touch of BP on top of the red lable motor will do the trick. Blast the 125g rule if you need more thrust to make your rocket safer. Do it! No problem at a high power club launch... ;)
 
Not sure if this makes any difference, maybe some ground testing would prove it one way or the other. I thought you were going to make a 3 fuse spider web/braid at the booster side to help ensure ignition of the fuse that has the 5 fuse split at the sustainer end. But, again, I have no idea how you would assemble that, maybe just extend the single braided cord fuse lower into the central booster motor mount to reach that one booster motor in the middle of that 3 motor manifold end. With those 3 booster motors going off, I am sure that will be plenty hot through the vented tube to ignite anything in the vented path, looks like a good design you have planned out as is.


View attachment 553854

Easy enough to implement. So it shall be written, so it shall be done ;)

As I recall @heada suggested that very same thing, I have since forgotten his advice.

Thank you.
 
This is all awesome.
The one thing I don't understand is what's happening with the 4th stage streamer. The drawings make it look like it's completely outside the 4th stage, so at stage separation the stage will be dragging the streamer behind it under thrust.
 
This is all awesome.
The one thing I don't understand is what's happening with the 4th stage streamer. The drawings make it look like it's completely outside the 4th stage, so at stage separation the stage will be dragging the streamer behind it under thrust.

And you are correct, it pulls the streamer out of the 3rd stage.

The mission is to have 4 stages and the same number of motors as the original Saturn V... and to recover all those stages.​
The plan is to connect the 4th stage streamer Kevlar chord to the 4th stage up near the LES tower. That should increase the chance of not burning thorough the Kevlar. The other possibility is to use a stainless fishing line lanyard instead of Kevlar.​
The advantage of this is the 4th stage will be unstable, and very little altitude will be gained... thus easier to track and recover.​

Or as an alternative, see sketch below, Updated: See sketch in Post 203 Below

Bore the hole in the 4th stage oversized and use the Mylar streamer, wrapped around the motor, as a full body centering ring. Then when the motor ejects out of the back of the 4th stage, it pulls out the streamer.​

Thoughts :dontknow:

4th Stage Recovery.png
 
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I like the alternative better, it seems way more predictable how it's going to behave, and it will also have a flight profile that feels more like a real space craft.

I'm trying to imagine how the version with the dragging streamer will behave, and it seems really complicated. The stage will start out maybe stable-ish because of the conical shape, until it reaches the point where the cord goes tight, which will give it a hard yank away from the stable trajectory. Does it then swing around to a new direction and become stable again until it catches up with the streamer and gets yanked again?

I kind of want you to fly that version and report back to find out what happens...
 
And you are correct, it pulls the streamer out of the 3rd stage.

The mission is to have 4 stages and the same number of motors as the original Saturn V... and to recover all those stages.​
The plan is to connect the 4th stage streamer Kevlar chord to the 4th stage up near the LES tower. That should increase the chance of not burning thorough the Kevlar. The other possibility is to use a stainless fishing line lanyard instead of Kevlar.​
The advantage of this is the 4th stage will be unstable, and very little altitude will be gained... thus easier to track and recover.​

Or as an alternative, see sketch below,

Bore the hole in the 4th stage oversized and use the Mylar streamer, wrapped around the motor, as a full body centering ring. Then when the motor ejects out of the back of the 4th stage, it pulls out the streamer.​

Thoughts :dontknow:

That might rip the streamer the way you have sketched it there. I would attach the Kevlar to the motor, and use a C-wrap of a Z-folded streamer around the motor tube. The streamer will have plenty of time to unfurl. The Z-folds are the width of close to the circumference of the motor tube. Then C-wrap that folded streamer stack with an open seam, more of a typical rear-eject set up. You could even use traditional centering rings and have the streamer just wide enough to fit between them. Challenge will be fitting as much streamer as you can in the small space available, and will it slow down the ballast-weighted payload enough. You could run the Kevlar or a leader line external so that it is attached to the balance point, or a two-point cradle, for a horizontal recovery, that gives you a tad bit more body drag on the way down.
 
Maybe I missed it, but once the first stage ignites the second stage, won't the CP be so far off that it becomes unstable? Wouldn't a significant amount of nose weight be needed? Or is the design as such that the weight is evenly distributed based on where the 2nd stage motors are?
 
Maybe I missed it, but once the first stage ignites the second stage, won't the CP be so far off that it becomes unstable? Wouldn't a significant amount of nose weight be needed? Or is the design as such that the weight is evenly distributed based on where the 2nd stage motors are?

See Post #199 it shows isolated stability calibration for each stage.
 
That might rip the streamer the way you have sketched it there. I would attach the Kevlar to the motor, and use a C-wrap of a Z-folded streamer around the motor tube. The streamer will have plenty of time to unfurl. The Z-folds are the width of close to the circumference of the motor tube. Then C-wrap that folded streamer stack with an open seam, more of a typical rear-eject set up. You could even use traditional centering rings and have the streamer just wide enough to fit between them. Challenge will be fitting as much streamer as you can in the small space available, and will it slow down the ballast-weighted payload enough. You could run the Kevlar or a leader line external so that it is attached to the balance point, or a two-point cradle, for a horizontal recovery, that gives you a tad bit more body drag on the way down.

Thanks Glen, makes sense. I really appreciate your input on this.

4th Stage Recovery Rev 01.png
 
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Cluster Centering Rings

I used Forstener Bits and my scroll saw to make the 1st & 2nd Stage motor mount centering rings.

Instead of laying out the hole pattern on the wood, I merely glued a full scale printout of the ring onto the basswood. This makes locating the Forstener bit much easier. That's the one thing that is tricky about Forstener bits, getting the point of the bit on the c/l.

To make sure the holes lined up I stack drilled them, thus drilling the hole pattern for (2) rings, at one time.

001.JPG002.JPG003.JPG004.JPG005.JPG006.JPG007.JPG008.JPG
 
Stage One Motor Mount Build - Day 01

This mount is for a cluster of 24mm motors. (5) 24mm motors fill a BT-300 tube, so each centering ring is actually made up of four loose 90 degree segments of that ring. Think jigsaw puzzle. And the fit is so tight BT-50 motor tubes have to be used, BT-50H tubes are to large.

I used a 2" long piece of BT-300 tube to use as a fixture to hold the puzzle pieces in place. To ensure the BT-50 motor tubes stay round I slide a spent 24mm motor in each tube. Rubber bands around the outside applies a bit of pressure to keep the pieces parts from moving.

Only the lower segmental ring is being glued in these photos:

000.JPG001.JPG002.JPG003.JPG
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Update #1: Lower ring glue is dry enough to flip the motor mount.... Here's the upper ring, it's also segmental. This ring is a bit oversized. I'll sand the o.d. to size on my wood lathe after I have the rings glued into place.

004.JPG005.JPG
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Update #2. Upper ring glue is dry enough to flip the motor mount.... Here's the other side of the lower ring. I used a custard cup as a spacer to allow the T-300 tube to partially cover the o.d. of the centering ring. This ensures the centering ring doesn't end up glued to the T-300, and gives good access for using a syringe to apply the glue. I also test fit the internal BT-3 launch lug, just to make sure the holes are aligned properly.

006.JPG007.JPG008.JPG
 
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I have not had much opportunity to design, build, or fly model rockets lately, so I am really enjoying you taking the time to share your well thought out work here and I get to learn some new ideas as well.
 
I have not had much opportunity to design, build, or fly model rockets lately, so I am really enjoying you taking the time to share your well thought out work here and I get to learn some new ideas as well.
Feel free to sound off if you have any questions or comments. I always learn something from your posts.

Full disclosure... it was 28 F out in the barn when I made the centering rings today. My wife asked if I was crazy... I said yes. But I knew if I got the rings fabricated I could build most of the first 2 stages, which should keep me busy for quite a while.
 
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